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Did Serena and Clemont even like each other?

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Mr.Munchlax

Great Ball Rank Trainer
I just personally really relate to the feeling of being aimless and in search of a goal l and the idea of finding something to dedicate yourself to and the dynamics with failure that come along with that where I think Serena's character really excelled in its exploration of that concept
Yeah, I have to admit that’s one thing I loved about Serena’s character. I honestly think the best episodes focused on her were her first showcase and “Battling with Elegance, & a Big Smile” since they both showed those qualities perfectly
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
Serena was super special. I am glad she isnt appearing, cuz I dont want her to go into Pegasus toon world and look ugly like happened with Misty.

She didnt have many interactions with Citron, but they were friends and he even trusted her with Bonnie
 

Dragonsoldier77

Well-Known Member
No, we talk about DP009-DP012, which is her 5th-8th dedicated episode. At that point in XY, Serena only had 1 dedicated episode, vs Dawn's 8 episodes.
Ah my mistake. Yes bunneary falling in love with pikachu and dawn getting a poketch were such great development for her.
 

Mr.Munchlax

Great Ball Rank Trainer
Yes because it was her first Pokémon capture
Out of all the companions’ first catch episodes, Dawn catching Buneary was one of my favorites (the other being Goh catching Scorbunny) since it showed her struggling to catch Buneary, had a bit of a rivalry with Ash in trying to get it, & ultimately bonding with Buneary and gaining the confidence she needed before catching it in a proper battle.
 
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Morax

Well-Known Member
>having a crush on someone and using that as a driving force for development makes you a hollow character.
And this is why i don't take part in these conversations anymore. Because huRR duRR ShiPpiNG BaD:rolleyes:
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
The best Serena's focused episode is easily XY053. Don't ask me


The fact that Aria debuted in the Pokevision episode but nobody mentioned that she was the Kalos Queen or something about Showcases only makes that worse.


No, we talk about DP009-DP012, which is her 5th-8th dedicated episode. At that point in XY, Serena only had 1 dedicated episode, vs Dawn's 8 episodes.
If I remember right, Aria became Kalos Queen between that episode and the episode where Showcases were introduced. Shauna mentions as much.
 

Sham

Twitter= the origin of racism -mods 2021
I mean they have a friend in common so sure. I wouldn’t say they weren’t friends. Do I believe they would of ever interacted if Ash wasn’t there? Probably not. While I agree with people that you don’t need to explicitly say two people are friends for them be considered friends; I definitely would of liked to see more of a dynamic between them. I’m currently rewatching XY and I’m like on the summer camp arc and I genuinely say I can remember very few moments where they interacted besides Serena reacting to his inventions not working.
 

Kazuniya

Pikachub
>having a crush on someone and using that as a driving force for development
Are you implying that Serena's crush on Ash was somehow a driving force for her development?
Because that is completely and utterly wrong.

Literally, the only meaningful thing Serena's crush did was give her an excuse to leave home and then join Ash. That's about it.

Quite literally, Serena just followed Ash around for about 60 episodes until the writers realized that the romance thing does not quite work because Serena was getting nothing out of it, and because Ash is fundamentally a character who does not care for romance or any romantic things. The entire "subplot" (and I hesitate to even call it that) ultimately led to zero substantial growth on Serena's side, and she did not actually start to grow as a person until she realized that everyone but her had some kind of goal or aspiration during the summer camp arc. All of her growth came from her Performer goals and aspirations, none of it came from her silly crush on Ash. So this idea that Serena's feelings somehow caused her to grow as a character is a legitimate delusion. The whole concept is hollow and it remained hollow until the very end, and it surely did zero favors to Serena's character.

Well, I will give you one thing. Her crush did make her very popular among Ash stans who love to see their boy being idolized by a cute girl. It's what a chad like him deserves. ;)
 

Morax

Well-Known Member
Are you implying that Serena's crush on Ash was somehow a driving force for her development?
Because that is completely and utterly wrong.

Literally, the only meaningful thing Serena's crush did was give her an excuse to leave home and then join Ash. That's about it.

Quite literally, Serena just followed Ash around for about 60 episodes until the writers realized that the romance thing does not quite work because Serena was getting nothing out of it, and because Ash is fundamentally a character who does not care for romance or any romantic things. The entire "subplot" (and I hesitate to even call it that) ultimately led to zero substantial growth on Serena's side, and she did not actually start to grow as a person until she realized that everyone but her had some kind of goal or aspiration during the summer camp arc. All of her growth came from her Performer goals and aspirations, none of it came from her silly crush on Ash. So this idea that Serena's feelings somehow caused her to grow as a character is a legitimate delusion. The whole concept is hollow and it remained hollow until the very end, and it surely did zero favors to Serena's character.

