Diamond and Pearl VS Black and White/Best Wishes

[KingMinun]

Brock being a "familiar face" lost its novelty in AG. I believe the original reason Brock was kept for AG is the writers DID originally want one familiar character there. Can you imagine if both Misty and Brock left at the same time?

However by the time DP started we had already watched Brock decline into the background after all 4 years of AG, so sitting through ANOTHER 4 years of him in DP was really pushing it.

His interactions with Dawn weren't thought out well and the writers only gave him 3 Pokemon and kept his team stagnant from 2007-2010. The DP trio would have been more interesting if say Barry were a travel partner instead.

Guess I didn't get bored of Brock being there because I never sat through AG as like BW, I had to force myself to watch some episodes.

 

[2rsa]

Diamond and pearl was so boring and unoriginal.best wishes is getting interesting.:3

 

[CyberCubed]

Guess I didn't get bored of Brock being there because I never sat through AG as like BW, I had to force myself to watch some episodes.

Well if you watched the show out of order, that's not the same way most people watched it. Brock still had a personality in AG, which is why he was still enjoyable even if he still didn't do much in most episodes. After how dull most of Johto was, it was entirely refreshing to see the show go back to its roots while also adding new stuff.

The DP trio was very repetitive, Brock was just there for no reason and Dawn's personality remained stagnant throughout the arc. And Piplup if you count it was disliked by many. I honestly believe it was the least liked group of the entire series.

There is no doubt in my mind the entire BW trio was designed in a way to reduce this repetition, as this is why Brock is likely finally gone and they didn't do Contests (or Musicals) with a third girl.

 

[KingMinun]

Well if you watched the show out of order, that's not the same way most people watched it. Brock still had a personality in AG, which is why he was still enjoyable even if he still didn't do much in most episodes. After how dull most of Johto was, it was entirely refreshing to see the show go back to its roots while also adding new stuff.

The DP trio was very repetitive, Brock was just there for no reason and Dawn's personality remained stagnant throughout the arc. And Piplup if you count it was disliked by many.

There is no doubt in my mind the entire BW trio was designed in a way to reduce this repetition, as this is why Brock is likely finally gone and they didn't do Contests (or Musicals) with a third girl.

Meh, I watched important episodes of AG, like the gyms and League, and the Battle Frontier.

So wait? The BW trio are designed to reduce repetition? Weird, cause from what I've seen, they are both gym leaders....sound familiar? One of them is a girl with a fiery attitude...sound familiar? the other is a great cook?...again sound familiar? At least with the DP trio, Brock was still Brock and the only similarity that Dawn and May had was their goal, to be top coordinator.

 

[CyberCubed]

Meh, I watched important episodes of AG, like the gyms and League, and the Battle Frontier.

Watching one-off episodes here and there is not the same as watching it as a whole. I really don't understand how you can sit through something like the Johto saga, when the show really was bad in most cases, over sagas that are actually good and entertaining like AG and BW. Keep in mind I also liked most of DP, so I am not saying DP is bad either.

Is this why you really don't understand why people have praise for sagas you don't watch? I am sure you pointed out the AG and BW praise on this forum before. Just curious.

So wait? The BW trio are designed to reduce repetition? Weird, cause from what I've seen, they are both gym leaders....sound familiar? One of them is a girl with a fiery attitude...sound familiar? the other is a great cook?...again sound familiar? At least with the DP trio, Brock was still Brock and the only similarity that Dawn and May had was their goal, to be top coordinator.

Their Gym leader status is hardly ever brought up, people only think of it because of the games.

Iris doesn't have a fiery attittude, she doesn't have a temper at all really nor does she argue with Ash. She calls him a kid and that's the extent of it. She's really not like Misty personality wise at all. She doesn't obsess over dragons the way Misty did over water pokemon.

And as for Cilan, while I'll give you the cooking thing, his personality is about as opposite as Brock's as you can possibly get. And his role in most episodes is entirely more active.

The only thing bad about the BW trio is Ash's personality was regressed, but it has nothing to do with the other two.

 

[KingMinun]

Watching one-off episodes here and there is not the same as watching it as a whole. I really don't understand how you can sit through something like the Johto saga, when the show really was bad in most cases, over sagas that are actually good and entertaining like AG and BW. Keep in mind I also liked most of DP, so I am not saying DP is bad either.

