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Delta Episode Discussion

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MerCurry

Functioning Idiot
Speaking of milking something that doesn't have milk, my god, PokeMultiverse. So many possiblies, man.

Just finished the Delta Episode an hour ago and pretty much read this thread to get caught up in the discussion. The Multiverse idea is a juicy one to me, seeing I like Multiverse concepts and, well, I fanwank too much for my own good--yeah. Seeing my beloved franchise gain one is pretty sweet. I just wonder if they're going to follow through with this, probably not besides hints, but it would be cool if D/P/P remakes deal with this a tad more.

Have a "Distortion Arc", have the set up of Giratina mucking up the Mega-'Verse and Poke-'Verse, explain the concept more, and profit.

Oh, how I love, "Slightly Unreadable" GameFreak.
 

Ulicies

Mild Monk
Where in ORAS did it imply that the events in Hoenn took place years before XY? I never noticed anything to hint toward this. I did notice lots of shout-outs to Kalos, but nothing implying a time or date.

You seriously need to learn how to accept other people's opinion. What you call a throwaway line isn't a throwaway line to me because it had a huge impact in the timeline. It was a line said by one of the most relevant characters in one of the most relevant quests of the game. So forgive me if i do not consider this a throwaway line. Anyway, it wasn't the only reason why i hated the delta episode, i also hated the dialogue, the characters and the whole mega universe idea, but i'm not even going to waste my time saying why i disliked because i know you're not here to hear other's people opinion and see their point of view, but only to bash them for thinking something different from you.
I think everyone is blowing this Mega-verse and alternate universe theory out of proportion based on that one line. What Steven REALLY meant by the line was simply the idea of "what if Kyogre was awoken instead of Groudon?" Basically giving credence to the different game versions, rather than implying that the 6th generation is kickstarting its own timeline.
 
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Where in ORAS did it imply that the events in Hoenn took place years before XY? I never noticed anything to hint toward this. I did notice lots of shout-outs to Kalos, but nothing implying a time or date.
I think it's because of all the mentions of Kalos without any reference to the events of X/Y that point towards this. If it was after X/Y had happened there were points were it would have been relevant to mention them
 

BCVM22

Well-Known Member
But nothing happened during the events of X/Y that would have necessarily been known in Hoenn. That the NPCs in OR/AS don't make specific reference to any of those events isn't necessarily an indicator of chronology.
 

Ulicies

Mild Monk
I think it's because of all the mentions of Kalos without any reference to the events of X/Y that point towards this. If it was after X/Y had happened there were points were it would have been relevant to mention them
Everyone who mentioned Kalos was just giving general trivia, as opposed to being a person connected with local Kalos events. Plus, it would get tiresome to hear every reference to Kalos end with "ZOMG BY THE WAY DID YOU KNOW AZ RETURNED."

Just because they failed to reference the events of XY doesn't mean it has yet to happen. When was the last time, other than B2/W2, where NPC's directly referenced the end-game events of a different game?
 
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Illusio

Well-Known Member
Where in ORAS did it imply that the events in Hoenn took place years before XY? I never noticed anything to hint toward this. I did notice lots of shout-outs to Kalos, but nothing implying a time or date.
Mr. Bonding's origins are explained in ORAS, so they have to take place before XY.
 

Ulicies

Mild Monk
Mr. Bonding's origins are explained in ORAS, so they have to take place before XY.
So wait, a character that is solely created for the sake of a non-canon game mechanic automatically means XY's canon has to follow suit? I totally disagree.
 

GoldCyndaquil

Shiny Hunter
But nothing happened during the events of X/Y that would have necessarily been known in Hoenn. That the NPCs in OR/AS don't make specific reference to any of those events isn't necessarily an indicator of chronology.
Not to mention that we know XY takes place in the same time period as BW/BW2 (or their AU versions) and we see in ORAS that the Royal Unova is still being built by the model in the Oceanic Museum.

