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Delta Episode Discussion

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Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
While I can't pinpoint the exact reason why it's overblown, something's telling me it may be a similar reason to the 'Blue's Raticate died' thing - overanalysis of a couple of lines/a minor change to the point where it's treated like a major plot point when in reality it doesn't mean that much to the canon as a whole.
I wouldn't say it's quite the same as the Blue's Raticate theory since that theory is more less making something from nothing. This may be just one line that Zinnia says, though hers is actually direct in regards to what people think it means and has an overall more significant implication on canon if it's true (without actually disrupting the canon either).

I think this is more of a case of "it could mean exactly what people think it means" or it doesn't, and I really can't find anything that makes either side objectively more right or wrong. There's probably no way to know for sure unless they reference it again in the future but I don't think it's conclusively true to say her line means nothing and everyone is overreacting. It could be the case that her words meant nothing but I think it's equally likely that this "multi-universe" is a legit thing they're trying to hint at. They dropped that line so casually that I don't see enough grounds to rule anything out.

For all we know they put that line in specifically for us to do exactly what we're doing now, discuss the significance of what she implied about multiple universes. And purposely leaving it ambiguous without ever touching upon it again in order to further it as a discussion point would be very clever of them.
 
It was alright, I would have prefer a post story where the mascot awakening in the story causes the opposite to appear and the two end up in Sootopolis fighting in Primal forms (with the masgot unobtainable in main story). That way they focus on R/S plot in main game and have the Emerald fight scene in post game. Unfortunately, it didn't happen and we got stuck with this, still okay though.
I'm not saying you're not allowed to have your own opinion.
What I'm saying is that you made your opinion regarding this quite, QUITE clear already at this point. We get it.

Seriously, can't people in general just let this whole thing go already?

Anyway, to stay on topic, and to respond to what was just being talked about, I'm pretty 'meh' (read: 'neutral') about the whole "Alternate Timeline" thing that's revealed during DE. Yeah, it was a neat revelation when we first learned about it. Now, it's not really that much of a big thing as others make it out to be.

What there needs to be now is a Pokemon Historia written, like there was for the Zelda universe.
I actually need this kind of Pokemon book in my life. :)
 

Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
I wouldn't say it's quite the same as the Blue's Raticate theory since that theory is more less making something from nothing. This may be just one line that Zinnia says, though hers is actually direct in regards to what people think it means and has an overall more significant implication on canon if it's true (without actually disrupting the canon either).
I know that the line from Zinnia is canon and the Blue's Raticate thing definitely isn't. I kind of meant in the sense that there's probably some kind of similar mindset which has made people latch onto those ideas and made them grow into some commonly-discussed thing.

It's fine for people to discuss it as a concept, I think, but I feel like people saying that it'll inevitably be followed up in the next games and that 'this changes everything' when it was probably meant mainly to let both RSE and ORAS exist (rather than to create some multiverse mythos that is now an integral part of the Pokemon series) are jumping the gun to say the least. Theories on what Johto, Sinnoh and Unova are like in this timeline/what Kalos would be like in the first would be okay. Trying to say that Z would have it as part of its main plot... that's probably a bit excessive. Again, I feel like it's more a brief nod to the fans that could create discussion as part of it, not really the massive game-changer people are saying it is. I doubt that the plot of further games will be affected by it past a couple more short mentions.
 

Endolise

TengenToppaBoogaloo
It's fine for people to discuss it as a concept, I think, but I feel like people saying that it'll inevitably be followed up in the next games and that 'this changes everything' when it was probably meant mainly to let both RSE and ORAS exist (rather than to create some multiverse mythos that is now an integral part of the Pokemon series) are jumping the gun to say the least.
Quite.

In fact, how would it "change" anything, anyway? The big "multiverse mythos" that those people refer to is effectively... all of the games that we have already played. The story is set in a new universe now, and they are carving out its own history and lore. The Delta Episode gave us a nice nod to the older games, but there is no sensible reason for us to go back to them somehow. It would just be retreading old ground; publishing yesterday's newspaper.
 

mia197

Member
ORAS are Ruby and Sapphire remakes. And not a parallel version or another view of the games. So Ruby and Sapphire are a simpler version of the story, and ORAS extends it and gives us more details. It's like the Odyssey. We can read in detail the epic songs, but we can take a book that will summarize the mythological adventures. For example, the fact of the Frontier Battle is not built yeat, doesnt mean that the protagonist did not participate, but that was a while after the main story. The fact Zinnia not being in the old games does not mean she didnt exist. Same thing for the mega stones. ORAS does not contradict RSE, only complements and adds elements.

