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Delta Episode Discussion

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Endolise

TengenToppaBoogaloo
I mean, I like the idea of all the Pokemon games being my personal journey (granted, it becomes a bit funny when I've beaten two different versions of Team Aqua twice, but hey ho). Having Pearl/SoulSilver/Black etc. being 'non-canon' in a way in these new games feels... off to me. Yeah, those events still happened, but it's no longer my game anymore.
Well how deeply do we probe this? Why does it stop being "your game" when the narrative shifts to another universe, but not when it shifts simply to another person? If we look at it logically, the main character of your Pearl Version cannot possibly be the same person as the main character of your SoulSilver Version. But you gloss over that in order to maintain the pretense that it is *your* single, contiguous journey. Nevertheless, they are an entirely different person in and entirely different place... which is really just what the XY and ORAS protagonists are as well. The only difference being that the "entirely different place" in question is shifted over by one dimension.

Saying that the old games are now "non-canon" is incorrect. In fact it is quite the contrary. Without the multiverse plot point, ORAS would most likely have just overwritten RSE and rendered them non-canonical, just as FRLG did to RGB and just as HGSS did to GSC. The multiverse plot point circumvents that and introduces a way to continue making remakes without eliminating the originals from the canon; in fact, it adopts those games into its own mythos. Instead of ORAS *replacing* RSE and making it so that they never happened, we now know that RSE very much *did* happen (as well as the previously overwritten RGB and GSC games if one extends the plot point to its natural conclusion), just in another universe.

Then again, it's a throwaway line from Zinnia, whose character is such that she might not be 100% accurate anyway, so I just chose to disregard it for my personal canon. Nothing stopping fans who do like the idea using it, but I personally don't. If it ever progresses past that brief mention, though... I might just think that Pokemon has jumped the shark a bit. Sorry.
It is a "throwaway line," if the entire motivation for a character's opposition to a proposed solution and desire to find an alternative can be considered a "throwaway line." That would be like having a movie where somebody proposes to deal with a viral outbreak by burning the entire city that it is spreading in to the ground, and then when the other characters try to explain why that would be horrible, saying that their arguments are just "throwaways."

Moreover, it's not just Zinnia who says that the alternate world exists. She states that this is something that has been observed by the Draconids for generations, through the distortions in the world created by Mega Evolution. It's existence has been documented for a long time.

And, if this is them "jumping the shark," then lay that blame on BW. Those games introduced the concept of multiverses and alternative timelines into Pokémon. *If* the Gen IV games didn't already do that by talking about such things in the PokéDex entries for Porygon-Z and Palkia. All that ORAS did was put the idea a bit more into the limelight and expand on it. And frankly, even then, I don't see how this could really be considered all that "shark-jumping." It's not really that revolutionary. Alternative timelines and universes are fairly common ideas even in non-science fiction media, and I know that I and many others already assumed them to apply within the realm of Pokémon because the games, with their dual-version structure, seemed to lend themselves so naturally to the idea. If anything, I think that it at least pales in comparison to the over-the-topness of Platinum's stoic nihilist villain who wanted to destroy the entire universe and remake it in his image just because he hated the idea of souls, or RSE' villains who wanted to help Pokémon... by destroying an environment that many kinds of Pokémon inhabit.
 
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Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
I was wary of bringing that up. Should've known this would happen. :/

All I'm saying is that personally I feel like making previous stories (as opposed to versions) explicitly in alternate universes feels a little bit.. odd. Not that it's necessarily bad, per se, just a little mind boggling and something not completely necessary to the series. Pokemon does indeed have a lot of weird stuff in it like the Legendaries and the villains et cetera. Having previous games be alternate universes - something which is a little different to say, playing as 'yourself' in two different games as a beginner (which can be headcanoned out of) or the differences between Black City and White Forest (which aren't important to the story) - just feels like a little 'too' much to me, for some reason. As if it's one step away from a reboot, which is something I don't feel the main games need.

The fact that it's Zinnia's main motivation slipped my mind a little, to be honest. X( Anyway, it's more than a throwaway line, I admit. Brief mention of it explicitly being RSE Hoenn would be more precise. I just don't want there to be a big focus on this whole 'Mega and non-Mega universe' aspect, that's all. I don't want it to be more than just a concept, really. That's what I meant by 'jumping the shark'. If they want, they can have their alternate universe thing, but I just don't want it to become a big part of the franchise.