So wait, a character that is solely created for the sake of a non-canon game mechanic automatically means XY's canon has to follow suit? I totally disagree.
How? We see Mr. Bonding in XY...we seen how he came to be in ORAS...clearly ORAS must happen before XY.
 

Illusio

Well-Known Member
So wait, a character that is solely created for the sake of a non-canon game mechanic automatically means XY's canon has to follow suit? I totally disagree.
And what says that the O-Powers are non-canon? Nothing says that they don't exist in the world of Pokémon, they just have an effect for the player to use. Also, nothing says that Mr. Bonding is a non-canon character either, much less that he doesn't exist at all in the game's universe. So I don't see the point of ignoring him, especially when they took the time to explain his origins in the first place.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
I think everyone is blowing this Mega-verse and alternate universe theory out of proportion based on that one line. What Steven REALLY meant by the line was simply the idea of "what if Kyogre was awoken instead of Groudon?" Basically giving credence to the different game versions, rather than implying that the 6th generation is kickstarting its own timeline.
Err, that's not what people are talking about when they talk about an alternate universe theory. They're talking about Zinnia's claim that there exists an alternate universe identical to ORAS save for the fact that the Ultimate Weapon was never created (so, RSE). Taken to its logical conclusion, that means that all non-Mega Evolution games are one timeline (though Endolise summarized that part pretty perfectly), and XY and ORAS are a separate timeline. I can't even remember off the top of my head what Steven quote you're talking about.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
Err, that's not what people are talking about when they talk about an alternate universe theory. They're talking about Zinnia's claim that there exists an alternate universe identical to ORAS save for the fact that the Ultimate Weapon was never created (so, RSE). Taken to its logical conclusion, that means that all non-Mega Evolution games are one timeline, and XY and ORAS are a separate timeline. I can't even remember off the top of my head what Steven quote you're talking about.
I think this is what people are taking out of hand. Like, this is all that they've really implied with this alternate universe theory, all this talk about "this makes the Pokemon continuity a huge mess!!" is nonsense since more or less we've got Mega Evolution timeline and non-Mega evolution timeline, nothing more. Everything beyond that is just the fandom taking their interpretations of a theory (keyword: theory), and we've got some people thinking their interpretation is some sort of 100% confirmed plot line. I actually like this theory being kept at the ambiguous level since it inadvertently acknowledges each game without trying to piece it together into 1 concrete timeline, which answers way more questions than it raises.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
I think this is what people are taking out of hand. Like, this is all that they've really implied with this alternate universe theory, all this talk about "this makes the Pokemon continuity a huge mess!!" is nonsense since more or less we've got Mega Evolution timeline and non-Mega evolution timeline, nothing more. Everything beyond that is just the fandom taking their interpretations of a theory (keyword: theory), and we've got some people thinking their interpretation is some sort of 100% confirmed plot line. I actually like this theory being kept at the ambiguous level since it inadvertently acknowledges each game without trying to piece it together into 1 concrete timeline, which answers way more questions than it raises.
Pretty much. It's been getting a bit out of hand with all the, "Well, isn't every playthrough done by every gamer its own alternate universe?" stuff.

For the record, new Type inconsistencies isn't something pioneered by these games. That's been a thing since FRLG made Steel and Dark commonplace despite Gen II's claims to the contrary, so saying ORAS committed some horrible flaw in doing exactly what FRLG did (and claiming that this is the first time it's been done, to boot) a decade ago is a bit weird.
 

Endolise

TengenToppaBoogaloo
That blog entry contains a few significant logical errors.

"In XY Sycamore claimed Mega Evo never happened outside Kalos so far. There’s no way he 'didn’t know' considering everyone walking around with megas in ORAS 5+ years earlier, including the famous Lisia."

