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Delta Episode Discussion

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Krishnath

Dragon Lord
Yeah the title seemed to be passed down over generations, I wouldn't be surpries if Zinnia's grandmother was the current Lorekeeper in her younger days. But can you show me a quote or when she says that the previous Lorekeeper had a sudden death, becaue I don't really remember that and I can't find anything that suggests it in neither Zinnia or her grandmother's dialogue. To me it would be very odd if Aster was Zinnia's predecessor since Zinnia treats her like a child.


Well yeah it's not stated that the MC does not become a Lorekeeper, but it isn't exactly stated that they do either. The problem lies more with saying that the MC is a Draconid. Zinnia saying that she has one more mission to fulfill as the last Lorekeeper of the Draconids would refer to her being the end of the line in everyday speach and fulfilling the Draconids' prophercy. If she meant that you were a Draconid as well saying "latest", "current", or just saying "a" Lorekeeper of the Draconids would be much more proper.

Of course it is possible that the Draconids spread to other regions as well. But to say that the MC is a decendant of Draconids that moved to Olivine is a fan theory at best. For all we know Draconids only refers to the clan in Meteor Falls, since Wallace refers to himself as a Sootopolitan when testing if you're ready to enter Sky Pillar. The player is obviously the very best because of gameplay. That's true in all of the pokémon main series games, using that to determine that they are Draconids is reaching. I think the only time they have even been close to explain it is in BW where the MC is seen as some sort of spiritual successor of one of the two brothers depending on version, but them actually having any blood relation is not mentioned at all. (Also I severly doubt that Steven is a Draconid since his family doesn't seem to know anything about them at all). My point was that in your original post you stated that the MC is a Draconid when that's just a fan theory of yours.
A wise man once said that there are no coincidences in video games, and there are way to many coincidences in the game to make the PC anything other than a draconid. Let's list them shall we?
Coincidence #1: An empathic dragon seeks out the player character because its mate is in trouble (the Lati's) so that the PC can defend it from the villain team. The defended dragon then joins the PC's team without the PC needing to battle it first.
Coincidence #2: The elderly couple on top of Mt. Pyre (likely draconids themselves due to the draconid peoples heavy involvement with the holy sites of Hoenn) then entrusts a child with one of the two orbs after the other has been stolen. Something they have no logical reason to do.
Coincidence #3: The player character then fights and either defeats or tames what is essentially an eldritch abomination capable of wiping out all life in Hoenn if not the world when the villains awaken it (Kyogre/Groudon fight).
Coincidence #4: Zinnia strings along the Player Character for the entirety of the Delta Episode, often going out of her way to do so to ensure that the player will be present when she summons Rayquaza.
Coincidence #5: Zinnia teaches the PC about the actual history of Hoenn, and the Draconids role in said history. Something, again, she has no reason to do unless she was preparing you to take over her job as Lorekeeper once she was gone. A role that, mind you, is essentially a tribal shaman for the draconid people. A role that anyone with even passing knowledge of anthropology can tell you is rarely given to outsiders.

Zinnia went to Sky Pillar to die while saving Hoenn, and she was grooming the PC to be her replacement.

It may only be a theory until someone officially confirms it, but the evidence is to great for it to be a mere coincidence.
 

Endless

Sun God ☉
A wise man once said that there are no coincidences in video games, and there are way to many coincidences in the game to make the PC anything other than a draconid. Let's list them shall we?
Coincidence #1: An empathic dragon seeks out the player character because its mate is in trouble (the Lati's) so that the PC can defend it from the villain team. The defended dragon then joins the PC's team without the PC needing to battle it first.
Coincidence #2: The elderly couple on top of Mt. Pyre (likely draconids themselves due to the draconid peoples heavy involvement with the holy sites of Hoenn) then entrusts a child with one of the two orbs after the other has been stolen. Something they have no logical reason to do.
Coincidence #3: The player character then fights and either defeats or tames what is essentially an eldritch abomination capable of wiping out all life in Hoenn if not the world when the villains awaken it (Kyogre/Groudon fight).
Coincidence #4: Zinnia strings along the Player Character for the entirety of the Delta Episode, often going out of her way to do so to ensure that the player will be present when she summons Rayquaza.
Coincidence #5: Zinnia teaches the PC about the actual history of Hoenn, and the Draconids role in said history. Something, again, she has no reason to do unless she was preparing you to take over her job as Lorekeeper once she was gone. A role that, mind you, is essentially a tribal shaman for the draconid people. A role that anyone with even passing knowledge of anthropology can tell you is rarely given to outsiders.

