Death: The Next Big Journey?

[Double A]

Exactly...as in nonexistent. But there is no guaranty its the same after death.

In a dead person there is no brain activity.

In a pre-concieved person there is no brain to have activity and, by extension, no brain activity.

It's pretty much the same experience (or lack thereof).

Yes, the fertilized egg is you, as it matures and grows.

And yet, the fertilized egg does not have all of my constituent parts so therefore it is not "me" yet. Heck, it still isn't "me" after basic sentience has been achieved. So at what point do I become "me"? To claim that I become "me" at the point of conception is equating me to a fertilized egg, when I am so much more than that (physically and otherwise).

What, did you think additional body cells (more specifically, the material required to create more of them) appeared out of nowhere?

And by saying you don't gain a form of consciousness until after 7-8 weeks into pregnancy you are merely supporting my point that you can't be unconscious if you don't exist.

You can be not-conscious if you don't exist.

 

[Litovoi]

In a dead person there is no brain activity.

In a pre-concieved person there is no brain to have activity and, by extension, no brain activity.

It's pretty much the same experience (or lack thereof).

Not quite. If you believe that there is an afterlife, then you must also believe that you move on...somehow. The most common explanation for that is souls/spirits. Though the body may not have brain activity, does not mean that the soul has not moved on and does not have consciousness. This of course depends on whether or not you believe in an afterlife. If you don't then yes, the lack of consciousness IS the same as before you were conceived.

And yet, the fertilized egg does not have all of my constituent parts so therefore it is not "me" yet. Heck, it still isn't "me" after basic sentience has been achieved. So at what point do I become "me"? To claim that I become "me" at the point of conception is equating me to a fertilized egg, when I am so much more than that (physically and otherwise).

What, did you think additional body cells (more specifically, the material required to create more of them) appeared out of nowhere?

No, its not equating you to an egg. You must realize the egg is merely there to protect the unhatched baby. The baby actually grows inside of it.

And once again, I bring up the caterpillar and butterfly. Does the caterpillar have wings? No. Does it have a long tongue? No. That does not mean they are not the same being.

Your cells actually grow, then split. The more they split, the weaker they get. Which is why the elderly are more disease prone than the young. Your cells are slowly becoming less and less resistant to disease.

You can be not-conscious if you don't exist.

I admit that you can be nonconscious before being concieved, but merely because that shows a lack of consciousness, conscious or unconscious. I don't think it perfectly explains the pre-birth time due to the fact that something can exist and yet be "nonconscious." If you want proof of that, look at a desk. It exists, yet has no conscious. Therefore, the best term for prebirth is "nonexistent," however, I will admit that nonconscious has some bearing in this, and that a nonexistent being can be nonconscious.

 

[CSolarstorm]

I'm just as freaked about what it was like before I was conceived as I am about what it's going to be like after death. If it is nonexistance, like everyone seems to state so as-a matter-of-factly, then it's like the reverse of clausterphobia. Compared to the rest of all of time, my life is situated between an eternity before I started existing, and an eternity after I exist. This makes it seem just incredibly easy for everything just to float apart, my body to dissipate into vapor, and my mind to cease without the parts that make the phenomenon of consciousness. And the worst thing about it is, I've had a blackout before, and dreams of cessation of existance while sleeping in a hospital. They both leaned toward the oblivion theory. I don't know, I hope there's an afterlife, but it doesn't seem to go with the scientific mindset that everything is transient and can come apart. I'd like to think that this mindset is too simple and arrogant in its obviousness, and that something entirely different than what we sense and fear awaits us after life, something not so bad.

 

[Litovoi]

I'm just as freaked about what it was like before I was conceived as I am about what it's going to be like after death. If it is nonexistance, like everyone seems to state so as-a matter-of-factly, then it's like the reverse of clausterphobia. Compared to the rest of all of time, my life is situated between an eternity before I started existing, and an eternity after I exist. This makes it seem just incredibly easy for everything just to float apart, my body to dissipate into vapor, and my mind to cease without the parts that make the phenomenon of consciousness. And the worst thing about it is, I've had a blackout before, and dreams of cessation of existance while sleeping in a hospital. They both leaned toward the oblivion theory. I don't know, I hope there's an afterlife, but it doesn't seem to go with the scientific mindset that everything is transient and can come apart. I'd like to think that this mindset is too simple and arrogant in its obviousness, and that something entirely different than what we sense and fear awaits us after life, something not so bad.

I'd like to calm your fears, unfortunately, without knowing what truly comes after death, I can't. I can say this however, though it is a natural thing to fear death, its not logical to do so. If you are nonexistent, then you can't feel anything, so it really isn't bad. You are just...gone. It can be scary to think about this, it can be hard to even force yourself to come to grips with not existing. Without being able to experiance nonextince, we cannot possibly hope to understand what its like. If there is an afterlife, well, there are many theories on that. Pick one and put your faith in it, at least it keeps you from thinking of the alternative.