- Sycamore doesn't ever say that. Sycamore says only, "And why are there examples of Mega Evolution found only in Kalos?" Depending on where he's putting the emphasis and on how he's using the word "examples," that could be taken several ways (and frankly, I would have found it extremely hard to believe if it *had* only happened in Kalos; there's a centuries-old tower there that's dedicated to the concept; surely, at some point in all of those years, somebody took some Stones away to another region). Furthermore, not "everybody" was walking around with Megas in ORAS. Though it is twice as many as in XY, it's still only a handful. And all that that really means is that a few more people in Hoenn had better access to the materials required.

"There’s also that person who in XY states the fairy type is a new discovery, yet lots of in-game characters in ORAS mention it."

- But that's "recent" relative to what? The first CIA drone strike was carried out almost thirteen years ago; would you not still say that drone strikes are a "recent" form of attack in comparison to other methods, or even on their own historical record?

And what says that the O-Powers are non-canon? Nothing says that they don't exist in the world of Pokémon, they just have an effect for the player to use. Also, nothing says that Mr. Bonding is a non-canon character either, much less that he doesn't exist at all in the game's universe. So I don't see the point of ignoring him, especially when they took the time to explain his origins in the first place.
Indeed. Are we now going to start saying that people like Magnus, Baoba, Lisia, and the Frontier Brains are all non-canonical just because they exist solely for the promotion of a side-attraction or feature? I don't think so.
 
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Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
That blog entry contains a few significant logical errors.

"In XY Sycamore claimed Mega Evo never happened outside Kalos so far. There’s no way he 'didn’t know' considering everyone walking around with megas in ORAS 5+ years earlier, including the famous Lisia."

- Sycamore doesn't ever say that. Sycamore says only, "And why are there examples of Mega Evolution found only in Kalos?" Depending on where he's putting the emphasis and on how he's using the word "examples," that could be taken several ways (and frankly, I would have found it extremely hard to believe if it *had* only happened in Kalos; there's a centuries-old tower there that's dedicated to the concept; surely, at some point in all of those years, somebody took some Stones away to another region). Furthermore, not "everybody" was walking around with Megas in ORAS. Though it is twice as many as in XY, it's still only a handful. And all that that really means is that a few more people in Hoenn had better access to the materials required.

"There’s also that person who in XY states the fairy type is a new discovery, yet lots of in-game characters in ORAS mention it."

- But that's "recent" relative to what? The first CIA drone strike was carried out almost thirteen years ago; would you not still say that drone strikes are a "recent" form of attack in comparison to other methods, or even on their own historical record?
You do know that the fact that you can give another interpretation doesn't make her/his argument invalid, right?

For the record, new Type inconsistencies isn't something pioneered by these games.
Okay, but i didn't say it was??
 
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Endolise

TengenToppaBoogaloo
You do know that the fact that you can give another interpretation doesn't make her/his argument invalid, right?
Well, of course.

What makes their argument invalid is the fact that Sycamore never said what they say he did.
 
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Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
Well, of course.

What makes their argument invalid is the fact that Sycamore never said what they say he did.
You quoted it yourself.
"It's only a hypothesis, but I think the bond between Pokémon and Trainer is the key to this new Evolution. But what is this bond, exactly? And why are there examples of Mega Evolution only in the Kalos region? There's still so much we don't know..."
Your problem is that you think the only interpretation this text can have is the one saying that some mega evolutions are kalos exclusive (which doesn't match with the context AT ALL but whatever) when you can also interpret this speech as "the only examples seen of mega evolved pokemon happened only in the kalos region". Yes, if the later was true, then this could've been changed by someone bringing mega stones and mega rings to the hoenn region, but we all should know by now that ORAS happened before XY, so it doesn't make sense for Sycamore to say that if the mega evolutions were already a thing in Hoenn.

The article you linked and agreed with (unless you only agreed with it in part and didn't say so) did, however, say exactly that.
Not really. He/she said that:
There’s also that person who in XY states the fairy type is a new discovery, yet lots of in-game characters in ORAS mention it. I don’t have a problem with fairy type existing as a mechanic, but they shouldn’t have made any mention of it in the dialogues.
Not that:
new Type inconsistencies is something pioneered by these games.
 