Well, I will give you one thing. Her crush did make her very popular among Ash stans who love to see their boy being idolized by a cute girl. It's what a chad like him deserves. ;)
Moshi moshi beito desu, but i'll bite anyway.

Her crush led her to join ash. Seeing how proactive ash was towards his goal made serena want a goal as well which made her stumble upon tripokalon. Wanting to impress ash is quite literally what started it all. She later realized that she herself enjoyed it and decided to pursue what she wanted instead of following him around like a fangirl.

Started out as a NEET who easily gave up on things ---> her crush made her strive to be better ---> found her calling ---> decided to not give up on her crush AND her dream.
The same girl who couldn't hold hands with him now had the courage to kiss him, bringing her development full circle.
 
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Moshi moshi beito desu, but i'll bite anyway.

Her crush led her to join ash. Seeing how proactive ash was towards his goal made serena want a goal as well which made her stumble upon tripokalon. Wanting to impress ash is quite literally what started it all. She later realized that she herself enjoyed it and decided to pursue what she wanted instead of following him around like a fangirl.

Started out as a NEET who easily gave up on things ---> her crush made her strive to be better ---> found her calling ---> decided to not give up on her crush AND her dream.
The same girl who couldn't hold hands with him now had the courage to kiss him, bringing her development full circle.
Why would you even dignify a post like that with a response lmao?
 
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Because i love serena. I won't let trolls disrespect one of my favourite characters.
You're responding to what is clearly bait. It reminds me of Twitter posts done to provoke a maximum amount of outrage. Don't you think it just seems a bit masochistic trying to reason with that?

When I said that the poster's perception of Serena basically boils down to them viewing Serena as a lovesick puppy tripping over her heels and twiddling her thumbs while longingly staring at Ash from afar, I really wasn't that far off at all.

Side note, it's really just hilarious to me that these are often the same people who often argue so vociferously, correctly I mind you, that Iris has always been unfairly reduced down to the " You're such a kid " line yet in a fabulous example of tunnel vision are incapable of realizing that they do the same to Serena.
 
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Morax

Well-Known Member
You're responding to what is clearly bait
responding to trolls makes them desperate and **** out even more nonsense. It's entertaining, like watching a drunkard trying his best to act sober ;)
 
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Kazuniya

Pikachub
Her crush led her to join ash. Seeing how proactive ash was towards his goal made serena want a goal as well which made her stumble upon tripokalon.
This is actually not true? What makes her realizes that she has no purpose is being surrounded by a bunch of trainers who all have goals and aspirations. If Ash was the one who made her realize it, don't you think she would have realized that much earlier on, even before the summer camp arc? Like c'mon.

Again, as I said, all her crush on Ash did was get her on a journey and leave her home. This is pretty much it? I'll give it credit for that.

Everything else happened as a consequence of being surrounded by other people who have dreams and goals in the summer camp and then pursuing her goals for herself, not for Ash. You're making it seem like Ash is the one person who made her realize she needs a purpose in life, when it's blatantly false, and an obvious attempt at trying to link the shipping stuff with her development.

You're responding to what is clearly bait.
"Blah blah I have no counterargument therefore this is a bait"

Try harder.

Started out as a NEET who easily gave up on things ---> her crush made her strive to be better ---> found her calling ---> decided to not give up on her crush AND her dream.
>her crush made her strive to be better

Not true. Already explained why above.

>decided to not give up on her crush AND her dream.

This is great and all, but at no point does Serena's crush on have any meaningful impact on her journey and character development. It all comes from herself and her rivals. Serena's romantic feelings for Ash quite literally had zero impact on her journey as a Performer.

Serena's growth and developments comes from her own failures and struggles and overcoming those. Her feelings for Ash are ultimately insignificant in the grand scheme of things. You could remove her crush on Ash, and her Pokemon Performer journey would remain basically the same. That's how irrelevant Ash is for Serena's character development.
 
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Sham

Twitter= the origin of racism -mods 2021
Moshi moshi beito desu, but i'll bite anyway.

Her crush led her to join ash. Seeing how proactive ash was towards his goal made serena want a goal as well which made her stumble upon tripokalon. Wanting to impress ash is quite literally what started it all. She later realized that she herself enjoyed it and decided to pursue what she wanted instead of following him around like a fangirl.