 

[Double A]

Not quite. If you believe that there is an afterlife, then you must also believe that you move on...somehow. The most common explanation for that is souls/spirits. Though the body may not have brain activity, does not mean that the soul has not moved on and does not have consciousness. This of course depends on whether or not you believe in an afterlife. If you don't then yes, the lack of consciousness IS the same as before you were conceived.

^And hence, you have my reasoning for not being afraid of being dead.

No, its not equating you to an egg. You must realize the egg is merely there to protect the unhatched baby. The baby actually grows inside of it.

In that case, it would be comparing me to the contents of said fertilized egg.

Your cells actually grow, then split. The more they split, the weaker they get. Which is why the elderly are more disease prone than the young. Your cells are slowly becoming less and less resistant to disease.

TIL.

Still, though I'm no biologist, I'm sure that material for growth doesn't spontaneously appear out of nowhere. I don't know much about chemistry, but I'm fairly certain that this material had to come from the outside.

 

[Zachmac]

I'm not really going to debate, I'll just post my thoughts.

I don't believe in life after death. I convinced myself for a week or two after my dog died, but my beliefs went back to normal after I got used to her absence. Unless there is evidence of a "soul" or "spirit", I will not believe in it.

I'm not afraid of dying, but that's because I feel safe. If I found out I didn't have much longer to live, I'd be pretty freaked. I'm not as upset by other people's deaths, though, mostly because they just seem so distant to me. The only person close to me that ever died was my pet dog, of old age. If my little sister died, though, I'd probably change my beliefs for more than a few weeks. I'm more afraid of her death then my own, actually, it just feels more likely to happen. She's kind of a ditz, and spends a lot of time in town. Sometimes when I go with her, I'd have to remind her to look before she crosses a street, which see only seems to do when it's busy. She rarely tells me when she plans to stay in town for two long, and would often come back at 6, were I'm starting to get a little stressed. Overprotective? Not really, I'd probably walk her home from school if I was, I just get a bit nervous sometimes.

Anyway, beliefs in afterlifes is anther reason I respect peoples religions. They often have morals, or are coping mechanisms. Experiencing my dog die, I did adopt just one little part of Christianity for a couple weeks, though I'm currently 100% non-religious.

 

[Litovoi]

In that case, it would be comparing me to the contents of said fertilized egg.

In a way, yes, because the contents do eventually become the baby chick/platypus.

Still, though I'm no biologist, I'm sure that material for growth doesn't spontaneously appear out of nowhere. I don't know much about chemistry, but I'm fairly certain that this material had to come from the outside.

I never said it spontaneously appears out of nowhere. I'm not a biologist either, but I'm pretty sure the cells use food and drink to create more cells. No matter what they use for energy/material, though, they DO split, this has been confirmed and explains the growth of all living organisms.

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/handbook/howgeneswork/cellsdivide

 

[Double A]

In a way, yes, because the contents do eventually become the baby chick/platypus.

But, as I've already said, I'm so much more than the contents of a fertilized egg, physically and otherwise.

I never said it spontaneously appears out of nowhere. I'm not a biologist either, but I'm pretty sure the cells use food and drink to create more cells. No matter what they use for energy/material, though, they DO split, this has been confirmed and explains the growth of all living organisms.

So we agree that even beyond conception external material is being used to "build" (for lack of a better word) "me", which means that saying that I become "me" upon conception is awfully arbitrary.

 

[Litovoi]

But, as I've already said, I'm so much more than the contents of a fertilized egg, physically and otherwise.

You may be more, yet it is still you, merely a not-quite-fully-formed you.

So we agree that even beyond conception external material is being used to "build" (for lack of a better word) "me", which means that saying that I become "me" upon conception is awfully arbitrary.

By your logic, if you take one pile of play-do, and a small piece of play-do of the same color, the original, larger play-do piece wasn't considered play-do(you) until the smaller speck(extra skin/parts) was added.

By that same logic, if you cut off your arm and replaced it with a prosthetic arm, you would no longer be "you."

And although the original pieces(the sperm and egg) existed before you were formed, doesn't mean "you" existed before you were formed. The ingrediants were there, but they were JUST ingrediants. Saying they were you before you even formed is like saying that flour, eggs, and milk is a cake.

...

Also, this original thread was about death, which I think we are getting off-topic from it. Do you think we should create a new thread to continue this discussion?

 

[Double A]

^Don't bother. I forgot what I was arguing anyway.

 

[Litovoi]

^Don't bother. I forgot what I was arguing anyway.

Well it was an interesting conversation. Most people I know wouldn't understand what we were discussing.

 

[Notalwaysbalckanddwhite]

"Do not pity the dead, pity the living. And above all, pity those without love." ~ Albus Dumbledore. This is how I look at it.