What it boils down to, really, is that I like to play around with the Pokemon canon a little bit, and one of the reasons that Pokemon seems so nice for that is that there are many stories and aspects that are there to do that with. Personally, I don't want to have to split things up into two universes. If that's canon, I can't really change it, and it's okay if someone else likes the idea as well. Maybe I'll warm up to it. Who knows?

Or, short version: I don't mind it if they go 'Well, there's an alternate universe just like the old games!' as a bit of a nod to the fans. It's if the dual universes become more than just a little mention that I'll start having issues.
 
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Sunset Star

The DS Gamer
Good points, actually. AU reveals can sometimes come off as unnecessary plot twists. =/
 

Ace Kenshader

Dreaming sexy
Speaking of Alternate universes and the Delta Episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkm-U7Myh0E

Regarding the theory, it does make sense up to a point, but I don't think XY and ORAS are in their own separate universe, personally I think the different universe theory goes along the line of originals and remakes. And even then, the idea would just add a whole lot of confusion to the pokemon universe outside of the games.
 
Wouldn't it be better to make Deoxys more powerful, even if he is lv80 he is still weak against Rayquaza but he's moves are sick!!!!

and I hope they make Deoxys a Mega Evolution.
 

WishIhadaManafi5

To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
Staff member
Moderator
I haven't gotten to the Delta Episode yet, but I'm curious... how hard is Deoxys to catch? I already used one Master Ball on Groudon. So I'm wondering.
 

Mr. Reloaded

Former enigma
Wouldn't it be better to make Deoxys more powerful, even if he is lv80 he is still weak against Rayquaza but he's moves are sick!!!!

and I hope they make Deoxys a Mega Evolution.
Make Deoxys more powerful how?

Oh course he's weak to Mega Ray, Deoxys Normal has piss poor defenses, and Mega Ray has increased offensive.

I haven't gotten to the Delta Episode yet, but I'm curious... how hard is Deoxys to catch? I already used one Master Ball on Groudon. So I'm wondering.
Deoxys's catch rate is 3 which is really low, so your best bet is to stock up on Timerballs...
 
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Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
I actually waited for Deoxys to use Cosmic Power a few times before damaging it. That way, it didn't faint.
 

WishIhadaManafi5

To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
Staff member
Moderator
Make Deoxys more powerful how?

Oh course he's weak to Mega Ray, Deoxys Normal has piss poor defenses, and Mega Ray has increased offensive.



Deoxys's catch rate is 3 which is really low, so your best bet is to stock up on Timerballs...

Dang :(. Might save the second Master Ball for him. I suck with Timer Balls. Rarely can get them to work.



I actually waited for Deoxys to use Cosmic Power a few times before damaging it. That way, it didn't faint.
Will be keeping it in mind. Would really hate if it fainted :(.
 

Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
Worst case scenario, if it faints, it should be at Sky Pillar if you beat the Elite Four. Not the most ideal situation, granted, but at least it saves you having to nab Rayquaza again first...

(Seriously, why can't you save after beating Zinnia the second time? It would make things a lot easier...)
 

WishIhadaManafi5

To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
Staff member
Moderator
Worst case scenario, if it faints, it should be at Sky Pillar if you beat the Elite Four. Not the most ideal situation, granted, but at least it saves you having to nab Rayquaza again first...

(Seriously, why can't you save after beating Zinnia the second time? It would make things a lot easier...)
Yea that's good.

That makes no sense. Unless they did it to make it more of a challenge, but tbh, it sounds like more of a hassle.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
I'd say the ideal situation is to KO Deoxys immediately and save it for Sky Pillar later. That way you can actually save and reset for Deoxys much more leisurely, as well as bring things that can make catching it much easier, such as having a Heal Block user to prevent Recover. Considering you're forced to lead with Mega Rayquaza in the first fight it's kind of hard to not KO it anyway, to the point where I almost wonder if KO'ing it there was the intended scenario.
 