About distorted universe, I agree some people are doing a theory, something real. Of course, I have nothing against theories, on the contrary. But still, nowheres stated that this universe without technology is Ruby, Sapphire or Emerald. There is no evidence of that. It could be a universe never mentioned in the games, and that doesn't matter explore it. In addition, there is an official timeline announced by Toshinobu Matsumiya. So the previous games are rather part of the XY universe, and consequently ORAS. The franchise would not officially announce something, then contradict it, because they would rightly lose the trust of fans.

On the other hand, I loved the Delta episode, loved the darker line, the interaction between the characters, the connections with XY, and the fact of being a Post Game that adds something. It would be adorable that other games continue with this more mature line and the post games added something to the plot as well.

On the plus side I think there is no need for a remake of Emerald, because ORAS summarized Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald. I'm more open to Z, since it would be a sequel, like Black and White 2, but still dont think its utterly necessary. A remake of Pearl / Diamond is needed most, as well as more interesting would be to focus on the seventh generation with a good story, interesting characters and a link with the sixth generations plot .Things unexplained could be expanded in the next-generation game, as the discrepancies of Syncamore line; when mega Stones were found and how rare it are.
In the most, besides the remake of the fourth generation games that probably going to be done in a few years, it would be interesting what in the 20 years anniversary a remake of FRed / LGreen / Blue / Red / Green are made, and later Gold / Silver / Crystal.

The first games are good, but compared with others, a little bland and somewhat displaced from other generations. Not because of the gameplay and plot, but because of the technology of the time, which turn out being little "mechanical". It would be great to see further exploration of the plot and characters as in ORAS, and see the connection of all the games, making it clear the relationship between the generations, as was done in XY/ORAS. These remakes could then shut the official storyline, thus giving room for a more linear plot and a better continuation in the nexts generations. Like a story told and developed in chapters.

These Remakes would then be possible to deal more about alternate universes in generation 4 where the main focus is this. And issues like Clair being draconic. Jasmine also appears in the fourth game, which, ironically, like Steven, is a trainer of metal Pokemons. She may have something to do with the Mega Stones and a greater reason to be in Sinnoh. The fact that Steven possibly have a village in Sinnoh and appear in Johto is no coincidence right? Could make clear why the apparitions of these and other characters and give them a greater role in the general pokemon plot.
 
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Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
My guess is the Delta episode is what Game Freak was planning on doing in the original games but had to cut it due to the Columbia disaster.
 
On the plus side I think there is no need for a remake of Emerald, because ORAS summarized Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald. I'm more open to Z, since it would be a sequel, like Black and White 2, but still dont think its utterly necessary. A remake of Pearl / Diamond is needed most, as well as more interesting would be to focus on the seventh generation with a good story, interesting characters and a link with the sixth generations plot .Things unexplained could be expanded in the next-generation game, as the discrepancies of Syncamore line; when mega Stones were found and how rare it are.
In the most, besides the remake of the fourth generation games that probably going to be done in a few years, it would be interesting what in the 20 years anniversary a remake of FRed / LGreen / Blue / Red / Green are made, and later Gold / Silver / Crystal.
Wrong, OR/AS does not summarize Emerald, just Ruby and Sapphire. Delta Episode is not Emerald or represent it in anyway. Although the episode was fine and getting Deoxys was neat, it felt kind of short. I would have prefer a remake of Emerald but it's unlikely to happen as it is trademarked like Grey and Waterblue. Delta Episode is just the postgame for OR/AS and nothing more.
 

AuraChannelerChris

"How did you manage to faint while standing up?"
My guess is the Delta episode is what Game Freak was planning on doing in the original games but had to cut it due to the Columbia disaster.
Spatial paradoxes are a thing in real life?
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
Spatial paradoxes are a thing in real life?
I meant that there were transcripts of the game during production that the Mossdeep Space Center was supposed to be much bigger and have some sort of event that required you to help solve the problem. I first heard about this cut mission back in 2006 I believe. When the Columbia deteriorated upon returning to the Earth's atmosphere, RS were due to be released in Japan and the programmers thought it was in bad taste to have some sort of space mission right after such tragedy that the Center was made smaller and nothing else would happen there. That's why it basically was basically useless in RS. Emerald gave it some new life when Magam took it over but that still wasn't the mission that was cut from RS.
 

BCVM22

Well-Known Member
I meant that there were transcripts of the game during production that the Mossdeep Space Center was supposed to be much bigger and have some sort of event that required you to help solve the problem. I first heard about this cut mission back in 2006 I believe. When the Columbia deteriorated upon returning to the Earth's atmosphere, RS were due to be released in Japan and the programmers thought it was in bad taste to have some sort of space mission right after such tragedy that the Center was made smaller and nothing else would happen there.
Then we can rule out that "theory" entirely. The original Ruby and Sapphire were released in Japan over two months prior to the Columbia disaster.
 