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Endolise

TengenToppaBoogaloo
You quoted it yourself.
"It's only a hypothesis, but I think the bond between Pokémon and Trainer is the key to this new Evolution. But what is this bond, exactly? And why are there examples of Mega Evolution only in the Kalos region? There's still so much we don't know..."
Your problem is that you think the only interpretation this text can have is the one saying that some mega evolutions are kalos exclusive (which doesn't match with the context AT ALL but whatever) when you can also interpret this speech as "the only examples seen of mega evolved pokemon happened only in the kalos region". Yes, if the later was true, then this could've been changed by someone bringing mega stones and mega rings to the hoenn region, but we all should know by now that ORAS happened before XY, so it doesn't make sense for Sycamore to say that if the mega evolutions were already a thing in Hoenn.
The blog states as follows:

"In XY Sycamore claimed Mega Evo never happened outside Kalos so far. "

However, Sycamore does not say that. Sycamore says something else which is much more vague and can be interpreted to mean that, but can also be read in other ways.

Hence, it is only an error if you look at it a certain way, and the blog's complaint that ORAS contradicts XY by showing Mega Evolutions outside of Kalos is invalid, because it was never concretely stated that there weren't. If one chooses to interpret it to mean that there weren't, then that is the interpreter's problem, because they are the one who is insisting that a problem that needn't exist, must exist. No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to read that line so literally.

To give you an analogy, let's take what Sycamore says, and rework it a bit for a moment:

"And why are there examples of clouds only in the Kalos region? There's still so much we don't know..."

If somebody were to say this to you, you wouldn't seriously think that clouds aren't found anywhere else, would you? Not even clouds of other varieties?

Never mind that Sycamore's line is a comparatively inconsequential thirteen-word sentence in an ocean of far more important data and dialogue, so all of the blog's boo-hooing over how it has somehow ruined the Pokémon timeline (which, let's face it, isn't *really* that important to begin with) forever is melodramatic, unnecessary, and highly overblown.


Also, calling particular attention to this:

Your problem is that you think the only interpretation this text can have is the one saying that some mega evolutions are kalos exclusive (which doesn't match with the context AT ALL but whatever)
So, you know what "my problem" is, huh? Odd that the interpretation that you say is mine is not one that I have expressed in this particular thread thus far. Not sure why you feel the need to be so personal, but alright.
 
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Akashin

Well-Known Member
You quoted it yourself.
"It's only a hypothesis, but I think the bond between Pokémon and Trainer is the key to this new Evolution. But what is this bond, exactly? And why are there examples of Mega Evolution only in the Kalos region? There's still so much we don't know..."
Your problem is that you think the only interpretation this text can have is the one saying that some mega evolutions are kalos exclusive (which doesn't match with the context AT ALL but whatever) when you can also interpret this speech as "the only examples seen of mega evolved pokemon happened only in the kalos region". Yes, if the later was true, then this could've been changed by someone bringing mega stones and mega rings to the hoenn region, but we all should know by now that ORAS happened before XY, so it doesn't make sense for Sycamore to say that if the mega evolutions were already a thing in Hoenn.


Not really. He/she said that:
There’s also that person who in XY states the fairy type is a new discovery, yet lots of in-game characters in ORAS mention it. I don’t have a problem with fairy type existing as a mechanic, but they shouldn’t have made any mention of it in the dialogues.
And then followed it up by saying:
These are 2 serious continuity issues that literally ruined the Pokémon timeline for the first time ever after years of maintaining a logical timeline.
These are irrelevant semantics (though vilifying ORAS for something that FRLG did a decade ago is weird regardless) in the scheme of things, however, and Endolise is doing a bang up job of arguing the parts of the blog entry that actually matter. So I'll leave it at that.
 
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