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Delta Episode Discussion

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Pokemon Power

Well-Known Member
To be fair though, assuming if they don't retcon it further, Hoenn is canonically the first region to have had access to Mega Evolution, and probably developed the Mega Gears a lot earlier than Kalos - and the number of characters with Mega Gears (Brendan, May, Wally, Maxie, Archie, Courtney, Matt, Zinnia, Lisia, Aarune, Sidney, Phoebe, Glacia, Drake and Steven) sort of showed that Hoenn is a region full of eager people (Devon already developed Infinity Energy, while you spent the entire of X&Y essentially stopping Lysandre from doing something similar in terms of structure).

Don't forget Kalos' playable characters, as well as Korrina, Lysande and Diantha. That's 20 Key Stones for ya'!!
 
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Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
No, she does refer to the Whismer as her little girl. The only thing is that she seems rather young, and one of the Team grunts implies that she's a teenager, so I don't think it'd be her daughter. I think the reason why the Whismer is referred to her daughter is more as an affectionate gesture to the Pokémon rather then Aster, but I could be wrong on that.

I recall Aster saying "mum" when Zinnia interacted with her at least once during Delta Episode, which kind of freaked me out and made me think that Zinnia was her mother figure. :x
 

GoldCyndaquil

Shiny Hunter
I recall Aster saying "mum" when Zinnia interacted with her at least once during Delta Episode, which kind of freaked me out and made me think that Zinnia was her mother figure. :x

Except Aster said "murr." Which is a perfectly logical thing for a Whismur to say.
 

Krishnath

Dragon Lord
Except Aster said "murr." Which is a perfectly logical thing for a Whismur to say.

One of the times it does indeed say "Mum". If I recall correctly, it is in the Mossdeep Spaceport when it steals the link cable from Matt (who in turn stole it from the Scientists). Zinnia then proceeds to take his power stone.
 

Excitable Boy

is a metaphor
It probably would've made more sense to just hold off on getting the Mega Bracelet until the Delta Episode, but what're you gonna do
 

Krishnath

Dragon Lord
It probably would've made more sense to just hold off on getting the Mega Bracelet until the Delta Episode, but what're you gonna do


Considering that Mega Evolution is important to the story before that, wouldn't really work. Besides, you don't actually get access to it until after you've beaten Norman and Acquired Surf. Which is later than in X/Y. Where you get it prior to the third gym.
 

Excitable Boy

is a metaphor
Considering that Mega Evolution is important to the story before that, wouldn't really work.

a) how
b) why is the gameplay derived from the story instead of vice versa

Besides, you don't actually get access to it until after you've beaten Norman and Acquired Surf. Which is later than in X/Y. Where you get it prior to the third gym.

a) in terms of level and pacing, it's around the same as XY
b) in both instances, it completely breaks a game that didn't need to broken further than it already was
 

Krishnath

Dragon Lord
a) how
b) why is the gameplay derived from the story instead of vice versa
The whole Mega-Evolution/Primal Reversion bit is what the entire story hinges on. >.<

Mega-Evolution is what sets the villains on the path to awaken Kyogre/Groudon in the first place. This is why they go after the orb on Mount Pyre. This is why they steal the friggin sub. It is how they friggin awake the beast. And it is why they lose control over it.

Honestly, it was an improvement over their vague reasoning in the original game. In ORAS they show the whole legend instead of alluding to it via the cave paintings/murals, and they do it in a way that sets up the Delta Episode perfectly.

The Gameplay is not derived directly from the Story, nor is the Story is derived directly from the Gameplay. Both serve the other to make a good game. Mega-Evolution is available after the fifth gym, because GameFreak decided that was the best time to introduce it.
A game that has good story, but poor gameplay will fail. The same can be said about games with good gameplay but poor story. This is particularly true about games in the RPG genre, which ORAS and X/Y is part of.
Do note that most mega-evolutions aren't actually available until after you beat Kyogre/Groudon.
 