Zinnia went to Sky Pillar to die while saving Hoenn, and she was grooming the PC to be her replacement.

It may only be a theory until someone officially confirms it, but the evidence is to great for it to be a mere coincidence.
Many of those points can be explained by gameplay reasons. If it didn't happen then there wouldn't be a game to play. Especially point 2 and 3 which were true in the original RSE as well despite there being no such thing as Draconids. In literally any game besides the Kanto games the MC defeats a legend during the climax. The protagonist in DPPt defeats what is probably the strongest legendaries in-universe, as well as Cynthia telling them about the myths for no particular reason either. The reason for it being possible for the MC to get all this info as well as to do those things are usually just that they have so "strong bonds" with their pokémon, even Steven uses that reason in both ORAS and RS. It's not rare in pokémon games(or nearly any other game for the matter) that the MC gets special treatment. For example characters like Steven gives tons of gifts to the MC for no appearant reason.
Zinnia taking the MC under her wing, might also be because see saw that the MC saved he world and has become champion, so she obviously knows the MC is strong as well as having good intentions.

Believe it as much as you want. I don't believe it but I can't prove that it is wrong either. I'm just saying that those events don't directly prove that it's true since similar cases exists in nearly every game and that you shouldn't state it as a fact like you originally did.
 
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Thunder124

New Member
Hello I'm new. So what was your favorite moment in the delta episode? Mine was when Rayquaza pierced through the meteorite in space.
 

Mr. Reloaded

Former enigma
Hello I'm new. So what was your favorite moment in the delta episode? Mine was when Rayquaza pierced through the meteorite in space.
When Zinnia left the game for good. Potentially decent character handled wrong.

But in all seriousness, probably the bit where you encounter Deoxys.
 
Having read the debate in the last several posts about whether the player character is a Draconid, I have a few things to point out about your theory-building practices, Krishnath.

It is far from illogical that such a group would move to and settle in Jotho, which incidentally is where the Protagonist is from.
The use of the word "incidentally" here implies you know about some actual data in-game to the specific effect that some Draconids actually did move to Johto. You would need to present such evidence. This is even a bit of a side-note, but I took it upon myself to check and see whether it is reasonable to theorize that Clair is related to Wallace (something I thought might be behind your suspicion that Wallace is one). It would support your high level of confidence that Draconids settled in Johto, but subjecting the theory to proper scrutiny reveals one rather serious problem.

First, the games indicate she is related to Lance, though I cannot remember the exact text. Regarding Lance, a quote preserved in the Fame Checker of FR/LG reports this important detail: "Lance's grandfather is thought to be the elder of a famous clan of dragon masters." The fact that the clan of dragon masters is famous would tend to indicate that they are not the Draconids, as the Draconids appear to be quite the opposite. However, it is perhaps possible to explain that on the basis of differences between universes.


Only a handful of other characters in ORAS reach the same level, one is the alternate protagonist (obviously), one is Wally, and the rest are either a confirmed Draconid (Zinnia), or suspected as such (Wallace, Lisia, Steven)..
This is a decidedly weak point of your theory. Put in plain English you have just stated that the evidence that a strong bond is a trait tending to distinguish a character as a Draconid includes precisely one confirmed instance of a character who is a Draconid. If even one of those you label "suspected" turn out not be, then the counterexamples equal the confirming examples. That would eliminate its usefulness for helping distinguish an individual like the player character as a Draconid...unless that point is salvaged by labeling Wally or the alternate protagonist a Draconid. And that's not even bringing in other player characters said to have a strong bond with their Pokémon, including the one from XY.