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Endolise

TengenToppaBoogaloo
In addition, there is an official timeline announced by Toshinobu Matsumiya. So the previous games are rather part of the XY universe, and consequently ORAS. The franchise would not officially announce something, then contradict it, because they would rightly lose the trust of fans.
Woah, woah, woah; slow down there. There was no such "officially announced timeline." What you are thinking of was an informal tweet, half of which was in Japanese and the other half in English, that has since been deleted. To call that an "official announcement" would be like saying that my off-hours Facebook post about how to seek assistance in fixing a printer is a part of my employing company's policy. And then half of that post is in French.
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member
I wouldn't say it's quite the same as the Blue's Raticate theory since that theory is more less making something from nothing. This may be just one line that Zinnia says, though hers is actually direct in regards to what people think it means and has an overall more significant implication on canon if it's true (without actually disrupting the canon either).

I think this is more of a case of "it could mean exactly what people think it means" or it doesn't, and I really can't find anything that makes either side objectively more right or wrong. There's probably no way to know for sure unless they reference it again in the future but I don't think it's conclusively true to say her line means nothing and everyone is overreacting. It could be the case that her words meant nothing but I think it's equally likely that this "multi-universe" is a legit thing they're trying to hint at. They dropped that line so casually that I don't see enough grounds to rule anything out.

For all we know they put that line in specifically for us to do exactly what we're doing now, discuss the significance of what she implied about multiple universes. And purposely leaving it ambiguous without ever touching upon it again in order to further it as a discussion point would be very clever of them.
Blue's Raticate wasn't even hinted: all we got was "Raticate was in Blue's team until later, and we don't get an explanation why", so we tried to fill the blanks. The multiverse theory has ground: first, if you bring the shiny Beldum, Steven mentions in another world, he fought a trainer with a black charizard...aka the anime Mega Evolution special. And they mention sending things into another dimension, meaning yes there's parallel worlds. We have yet to see definitively if it applies to other versions of the game, but if they know a bunch of parallel universes there's no reason why it should.
 

Wulava

Chuffed to bits
Staff member
Moderator
Woah, woah, woah; slow down there. There was no such "officially announced timeline." What you are thinking of was an informal tweet, half of which was in Japanese and the other half in English, that has since been deleted. To call that an "official announcement" would be like saying that my off-hours Facebook post about how to seek assistance in fixing a printer is a part of my employing company's policy. And then half of that post is in French.
I know the tweet he's referring to.
I managed to save the said tweet (from May 7, 2014) since it's long gone.

"赤緑≒RS→金銀≒DPPt→BW→BW2≒XY"
RBGY [FRLG] and RSE [ORAS] happens at the same time.

- 3 years later -

GSC [HGSS] and DPPt happens at the same time.

- Caitlin's age difference -

BW happens.

- 2 years later -

B2W2 and XY happens at the same time.

Toshinobu Matsumiya has been one of the Scenario writers for the main series Pokemon games.
That post is technically an official confirmation of the timeline (at that time). But that's all there is to it. Just the timeline.
 

Chibi_Muffin

Smart Cookie
Blue's Raticate wasn't even hinted: all we got was "Raticate was in Blue's team until later, and we don't get an explanation why", so we tried to fill the blanks. The multiverse theory has ground: first, if you bring the shiny Beldum, Steven mentions in another world, he fought a trainer with a black charizard...aka the anime Mega Evolution special. And they mention sending things into another dimension, meaning yes there's parallel worlds. We have yet to see definitively if it applies to other versions of the game, but if they know a bunch of parallel universes there's no reason why it should.
I admit, that was a dumb comparison of mine. I meant it in the sense that in both cases, fans took little details and blew them up to be much bigger things than they were. However, I see now that trying to compare something that is canon but a relatively minor detail to a fan theory is a bad idea. :p
 

mia197

Member
Woah, woah, woah; slow down there. There was no such "officially announced timeline." What you are thinking of was an informal tweet, half of which was in Japanese and the other half in English, that has since been deleted. To call that an "official announcement" would be like saying that my off-hours Facebook post about how to seek assistance in fixing a printer is a part of my employing company's policy. And then half of that post is in French.
Twitter, Facebook, Blogs and Sites are sources of information. Its media, advertising medium and form of dialogue with the fans. There is no more today, a platform importance scale. Just because something is published in a magazine, isnt less important than something published on a website or vice versa. And what we have to take into account is that Toshinobu Matsumiya is one of the representatives of the franchise, and what he publishes related to Pokemon has importance.

It's a different context if I or you had published the same subject in our facebooks, no one would take into account, and in the end of the day it would be taken as a rumor, because we did not took part in the game development process.