Started out as a NEET who easily gave up on things ---> her crush made her strive to be better ---> found her calling ---> decided to not give up on her crush AND her dream.
The same girl who couldn't hold hands with him now had the courage to kiss him, bringing her development full circle.
So her entire character is centered around Ash? Isn't that what Serena fans have been arguing against for better half of four years?
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
So her entire character is centered around Ash? Isn't that what Serena fans have been arguing against for better half of four years?
The worst thing is that if you argue something against Serena, you are treated like a troll and your post like a bait, like if you were not allowed to logically have reasons to not like or not think that her character was that great, and honestly she wasn't, and her character being so centered around Ash is one of the biggest reasons, not everything is about him, but in XY, most of things were around him
 
So her entire character is centered around Ash? Isn't that what Serena fans have been arguing against for better half of four years?
I don't necessarily agree with much of Morax's post since I think he's conflating Serena's crush with Ash with her relationship with Ash which is what I think a lot of people do. I would definitely argue that Serena's relationship with Ash, as I did previously in the thread, was definitely one of the driving factors of her character and I don't think that's a bad thing at all. I think the idea that shipping or her " crush " is what drove her character is what is incorrect.

I'll use episode 40, for example, since you've said you're rewatching XY/XYZ and said you were around that specific area of the anime. There, Serena talks with Ash about how she views highly of him since he has such a clear goal and is always working hard towards it. Then, she discusses her insecurities about wondering about what she wants to do and what her dream is. Ash talks about how Serena should slow down and find what she wants to do with her Pokemon and through her journey and how nothing we experience is pointless. That scene has some of the subtext of Serena's crush with it in phrases when Serena said " you're so amazing Ash, " but the scene isn't really about Serena's crush at all. It's more so about Serena struggle within herself in finding her identity.

Later in the episode when Serena talks to Shauna about wanting to see showcases, she brings about Ash's advice to her earlier in the episode about how nothing we experience is pointless into the scene as one of the reasons why she wanted to look into it.

That ending scene with Shuana is why I when I think of Serena and Ash's relationship, I view it more through the prism of inspiration and how Serena viewed Ash as someone relentlessly dedicated and passionate about a goal and how Serena took from that in pursuit of her own dreams. There are other examples of course, with Ash's famous " never give up " motto being something that Serena also takes from to push her through her own failures among other things.
 
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Sham

Twitter= the origin of racism -mods 2021
I don't necessarily agree with much of Morax's post since I think he's conflating Serena's crush with Ash with her relationship with Ash which is what I think a lot of people do. I would definitely argue that Serena's relationship with Ash, as I did previously in the thread, was definitely one of the driving factors with of her character.

I'll use episode 40, for example, since you've said you're rewatching XY/XYZ and said you were around that specific area of the anime. There, Serena talks with Ash about how she views highly of him since he has such a clear goal and is always working hard towards it. Then, she discusses her insecurities about wondering about what she wants to do and what her dream is. Ash talks about how Serena should slow down and find what she wants to do with her Pokemon and through her journey and how nothing we experience is pointless. That scene has some of the subtext of Serena's crush with it in phrases when Serena said " you're so amazing Ash, " but the scene isn't really about Serena's crush at all. It's more so about Serena struggle within herself in finding her identity.

Later in the episode when Serena talks to Shauna about wanting to see showcases, she brings about Ash's advice to her earlier in the episode about how nothing we experience is pointless into the scene as one of the reasons why she wanted to look into it.

That ending scene with Shuana is why I when I think of Serena and Ash's relationship, I view it more through the prism of inspiration and how Serena viewed Ash as someone relentlessly dedicated and passionate about a goal and how Serena took from that in pursuit of her own dreams. There are other examples of course, with Ash's famous " never give up " motto being something that Serena also takes from to push her through her own failures among other things.
I understand what you are saying and taking a clearer glance Amour isn't shoved down our throats as much as I thought earlier but I will say that the writers refuse to let us forget that she does have one him. A good example of this is Miette in her debut episode where Miette realizes that Serena has a crush on Ash and while that isn't the focus of their rivalry it is jarring. Can Serena not have one aspect of her development that isn't intertwined with Ash? Why does Miette have to be her "rival" over Ash as well?

Serena leaves the house because she sees Ash's on TV and decides to return something of his
Serena obtains a Pokemon to chase down Ash
Serena goes on a journey because Ash asked her too
Serena remains undecided of her goal and wants to find one after seeing Ash and Shuana profess their dreams
Miette a rival of Serena spends more time teasing Serena about her crush than actually competing against her in Showcases
Serena is able to make a decision on what she will do after life after having a battle with Ash

There is more but I can't think of at the moment. What I'm saying is that if would of been nice if she had some form of development and or interactions that didn't intertwine with Ash.
 
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