Excitable Boy

is a metaphor
The whole Mega-Evolution/Primal Reversion bit is what the entire story hinges on. >.<

Mega-Evolution is what sets the villains on the path to awaken Kyogre/Groudon in the first place. This is why they go after the orb on Mount Pyre. This is why they steal the friggin sub. It is how they friggin awake the beast. And it is why they lose control over it.

that's not about Mega Evolution, though, that's about the legendary Pokemon and their Primal forms specifically; Mega Evolution is only mentioned as how they'll kick your butt in a fight with their Camerupt/Sharpedo and how it's kinda similar in some regards to what they want to do with the Primals

that doesn't require giving the player access to Mega Evolution at all

nor is the Story is derived directly from the Gameplay.

you don't play a lot of Nintendo games, do you

because if your plot is an excuse plot (which it is and ought to be), it's pretty flexible

Do note that most mega-evolutions aren't actually available until after you beat Kyogre/Groudon.

it's not like you can use more than one (which would probably be either your starter's Mega Stone or Lati@s's, both of which are handed to you during the game)
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
Let's just say that ORAS takes place in an alternate universe apart from X&Y where the third version/sequels are part of the ORAS timeline, which saves X&Y Sycamore from looking like the worst professor in Pokemon story for not mentioning Hoenn stuff in X&Y.

...We so need a Pokemon Historia.
 

Krishnath

Dragon Lord
Let's just say that ORAS takes place in an alternate universe apart from X&Y where the third version/sequels are part of the ORAS timeline, which saves X&Y Sycamore from looking like the worst professor in Pokemon story for not mentioning Hoenn stuff in X&Y.

...We so need a Pokemon Historia.

He was distracted by the ladies...

But alternate timelines/universes was the whole point of the plot of the Delta Episode.
 

MetalKing1417

Legend Seeker
I did feel kind of disappointed when Mega Evolution seemed like a cheapened concept in ORAS, at least until the Delta Episode brought more gravitas. During the game, Steven just tosses you an extra Mega Bracelet like it's no big deal, when in XY, it was part of a lengthy story arc to acquire one properly.

Yeah, I feel it would have been better if the scene was slightly tweaked so that when the Lati@s joins you, Steven notices something at the altar like thing behind it, walks up to it, and when it turns out to be a mega item, he gives it to you.

As for the MEga Evolution kerfuffle, I believe aside from the alternate universe plotline, it could be that aside from Rayquaza being the first mega ever, the megas in Kalos were the first to occur in between a trainer and a pokemon (because let's face it, rayquaza is pretty unique as a mega).
 
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RedJirachi

Veteran member
The mention of alternate universes is, actually, a rather genius way to explain the retcons of Pokemon in-universe. "There's a universe where Mega Evolution was never discovered" equally means "there's a universe where pre-Gen VI games are the canon." Which could be expanded to just about every retcon. Every generation could be considered its separate yet somewhat connected universe, and every version of the game its own reality. And for that matter all continuities to join together in one massive multiverse.

I honestly didn't think they'd try to explain these kind of issues without saying "its just a game, you can just relax." They actually made what amounts to a fan theory canon. I wonder if they'll do so for other aspects, like say certain unoffical Pokemon relations. This also may go to explain why Pokemon known to be one of a kind happen to appear in more than one reason-it is, but you live in a universe where it was there instead of here. So, how many universes are there based off the game alone?

*OG Timeline: The original games, Red/Blue/Green. Their version of Gold and Silver may exist, but Red would be fought with his main team member being a Venusaur, Charizard or Blastoise. Some post-Kanto Pokemon, if they exist here, could have different types and evolutions...for example the Dark type may not be here and Umbreon could be a Ghost who evolves through a Moon Stone or something. For the sake of things, we'll now say that each version is a different universe. So there are three similar universes with this timeline
* Yellow Timeline: First there's Pokemon Yellow, and then 3 years later Gold/Silver/Crystal. All three versions share the events of Pokemon Yellow in common, specifically diverging when Red has the team you see. Pokemon Stadium 2 could be a universe where Red got a different team or something. Whether or not it has Hoenn+ timelines is unclear. Its Groudon and Kyogre may be more docile because of the lack of an ability mechanic
* Ability Timelines: All universes with the Berry and Ability mechanic, but not the Mega Evolution. The Kalos War never happened here. Judging from Birth Island, Deoxys may have crashed much earlier and ended up there. Here are some guesses in what the timelines of this universes are like
** Pokemon FR/LG is concurrent with RSE. 3 years later a Sinnoh game could occur and could've happened, but you would face a Red with a different team. After several years we have B/W(they mention the villanous teams that failed), and 2 years later B2/W2. In B2/W2 of this timeline, Red would probably have a different team
** An unseen Pokemon Yellow, in order to fit with what you fight in HG/SS via Red.
** Assuming there is only one Weather Trio in the universe, then the full events of HG/SS universe does not have the events of the RSE timeline. Since the creation trio control time and space, they can be explained away as being captured in their relative future/past and escaping
* Mega Timeline: The current universe, of Gen VI. Mewtwo was found in Kalos' Unknown Dungeon, with primals existing