Is this why you really don't understand why people have praise for sagas you don't watch? I am sure you pointed out the AG and BW praise on this forum before. Just curious.



Their Gym leader status is hardly ever brought up, people only think of it because of the games.

Iris doesn't have a fiery attittude, she doesn't have a temper at all really nor does she argue with Ash. She calls him a kid and that's the extent of it. She's really not like Misty personality wise at all. She doesn't obsess over dragons the way Misty did over water pokemon.

And as for Cilan, while I'll give you the cooking thing, his personality is about as opposite as Brock's as you can possibly get. And his role in most episodes is entirely more active.

The only thing bad about the BW trio is Ash's personality was regressed, but it has nothing to do with the other two.

I completely understand why people have praise for sagas I don't like, its a matter of opinion. You may find Johto boring, but I enjoyed it. You love AG, where as I can only watch certain episodes. It doesn't mean the saga in itself is bad. I can see the love for AG and BW, so it is good to some people. But to me, its not that's all. I'm rambling a bit here, but yeah. I accept that people like certain sagas and don't like others.

 

[(P.O.K.E.M.O.N)]

dp felt more violent while bw feels more cartoony and childy, i like that better


anyways bw > dp

 

[CyberCubed]

I completely understand why people have praise for sagas I don't like, its a matter of opinion. You may find Johto boring, but I enjoyed it. You love AG, where as I can only watch certain episodes. It doesn't mean the saga in itself is bad. I can see the love for AG and BW, so it is good to some people. But to me, its not that's all. I'm rambling a bit here, but yeah. I accept that people like certain sagas and don't like others.

Yet you're a fan of the anime as a whole, and signal out certain sagas. When in reality, the entire show is written almost the same exact way, and the only thing that makes sagas better/worse is some aspects are handled differently. After 15 years, the anime hasn't really changed all that much.

It seems to me you keep basing the show around certain female characters, as you said once before when Misty left that's when you lost interest originally, and now with Dawn leaving, its the same thing. The series is about Ash and the Pokemon themselves, not whatever female is traveling with him.

Considering the anime will probably go on for generations after BW, I am quite curious if you'd come back to the show once again, which would prove my point of you stop watching after every odd-numbered female protagonist leaves...which kinda makes little to no sense.

 

[Geekachu]

I'll have to go with Diamond and Pearl. Whilst I love BW, I think that DP had much better battles and, of course, character development. Many people complain about DP because it was so full of filler episodes, however I just loved how epic it was for the saga to last that long. The only disappointment was Tobias in the League, but apart from that, DP remains to be my strong favourite.

Oh, and Cilan and Iris are just too annoying.

 

[KingMinun]

Yet you're a fan of the anime as a whole, and signal out certain sagas. When in reality, the entire show is written almost the same exact way, and the only thing that makes sagas better/worse is some aspects are handled differently. After 15 years, the anime hasn't really changed all that much.

It seems to me you keep basing the show around certain female characters, as you said once before when Misty left that's when you lost interest originally, and now with Dawn leaving, its the same thing. The series is about Ash and the Pokemon themselves, not whatever female is traveling with him.

Considering the anime will probably go on for generations after BW, I am quite curious if you'd come back to the show once again, which would prove my point of you stop watching after every odd-numbered female protagonist leaves...which kinda makes little to no sense.

I know its about Ash, which is why the certain episodes of BW and AG are episodes in which involve his battles against Rivals/Gyms/Leagues etc and sometime his captures. Besides, it may be all about him, but like pretty much everything I watch, I much prefer watching the other main characters rather than the main character for example, another series which I love is Sonic the Hedgehog, but I much prefer the character of Tails, or Dr.Who, much prefer Martha Jones to the Doctor himself, in Mario, I prefer Luigi! I prefer the other characters rather than the main one them self. I lost interest in Pokemon when Misty left mainly because most people stopped watching Pokemon and I decided to stop since the original trio were being split up. However shortly after, I got back into the series, but couldn't attach to May or Max. And I hated the contests. Like I've said before, when I started watching DP, I tried not to like Dawn because she was a coordinator, but after watching her contests, I found them more appealing and her story had more development when she started losing, it reminded me of myself so I was able to attach to her. As for BW, its not that Dawn's left, its that I can't attach to Iris, she grates me. Her voice and her "you're such a kid" gets to me. The battles are not on the level as they were in DP imo so its not enjoyable. I tried to give the series a chance, but it wasn't working. However, Cilan has the potential to be a great companion but that's not enough to bring me back to the anime on a regular weekly basis.