The elderly couple on top of Mt. Pyre (likely draconids themselves
You're doing it again. That's not evidence for the theory of the player character being a Draconid, but rather simply part of your broader theory about which characters in the game are Draconids. If something confirms that these people are Draconids, then it is entirely reasonable to use the broader theory to support the more narrow one.

Something they have no logical reason to do.
Sorry. That won't fly. Not without evidence that these games are the first in the series to be remarkably free of characters doing things with no logical reason in-universe that make more sense from a gameplay standpoint.

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention that one of the biggest examples of this is the fact that just about everybody in these entire series of games leaves their door unlocked and doesn't even seem to remotely care if people come in, maybe pick up items, or maybe even sleep in the bed.

A role that anyone with even passing knowledge of anthropology can tell you is rarely given to outsiders.
Now, see, this makes it look like you aren't aware of bad writing in games and other media, and how this exact sort of unrealistic thing is decidedly common in fiction. Maybe the role of "outsider" is an appealing one for storytellers to create or something. Don't know. I just know it happens.


It may only be a theory until someone officially confirms it, but the evidence is to great for it to be a mere coincidence.
No, the evidence is not that great, and it is definitely not great enough to prove that the player character can't be anything other than a Draconid. Subjecting your theory to scrutiny proper for any theory of that sort leads me squarely to the verdict that this theory is unproven. It is not disproven, but it simply needs a bunch more evidence than what you have provided. If new games add more (the next Kalos games revealing new info about the player character from XY, maybe?), then I would certainly not ignore it.




BTW, just browsing Bulbapedia to find out info on some of these characters leads me to the conclusion that the concept of other universes may be being used in part to specifically eliminate story details that refer to locations in our world. Apparently someone who talks about the PWT in B2W2 hinted that Lt. Surge might be from Unova. So, we may eventually get to the point where America is replaced by Unova, and Guyana, is replaced by some fictional location as the site where Mew was discovered.
 
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Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
Hello I'm new. So what was your favorite moment in the delta episode? Mine was when Rayquaza pierced through the meteorite in space.
Smashing through Zinnia's team with Dragon Ascent/Dragon Pulse was the best part. Or it would have been if I didn't decide to switch Rayquaza out of the fight until Salamence, for the sake of giving it as few non Attack/Speed EV's as possible. The significance of that fight was still the best part of the Delta Episode regardless though.

The Deoxys fight was cool too but Zinna had a better theme and battle theme.
 

Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
Thinking it over, my issue isn't quite with the idea of alternate universes in Pokemon. Because yes, that has happened before to an extent, with Black and White and with the Distortion World as well. It also kind of works as a motive for Zinnia in terms of a 'why push our problems onto other people' type scenario. That said, my issue is with two things:

- It does feel kind of reboot-y to me. If it was just a way of overwriting the original RSE without pushing it aside altogether, maybe I'd be more open to it. If, however, it's splitting Pokemon into a Mega and non-Mega universe, that kind of feels a bit excessive? Maybe it's because of the interconnectivity of the games with transferring (though you can transfer Pokemon back in time from XY and still send over from RSE...), maybe it's because the 4th and 5th gens haven't been remade so declaring them as 'other' to the 6th is sort of weird-feeling. I don't know.