So, being Toshinobu Matsumiya one of the representatives the Pokemon, and he did a tweet explaining the timeline, is official. Unless they deny it, what has not been done so far. Also, I hate this timeline, for reasons thats no need to explain here, but that's it. In any case, it would be interesting in some interview someone confirm such information, taking into account that the tweet was deleted.

But the reason I stated the timeline is that some people posted that every game is a different universe like Final Fantasy, or ORAS and XY are a universe, and the previous games are another universe, and this is not true. The timeline not necessarily negate the alternate universe. ORAS, and only ORAS, may be a alternate universe in another dimension, but not X/Y we play, are in the same universe as Kanto, Sinnoh, Unova, and Hoenn Ruby / Sapphire. But considering that ORAS are remakes, it is likely that the events of the game are the same as the old, but more detailed. This, obviously, following timeline logic.

I know the tweet he's referring to.
I managed to save the said tweet (from May 7, 2014) since it's long gone.

RBGY [FRLG] and RSE [ORAS] happens at the same time.

- 3 years later -

GSC [HGSS] and DPPt happens at the same time.

- Caitlin's age difference -

BW happens.

- 2 years later -

B2W2 and XY happens at the same time.

Toshinobu Matsumiya has been one of the Scenario writers for the main series Pokemon games.
That post is technically an official confirmation of the timeline (at that time). But that's all there is to it. Just the timeline.
Yeah, it is. Thanks for saving me to search for information in my messy files, I probably would not find. But if "he" is me, I am "she" :)
 
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RedJirachi

Veteran member
Based on hints, and the anime reference when you have the gift Metagross, I think I can figure out the timelines Zinnia suggested:

Shared events​
* The birth of Arceus, and the creation of both the creation and lake trio
* Giratina's banishment
* The creation of Earth, the lake trio...
* Basically, anything over 3000 years ago

Mega Timelines​
* The Gen VI timelines. It diverged from other generations thanks to the Kalos War 3000 years ago occuring. After about 3 millennia, first there is the Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire games, and several years later(the same time period as the Non-Mega Timeline's BW2) X and Y occur. Theoretically, Pokemon Origins could take place in this timeline. There are at least four timelines in this scenario(OR-X, OR-Y, AS-X and AS-Y)
* The current anime timeline. It diverged any time 11 years before Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire

Non-Mega Timelines​
* The Gen I to II timelines. It diverges all 3000 years ago where the war never happened. It includes Red, Blue, Green, Yellow, Gold, Silver and Crystal. As Red has a Pikachu as his main Pokemon in Gold, Silver and Crystal, they cannot have been diverged from Red, Blue and Green. So we have Red-?, Blue-?, Green-? Yellow-Gold, Yellow-Silver and Yellow-Crystal. So we have 6 timelines. 3 years seperate the two
* The Gen III to V timelines. The timelines are FRLG/RSE-3 years-DPPt/HGSS-many years-BW-2 years-BW2. B2 and W2 are direct sequels to B and W respectively, and happen in the same era as the alternate X and Y. Much like their premakes, HGSS must occur on an alternate Yellow as they have a Red with Pikachu. Similarly, BW2 must be distant sequels to Yellow in order to explain Red's team. So these are the following timelines. However BW and DPPt lack proof that there is or isn't a Red with a Pikachu, so they can exist in any of these timeline. This gets us FRLG/RSE-3 years-DPpt-Many Years-BW and Y?/RSE-3 years-DPpt/HGSS-Many years-BW-BW2. So about 72 timelines

Not counting unmentioned continuities and canons, I believe there are 83 timelines
 
Personally, I feel that the original games' timelines are overwritten by the remakes, since the remakes alter and expand upon the originals' stories, features, and content, to the extent that they become almost totally different games from the originals. I also like using my head-canon to help me count the temporal progression, altho I generally stick to release dates and my age at those times for that, so it doesn't help a whole lot.
 
This is what happens when you put alternate timelines/universe into the games. It complicates things and makes it hard to tell which is which, which is why I not going to take Zinnia seriously. Don't know why Game Freak has to complicate the games like this.
 

BCVM22

Well-Known Member
This is what happens when you put alternate timelines/universe into the games. It complicates things and makes it hard to tell which is which, which is why I not going to take Zinnia seriously. Don't know why Game Freak has to complicate the games like this.
No, no, no. That's ridiculous. That someone has chosen to take that line of dialogue and farcically (and inaccurately) conclude that there are 83 - EIGHTY-THREE - timelines in the core titles alone has nothing to do with anything you just said. Blaming Game Freak for that makes no sense and it's moderately ridiculous that you would choose to blame the latter for the former.

One can only assume that in the name of maintaining such a policy universally, you'll next be blaming Game Freak for introducing countless themes of unknown eldritch horror into the games, citing years' worth of overwrought creepypasta garbage from the hyperactive imaginations of certain fans as the culprit. It would be the exact same thing.
 
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