Since there is no side quest anymore, I probably will come back during the filler saga if they bring back old pokemon again. Depends on what is happening in it. But like I said, BW isn't all bad, the TR Vs TP looks very interesting and I hope to watch it.

 

[CyberCubed]

I know its about Ash, which is why the certain episodes of BW and AG are episodes in which involve his battles against Rivals/Gyms/Leagues etc and sometime his captures. Besides, it may be all about him, but like pretty much everything I watch, I much prefer watching the other main characters rather than the main character for example,

That's what the group dynamics are for.

Which is exactly the reason a lot of people felt the DP trio was stale. While people might have liked Dawn herself, people also watch for a group dynamic. Since Dawn/Brock didn't really have any type of chemistry, it was little to go on.

I'll ask this, don't you think this is why Brock finally left after staying all this time? I think after the DP series, the writers realized they needed to go back to the original formula and back to characters who have a group dynamic. Brock probably survived through AG and into DP probably because he still fit into the Hoenn group, and kept his character entertaining.

When DP started it was clearly only about Ash and Dawn, and Brock felt detached from everything. Two people alone don't make a group.

I lost interest in Pokemon when Misty left mainly because most people stopped watching Pokemon and I decided to stop since the original trio were being split up. However shortly after, I got back into the series, but couldn't attach to May or Max. And I hated the contests. Like I've said before, when I started watching DP, I tried not to like Dawn because she was a coordinator, but after watching her contests, I found them more appealing and her story had more development when she started losing, it reminded me of myself so I was able to attach to her. As for BW, its not that Dawn's left, its that I can't attach to Iris, she grates me. Her voice and her "you're such a kid" gets to me. The battles are not on the level as they were in DP imo so its not enjoyable. I tried to give the series a chance, but it wasn't working. However, Cilan has the potential to be a great companion but that's not enough to bring me back to the anime on a regular weekly basis.

Fair enough I suppose. I suppose it had nothing to do with Misty or Dawn being "odd numbered" protagonists then, and you stop watching because the girls who came after them weren't the same?

Makes me wonder if Dawn and May were reversed, and Dawn was introduced in AG instead, but they had the same personalities/storylines they had now, what you would think. You probably wouldn't have watched enough of AG to get attached to Dawn, even if she went through the same losing streak we watched her in DP as you were only into the original trio back then.

 

[KingMinun]

That's what the group dynamics are for.

Which is exactly the reason a lot of people felt the DP trio was stale. While people might have liked Dawn herself, people also watch for a group dynamic. Since Dawn/Brock didn't really have any type of chemistry, it was little to go on.

I'll ask this, don't you think this is why Brock finally left after staying all this time? I think after the DP series, the writers realized they needed to go back to the original formula and back to characters who have a group dynamic. Brock probably survived through AG and into DP probably because he still fit into the Hoenn group, and kept his character entertaining.

When DP started it was clearly only about Ash and Dawn, and Brock felt detached from everything. Two people alone don't make a group.



Fair enough I suppose. I suppose it had nothing to do with Misty or Dawn being "odd numbered" protagonists then, and you stop watching because the girls who came after them weren't the same?

Makes me wonder if Dawn and May were reversed, and Dawn was introduced in AG instead, but they had the same personalities/storylines they had now, what you would think. You probably wouldn't have watched enough of AG to get attached to Dawn, even if she went through the same losing streak we watched her in DP as you were only into the original trio back then.

I suppose that could be the reason why Brock left.