- It's another example of adding something supernatural (an explicit parallel reality, rather than an implicit one in alternate versions that didn't really change the plot, or an alternate dimension that wasn't a direct copy to ours per se) to the series. I guess this is what I kind of meant by jumping the shark a bit? Like, the 3rd and 4th gen were a bit more extreme in terms of their Legendaries and villains, but that was building off what they already had (e.g. Pokemon) rather than adding whole new concepts. If it was just mentioned in the Delta Episode then I wouldn't really mind. But then again, I didn't mind the 'new' ideas of the Ultimate Weapon and AZ in X because I felt it'd be a one-region thing and they still have a big role in Alpha Sapphire. Which makes me worry that they'll keep expanding concepts like the Weapon and alternate realities in the future, when I feel like Pokemon doesn't really need them, and that further focus on elements introduced in XY in a non-Kalos game could make it feel a little less individual. It's the same with the Megas, by the way - I could forgive it this time since it's still new and fit in with the Groudon/Kyogre stuff now, but I'm hoping by the time of the 7th gen that the writers will move onto new things. I'm just afraid that with the Weapon's role in ORAS that they might not.
 

BCVM22

Well-Known Member
If it was just a way of overwriting the original RSE without pushing it aside altogether, maybe I'd be more open to it.
If it absolutely must be taken to mean anything of note, this is all that it means.

It's another example of adding something supernatural (an explicit parallel reality, rather than an implicit one in alternate versions that didn't really change the plot, or an alternate dimension that wasn't a direct copy to ours per se) to the series. I guess this is what I kind of meant by jumping the shark a bit?
Again, to condemn them for people overreacting to a throwaway line is placing blame - and unnecessary blame at that - on a non-guilty party.

It's the same with the Megas, by the way - I could forgive it this time since it's still new and fit in with the Groudon/Kyogre stuff now, but I'm hoping by the time of the 7th gen that the writers will move onto new things.
Just like the other Pokémon mechanics that have been introduced from generation to generation - double battles, new types, different means of evolution, breeding - what indicates that they'll simply "move on" from a very distinct game mechanic that adds a new dimension to the battles?

People are still overreacting to a single, harmless line of dialogue.
 

Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
Yeah... To be honest, that's kind of how I feel as well. I probably wouldn't be worrying so much if there weren't loads of people going 'there are alternate timelines now! What does this mean for the Pokemon universe?' If it was just a Delta Episode exclusive thing, I wouldn't be worrying so much I suppose.

(And by the Mega evolution thing, I meant it being an integral part of the story, not the mechanic itself being part of the games. I'm fine with it sticking around as part of how battles work, but I feel like after Gen 6 is over and done with, it shouldn't be the focus of the plot.)
 
If it was just a way of overwriting the original RSE without pushing it aside altogether, maybe I'd be more open to it. If, however, it's splitting Pokemon into a Mega and non-Mega universe, that kind of feels a bit excessive?
See, I'm not sure, but this sounds like you might have it backwards. If they wanted a normal reboot, they could have done away with the stories from previous games entirely, as it appears some games have "overwritten" previous games before. This is a way for them to do something that is far less excessive than destroying them (that is, saying essentially that none of those happened and that you will have to wait for future remakes that include Mega-Evolution). Instead, this allows the stories in previous games to be put to rest with some degree of honor.

maybe it's because the 4th and 5th gens haven't been remade so declaring them as 'other' to the 6th is sort of weird-feeling.
This actually dovetails quite nicely with something I've been thinking of for the past several days. If the characters of the non-Mega universe (or universes; thinking of the differences between Black and White) exist, just not in the Mega universe, then conceivably they could be brought into the story of the Mega universe at a later point. I can think of no one better for this role than Cyrus, though remakes of Diamond and Pearl might eliminate this possibility.

Which makes me worry that they'll keep expanding concepts like the Weapon and alternate realities in the future, when I feel like Pokemon doesn't really need them, and that further focus on elements introduced in XY in a non-Kalos game could make it feel a little less individual. It's the same with the Megas, by the way - I could forgive it this time since it's still new and fit in with the Groudon/Kyogre stuff now, but I'm hoping by the time of the 7th gen that the writers will move onto new things. I'm just afraid that with the Weapon's role in ORAS that they might not.
Well, since they keep finding ways to incorporate new mechanics, they probably will not be focusing on one thing for many generations. However, in my opinion, events and characters don't get mentioned outside their own games enough. (I'd love to hear more about N, for example.) I think the games/regions before XY tended to be not just individualistic, but almost isolated. Thus if some of these ideas were incorporated in smaller ways (see above), it would give the Pokémon regions a bit more of an integrated feeling, and I think it would be amazing!
 

Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
See, I'm not sure, but this sounds like you might have it backwards. If they wanted a normal reboot, they could have done away with the stories from previous games entirely, as it appears some games have "overwritten" previous games before. This is a way for them to do something that is far less excessive than destroying them (that is, saying essentially that none of those happened and that you will have to wait for future remakes that include Mega-Evolution). Instead, this allows the stories in previous games to be put to rest with some degree of honor.
That's kind of what I mean, though. If it's a way to have the remakes AND the old games exist, then yeah, sure. But I just don't think it should be more than an Easter egg, a little nod to the fans. I feel like having a mythos based around 'there are two Pokemon main-game universes' isn't really needed.

Again, I feel like the fanbase is over thinking this a little bit, and it's becoming overblown. I personally don't want this to be the game-changer a lot of people are saying it is - I'm perfectly happy with it being a little wink-and-nod to those who played the originals.

This actually dovetails quite nicely with something I've been thinking of for the past several days. If the characters of the non-Mega universe (or universes; thinking of the differences between Black and White) exist, just not in the Mega universe, then conceivably they could be brought into the story of the Mega universe at a later point. I can think of no one better for this role than Cyrus, though remakes of Diamond and Pearl might eliminate this possibility.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Team Plasma mentioned in XY at some point? So they still exist. They're just 'other' in the sense that (unless maybe the non-Mega stuff only applies to RSE) we haven't seen the 'new' versions of them yet. So they're in this weird limbo of 'they happened, but we don't know if/how they've changed'. That, combined with the interconnectivity, becomes a little confusing.

Well, since they keep finding ways to incorporate new mechanics, they probably will not be focusing on one thing for many generations. However, in my opinion, events and characters don't get mentioned outside their own games enough. (I'd love to hear more about N, for example.) I think the games/regions before XY tended to be not just individualistic, but almost isolated. Thus if some of these ideas were incorporated in smaller ways (see above), it would give the Pokémon regions a bit more of an integrated feeling, and I think it would be amazing!
Agreed, I'd love to see older characters make cameos and appearances in later games (a la the Looker Episodes) to see what they're up to and stuff. A little interconnectivity between stories isn't a bad thing. I just feel like the main story of each region should be its own thing.
 

Wulava

Chuffed to bits
Staff member
Moderator
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Team Plasma mentioned in XY at some point? So they still exist. They're just 'other' in the sense that (unless maybe the non-Mega stuff only applies to RSE) we haven't seen the 'new' versions of them yet. So they're in this weird limbo of 'they happened, but we don't know if/how they've changed'. That, combined with the interconnectivity, becomes a little confusing.
Regardless of multiverses, same timeline and events occur, but with tiny bit of changes. That's how I see it.

As seen in Pokemon Origins, the events there and the events in FRLG are the same. The only difference is that Fuji was given a major role relating to Mega Evolution.

ORAS kept the original RS plot but instead gave Archie/Maxie the correct orb, then there's Primal Reversion. The plot is basically the same, just expanded. Delta Episode was added to give us more insight about Mega Evolution and to give reference to Emerald.

So, HGSS, DPPt, BW and B2W2 is most likely the same. The Neo-Rocket in the Megaverse might be utilizing Mega Evos to call Giovanni's attention. Cyrus is obviously going to use Mega Evolution in fulfilling his selfish desires. Same with Ghetsis. Also Colress research is obviously Mega Evolution.
 