Going by this, these are the paths of the following timelines. Note that each independent version would be considered its own timeline
* OG Timelines-Red/Blue/Green(3 timelines)
* GBC Timelines-Yellow-3 years-Gold/Silver/Crystal(3 timelines)
* Ability Timelines A-FRLG/RSE-3 years-Altered HGSS/Canon DPPt-Many years-BW-2 years-B2W2(50 timelines)
* Ability Timelines B-Altered Yellow/RSE without the trio-3 years-HGSS/DPPt-Many years-BW-2 years-B2W2(10 timelines)
* Mega Timelines(as of now)-XY-Unknown time and order-ORAS(4 timelines)

So by my calculations there are 70 different game timelines. So what about the anime? Well for starters we know that the movies, with the exception of the first and 16th movie aren't canon because they aren't mentioned in the main storyline. However those two movies serve to form a contradiction-they have two different Mewtwos. It is impossible for them to co-exist, since Mewtwo's existence was kept completely secret. So what if they exist in two timelines? One where Mewtwo was created by Team Rocket, and another where it was made by parties unknown. Another factor is that Serena plays a major role in Ash's childhood, when nothing hinted at this. While retcon is the answer, Zinnia's explanation gives an in-universe answer. Both universes have Ash possessing identical teams, but for other characters things aren't confirmed fully until they re-appear with all their Pokemon

* The original timeline, which goes from the beginning to at least the end of Sinnoh. Mewtwo was created by Team Rocket, and Ash did not know Serena. From it diverges non-canon movies(2-9 and 13), and a three part trilogy of movies(10-12) serving as its own full timeline. So there are 11 timelines
* The Electric Tale timeline, and other mangas of the anime
* The current timeline, where Ash knows Serena and Mewtwo was created by another party. Diancie has a main series connection, so no divergence. M18 may be not referenced, or it may and in this universe it diverged when Rayquaza was born black
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member

Emperor Empoleon

Honor of Kalos
One thing I am curious about with the Delta Episode is the Zinnia battle. Click Dragon Pulse 5 times to win.

Who thought that was fair.

I mean I know you can switch out Ray, but c'mon...
 

Cometstarlight

What do I do now?
One thing I am curious about with the Delta Episode is the Zinnia battle. Click Dragon Pulse 5 times to win.

Who thought that was fair.

I mean I know you can switch out Ray, but c'mon...

That's how I felt, and I did just that....I lost. Second time around, I just blasted the whole team with Dragon Pulse. (I didn't use the Exp share so I was a little under leveled)
 

Krishnath

Dragon Lord
One thing I am curious about with the Delta Episode is the Zinnia battle. Click Dragon Pulse 5 times to win.

Who thought that was fair.

I mean I know you can switch out Ray, but c'mon...

I suspect that was the entire point of the battle, to show just how overpowered Mega_Rayquaza is.
 

Darkella

Member
It was too boring for me..Zinnia is more wild that IrisXD But I laughed so hard, when she summoned Rayquaza and all her gathered key stones were absolutelly useless. Raquaza's expression was like:
Why don;t you mega-evolve?
Lol, I dunno, I wanna eat a meteorite! Don't stop me!You're are not my mymmy!
 

Krishnath

Dragon Lord
It was too boring for me..Zinnia is more wild that IrisXD But I laughed so hard, when she summoned Rayquaza and all her gathered key stones were absolutelly useless. Raquaza's expression was like:
Why don;t you mega-evolve?
Lol, I dunno, I wanna eat a meteorite! Don't stop me!You're are not my mymmy!

Parts of it where pretty funny, but when she suffered a breakdown when Rayray didn't mega evolve was just heartbreaking. She had gone through so much to summon it, and then it didn't work. At that moment you could see that she had given up and was resigned to the fate of Hoenn (and possibly the world) getting destroyed by the asteroid. Fortunately, the PC happened to have the Macguffin that was needed to get Rayray to mega evolve. Which in turn led her to realize that you where more worthy than her to be the Lore Keeper.

Which leads me to the theory that both Brendan and May are descendants of the Draconid people. Likely a branch of them that left the Tribe in ancients past and moved to other areas of the pokeworld. Remember, the game starts with the PC moving to Hoenn from the Jotho region. I am pretty sure that Wallace and the other natives of Sootopolis are such descendants as well, just another branch which were tasked with guarding the Cave of Origin. At least, that seems to be the implication.
 
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