If Dawn was introduced in AG, I dunno, what I loved about Dawn was how relatable I found her, during the time of her depression, I was also depressed, I was being bullied and hated my life and my self, everything I did, it was wrong, and I messed up in exams, etc. At the time, Dawn went through the same thing, and we both pulled through because of friends, my friends helped me during the bullying and Ash, Zoey and May all helped to get Dawn back on track. So if Dawn was introduced in AG, I probably wouldn't have paid attention to her that much as it was airing but maybe have gone back and enjoyed her after going through something similar to her story. I don't know though.
I don't want the characters to be the same, I don't mind them sharing similar quests, this is pokemon, where each player shares the same quest, so its not really a bad thing for the characters to be coordinators or trainers. If you get what I mean. Its more about the personality and the differences in their journeys. Dawn struggled, where as May didn't. Dawn felt like she was based of a proper girl for once, instead of the tomboy attitude that Misty had.

 

[Blazicken]

If I had to pick in general, i'd say best wishes takes the win.
The only things I really liked about diamond and pearl were:
-the paul/ash-chimchar rivalry
-infernape & gible
BW is refreshing as it has new animation, no more contests, less TR-repetitiveness & pokemon-rotation. Also the pokemon seem to have more character than in DP.
Though there have rather many eps that were crap to me lately, the latest 2 episodes were pretty good & the future episodes are starting to look promissing again aswell.

 

[CyberCubed]

I suppose that could be the reason why Brock left.

If Dawn was introduced in AG, I dunno, what I loved about Dawn was how relatable I found her, during the time of her depression, I was also depressed, I was being bullied and hated my life and my self, everything I did, it was wrong, and I messed up in exams, etc. At the time, Dawn went through the same thing, and we both pulled through because of friends, my friends helped me during the bullying and Ash, Zoey and May all helped to get Dawn back on track. So if Dawn was introduced in AG, I probably wouldn't have paid attention to her that much as it was airing but maybe have gone back and enjoyed her after going through something similar to her story. I don't know though.
I don't want the characters to be the same, I don't mind them sharing similar quests, this is pokemon, where each player shares the same quest, so its not really a bad thing for the characters to be coordinators or trainers. If you get what I mean. Its more about the personality and the differences in their journeys. Dawn struggled, where as May didn't. Dawn felt like she was based of a proper girl for once, instead of the tomboy attitude that Misty had.

OK, it's good to find a character you can relate to. Although every character on the show did go through depression at some point besides Tracey I suppose.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Brock being a "familiar face" lost its novelty in AG. I believe the original reason Brock was kept for AG is the writers DID originally want one familiar character there.

The DP trio would have been more interesting if say Barry were a travel partner instead.

I disagree.Brock still retained that novelty of familiar character in AG being known for being obsessed over girls,being irrational over finer things in life and wccentric while at same time being capable,collected and mature when it comes to pokemon and bringing order when conflict arises between group giving us often character which had that level of mystery and stability balancing out impulsiveness and tension between cast.

I actually liked his character quit a lot in Hoenn and Battle Frontier feeling more intriguing than he really was in Johto.I watched Johto several times and i can safely say how he suffered the most there as character(definitely more than TR or Misty did),and it was refreshing to see writers fixing mistakes with him in AG becoming valuable and enjoyable part of cast again.

Talking about Barry,i dont think things would have been much different even if he replaced Brock in Sinnoh.DP was designed to promote Ash and Dawn friendship and their focus on career and whoever was third party there would probably suffered from same problem Brock did ending up neglected.Problem wasnt in Brock in DP.,but in writers incapability to balance out screen time between three characters at same time in cast adequately.

I really don't understand how you can sit through something like the Johto saga, when the show really was bad in most cases, over sagas that are actually good and entertaining like AG and BW. Keep in mind I also liked most of DP, so I am not saying DP is bad either.

Maybe in your opinion,but opinion fro one individual cant speak in name of everyone else.

I can understand why you didnt liked Johto,it wasnt my cup of tea either,but at same time i dont consider it as worst region having good chemistry between Ash,Misty and Brock,many enjoyable episodes,mini arcs etc with some things being improved compared to Kanto.

Some people liked this series more than they did within AG,DP or BW.People have their reasons for not liking certain regions,while enjoying in others.
Which is fine because world would be very boring place if everyone had same opinion.

Iris doesn't have a fiery attittude, she doesn't have a temper at all really nor does she argue with Ash. She calls him a kid and that's the extent of it. She's really not like Misty personality wise at all. She doesn't obsess over dragons the way Misty did over water pokemon.