Endolise

TengenToppaBoogaloo
I only just completed Delta Episode so I'm not familiar with all the plot speculation yet, but do we know why Zinnia acts like such a loony during her battles? That pose she makes at the start combined with the facial expressions creeped me out.
Well, think of it like this. You have a kid who is raised to believe that it is their destiny to one day meet God and save the world from disaster, with the possibility that they will have to sacrifice themselves in the process, just like the Lorekeepers before them. That already is a very unhealthy mindset to instill in them. But then one day, their best friend/girlfriend/sister/daughter/mentor/whoever, basically somebody very, very close to them, dies. This has a devastating effect on them. And now their initial plan to save the world has also failed. With the apocalypse literally looming overhead, their accumulated grief and stress is going to manifest outwardly, and she becomes unhinged, especially when she is allowed to let loose in a battle.

Essentially, she's lost it a bit, due to many factors that took a toll on her and were beyond her control. To somebody who has been made to believe that they will save the world especially, I imagine that that has to hurt. An enormous responsibility was thrust upon her, and the best part of her life died. Really, I think they did a great job in showing the effects that all of that had on her. Much more better-handled than Cyrus, anyway, who's parents' pressuring expectations somehow convinced him that souls were evil and that the entire universe needed to be destroyed and remade in his image.

On that note, I've seen pretty mixed results on whether people like Zinnia or not. Personally, I didn't like her all that much, but I didn't hate her. She just got on my nerves a little.
I think that she is interesting. I don't really like or dislike her, but her characterization and role int he story seem neat to me. She seems off-putting, but I expect that that was the point - she wasn't supposed to be necessarily likable. She's a tragedy-stricken headstrong teenager in the throes of instability, with a giant savior complex on top of that.
 
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(P.O.K.E.M.O.N)

AshXSerena = Canon
Finished the Delta episode and i have to say that i was impressed. Actually the story line from the Delta episode is actually stronger and far more interesting than the main story itself and i love how they throw in deoxys at the end there. Especially when i only had 12 pokeballs left and 1 net ball.

Lucky it only took 2 pokeballs to catch him hahaha! Got so lucky there. Also, love the shipping during the end scene :3
 
Probably because people think it's cool. Because, to be sure, it certainly could result in some seriously cool things! However, it seems many people have it in their mind that some of these possibilities (cool or otherwise) simply must be true. Call it "getting attached to a pet theory" or whatever.
 
Really liked the Delta Episode, found it fun and interesting. So glad they added it in, the original Sapphire was kinda boring post game imo. Accidentally KO'd Deoxys though, so gonna have to beat the E4 again :p
It was alright, I would have prefer a post story where the mascot awakening in the story causes the opposite to appear and the two end up in Sootopolis fighting in Primal forms (with the masgot unobtainable in main story). That way they focus on R/S plot in main game and have the Emerald fight scene in post game. Unfortunately, it didn't happen and we got stuck with this, still okay though.
 

Lorde

Banned
I agree with BCVM22. Why is everyone overreacting to a throwaway line?
Personally, I don't find the parallel dimension theory to be interesting. I didn't take Zinnia's dialogue about that stuff as the word of God either. :x
 

Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
Personally, I don't find the parallel dimension theory to be interesting. I didn't take Zinnia's dialogue about that stuff as the word of God either. :x
To be honest, neither do I. I kind of got worked up about it for a bit because the fuss everyone else was making made me believe it was a bigger deal than it was. It's an Easter egg, nothing more.

While I can't pinpoint the exact reason why it's overblown, something's telling me it may be a similar reason to the 'Blue's Raticate died' thing - overanalysis of a couple of lines/a minor change to the point where it's treated like a major plot point when in reality it doesn't mean that much to the canon as a whole.
 

Autobot N

Autobot
It was alright, I would have prefer a post story where the mascot awakening in the story causes the opposite to appear and the two end up in Sootopolis fighting in Primal forms (with the masgot unobtainable in main story). That way they focus on R/S plot in main game and have the Emerald fight scene in post game. Unfortunately, it didn't happen and we got stuck with this, still okay though.
Stop being such a pessimist. Its an RS remake, not a remake of Emerald.
 
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