WishIhadaManafi5

To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
Staff member
Moderator
I'd say the ideal situation is to KO Deoxys immediately and save it for Sky Pillar later. That way you can actually save and reset for Deoxys much more leisurely, as well as bring things that can make catching it much easier, such as having a Heal Block user to prevent Recover. Considering you're forced to lead with Mega Rayquaza in the first fight it's kind of hard to not KO it anyway, to the point where I almost wonder if KO'ing it there was the intended scenario.
Good point. I'll be keeping that as a back up in case things go sideways.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
I'd say the ideal situation is to KO Deoxys immediately and save it for Sky Pillar later. That way you can actually save and reset for Deoxys much more leisurely, as well as bring things that can make catching it much easier, such as having a Heal Block user to prevent Recover. Considering you're forced to lead with Mega Rayquaza in the first fight it's kind of hard to not KO it anyway, to the point where I almost wonder if KO'ing it there was the intended scenario.
Everyone keeps on saying that people should do this. In my opinion (which I know is not common), I was caught up in the mood of the Delta Episode. Deoxys was like the final boss and I didn't want it to end in just one Dragon Pulse, so I kept at it until I caught it. I feel like just defeating it and catching it later ruins the "feel" of everything that's going on. It's the same for Groudon/Kyogre.
 

Vale_Star

Shiny Huntress
I'd probably wait it out until Deoxys used up all 10 PP for Recover then get it, but that's just me. I seem to have better luck with brick walling the legends. Only lost Terrakion to a Struggle in OR so that's the only draw back.
 

Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
Everyone keeps on saying that people should do this. In my opinion (which I know is not common), I was caught up in the mood of the Delta Episode. Deoxys was like the final boss and I didn't want it to end in just one Dragon Pulse, so I kept at it until I caught it. I feel like just defeating it and catching it later ruins the "feel" of everything that's going on. It's the same for Groudon/Kyogre.
I did the same. The advice to knock it out later is probably suited for competitive battlers who'd want a particular natured Deoxys and don't want to go through 15mins of battles/cutscenes to get the one they want. People who aren't fussed about that kind of thing can just catch it right away if they so desire.
 

Kataphrut

Well-Known Member
ExtremeSpeed doesn't make Deoxys faint, so folks looking to catch him during the space battle have that as an option.

It's kind of a shame how easy it is to end that fight quickly after the awesome buildup, even if you didn't cheese it with a Master Ball like I did. With both Deoxys and the preceding fight against Zinnia, the only way to make the most of the climax is to go easy on Mega Rayquaza. I reckon the fight with Zinnia should have come before catching Rayquaza. Maybe it could have been a fight for the honour of doing the deed, plus she'd make for a pretty tough final boss if you didn't have Rayquaza.

I only just completed Delta Episode so I'm not familiar with all the plot speculation yet, but do we know why Zinnia acts like such a loony during her battles? That pose she makes at the start combined with the facial expressions creeped me out.
 

Genos

BOCW
I only just completed Delta Episode so I'm not familiar with all the plot speculation yet, but do we know why Zinnia acts like such a loony during her battles? That pose she makes at the start combined with the facial expressions creeped me out.
I won't lie that creeped me out too.
 

Cometstarlight

What do I do now?
I won't lie that creeped me out too.
As soon as I started battling her and I saw that, "Oh crap, this girl's crazy; chick's insane."

On that note, I've seen pretty mixed results on whether people like Zinnia or not. Personally, I didn't like her all that much, but I didn't hate her. She just got on my nerves a little.
 

Rio!

Composer
I'd say the ideal situation is to KO Deoxys immediately and save it for Sky Pillar later. That way you can actually save and reset for Deoxys much more leisurely, as well as bring things that can make catching it much easier, such as having a Heal Block user to prevent Recover. Considering you're forced to lead with Mega Rayquaza in the first fight it's kind of hard to not KO it anyway, to the point where I almost wonder if KO'ing it there was the intended scenario.
Honestly, I think that was the point, seeing as this Deoxys/Rayquaza scenario was the main that aligned to the anime *I think*.
It would partly explain why the Rayquaza you get is high-leveled in the first place. ;o

Zinnia also creeped me out as well, I wan't that much of a fan. Loved her design, but otherwise? Meeh.
 
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