While i agree you cant generalize characters on one to two traits,because there is much more to it.I suppose reason why some people view Iris similar to Misty is because of their cynical and snarky side liking to tease.

That and their fear over specific type of pokemon,but agreed hardly enough to be considered as clone.

Which is exactly the reason a lot of people felt the DP trio was stale. While people might have liked Dawn herself, people also watch for a group dynamic. Since Dawn/Brock didn't really have any type of chemistry, it was little to go on.

Majority isnt always right.Just because some thought DP group was stale doesnt mean it was stale to everyone.People view things from various points of perspective having different preferences.

There is no right or wrong answer here.

I'll ask this, don't you think this is why Brock finally left after staying all this time? I think after the DP series, the writers realized they needed to go back to the original formula and back to characters who have a group dynamic. Brock probably survived through AG and into DP probably because he still fit into the Hoenn group, and kept his character entertaining.

I think it has more to do with BW games than anything else.BW games were revamped alot more than it was case with other games in past trying to give "vibe of fresh start"with several changing happening from contests being gone,Unova being portrayed as far and isolated region as well not having anymore second side quest.
Writers probably wanted to mirror those changes with anime explaining why formula went back to one main star and two sidekicks as well why another new character joined main cast at expense of Brock leaving.

If BW games didnt had so many changes Brock would probably stay in main cast past Sinnoh.

About intention being to have anime go back to original formula with Unova,logic dictates how writers would probably reunited original trio instead.It would have made far more sense,better displaying intention of "anime going back to its roots" pleasing many fans.

BW currently are viewed nothing alike,like Kanto was with BW trio while having good chemistry operating on completely different level serving different purpose.

When DP started it was clearly only about Ash and Dawn, and Brock felt detached from everything. Two people alone don't make a group.

Which leads me to believe how main reason behind Brock neglect in DP was because attention of anime was mainly directed toward focus on development of two co-stars(Ash and Dawn)and their friendship forcing Brock out of group dynamic,not having much things in common with Dawn to connect on closer level.

However from what i noticed DP focused more on his breeder career than Kanto,Johto or AG ever did giving to character some development.However while DP did more about Brock career of breeder getting his first egg,participating in various contests(like triathlon,pokemon transformation contest,summer school arc,tag battle tournament etc)he was at times so much sidelined that you could get impression how he didnt developed at all.Although he did to some minor degree coming to realization over course of Sinnoh how doctor is true calling he wants to pursue with people often overlooking such details.

Speaking of Dawn she wasnt my favorite female,but i have to say she was one of reasons why DP was entertaining to watch(just like may 0or Misty contributed greatly on appeal of respective sagas they were part of).What i liked about her was that she had good interactions with Ash,Zoey,Ursula or Kenny being good character,interesting story and development she went through gaining tremendous growth as coordinator with culmination of hard work being achieved position of runner up in Sinnoh GF.And all that burden and pressure she had from mother,her rivals and friends she carried on back having to prove her worth as coordinator and fulfill other expectations made me root for journey and progress she made.

 

[HatersGonnaHate]

I don't see what's wrong with Johto. Yes it had a lot of fillers, but they weren't bad fillers. Half of them were pretty entertaining.

Aside from the lack of evolutions, I don't see the problem. Misty was more active in Johto, we got some great battles, and the show still had the original feel to it.

My main problem with AG was not the episodes, but the pokemon themselves. The Hoenn region had the least interesting pokemon imo. They were dull looking compared to the Johto pokemon.

 

[Vernikova]

I don't see what's wrong with Johto. Yes it had a lot of fillers, but they weren't bad fillers. Half of them were pretty entertaining.

Aside from the lack of evolutions, I don't see the problem. Misty was more active in Johto, we got some great battles, and the show still had the original feel to it.

The problem with Johto is that all of the episodes that really felt important all seemed to be really far apart in terms of episodes. It really takes it toll when only one or two new episodes aired every week (actually I don't even remember how it aired all the way back then) and the gym battles and stuff are all so far apart.

Back in 1999, most people didn't have knowledge of a Serebii-like site so it probably annoyed them that Ash was doing much of the same thing all of the time.

 

[CyberCubed]

Aside from the lack of evolutions, I don't see the problem. Misty was more active in Johto, we got some great battles, and the show still had the original feel to it.

Not really, outside of maybe a few episodes, Johto felt absolutely nothing like Kanto. The whole old slapstick humor and art style was gone by that point, the Japanese culture was disappearing, and Ash's Kanto starters were dropped early on. Plus Misty's temper was dropped dulling her character.

My main problem with AG was not the episodes, but the pokemon themselves. The Hoenn region had the least interesting pokemon imo. They were dull looking compared to the Johto pokemon.

Well that is more of a GameFreak complaint than anything the anime writers did. I always thought the Hoenn pokemon themselves had great designs, some of my favorites are from this era.

 

[MidnightMelody]

Meh, I watched important episodes of AG, like the gyms and League, and the Battle Frontier.

So wait? The BW trio are designed to reduce repetition? Weird, cause from what I've seen, they are both gym leaders....sound familiar? One of them is a girl with a fiery attitude...sound familiar? the other is a great cook?...again sound familiar? At least with the DP trio, Brock was still Brock and the only similarity that Dawn and May had was their goal, to be top coordinator.

Well actually only one is a gym leader. Iris is just a trainer in the anime and a gym leader in the game so it matters how you look at it. Then again Misty was the official gym leader in Kanto games while in the anime her sisters were and then her so idk how to state it as an official thing anime wise. Maybe when Ash gets to the 8th gym we will know for certain.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Not really, outside of maybe a few episodes, Johto felt absolutely nothing like Kanto. The whole old slapstick humor and art style was gone by that point, the Japanese culture was disappearing, and Ash's Kanto starters were dropped early on. Plus Misty's temper was dropped dulling her character.

NOt at all, Misty still had temper in Johto which can be noticed in eruptions of anger in various episodes like "Totodile Duel""Hook,line and Stinker","Fortune Hunters",Some Like It Hot"etc,etc.
Only difference was that her temper didn't came out on surface so much like it was case in Kanto days with Misty starting to mature with other character traits which were often overshadowed coming on surface more like sarcasm,love for water types,caring side,her wit and humor etc.

Temper was hardly only thing because of which character was entertaining either.Last time i checked Misty was still fun,dynamic chartacter in Johto being cynical,passionate,humorous and girly having various quirks to her which allowed for compelling character.She had great interactions with several characters like Sakura,Egan,Dorian etc establihing good friendships and bringing tension and comedy to to original trio chemistry whenever receiving focus.

Misty received ore screen time in Johto compared to Kanto and OI as well,which is for some reson denied,and she went through some significant growth becoming more levelheaded,getting over complex of feeling less worthy compared to sisters and becoming stronger trainer.Not to mention Johto di more about her goal of water master than ny previous aga did,with peple seeming to forget everything recalling only parts where she was on sidelines.

To HatersGonnaHate:Johto did several improvements and highlights too,it just happens some people tend to focus only on negative parts.It was ground breaker in introducing mini arcs of several episodes in a row which followed specific storyline like Red Gyarados,Lugia,Larvitar or Whirl Islands arc with other series afterwards starting to incorporate same pattern too.
-Aside from gym matches battling in general got improved being more strategic and detailed along with animation becoming better too.
-it added more characterization to Ash pokemon not treating them like "soulless battling machines".Only problem was that Johto pokemon suffered from lack of focus clashing with Ash Kanto tam which overshadowed them at times taking up unnecessary all that screen time.
-it tried to implement several mini tournaments(like Seaking contest,grass tournament,Pokemon sumo or bug catching contest)with purpose of putting something else on table beside only fillers which included typical COTD having problems.
-Johto also introduced several new recurring characters like Sakura and Casey along with bringing up older ones from past(like Ritchie,Aya,Tood,Duplica etc)acting like sequel from first series.
-lastly chemistry between Ash,Misty and Brock was still fun feeling like genuine group of long time known friends sharing close bend and bringing entertainment to episodes which would have been otherwise complete garbage."Gotta Catch Ya Later" was culmination of that showing how attached they were when had to depart.TR was saving grace for severa unfamous fllers too,which would otherwise be terrible.

It had many fillers,but many of them were actually interesting with Johto having its good points and charms,and while it did many things wrong its not being given deserved credit.