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Did Serena and Clemont even like each other?

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I understand what you are saying and taking a clearer glance Amour isn't shoved down our throats as much as I thought earlier but I will say that the writers refuse to let us forget that she does have one him. A good example of this is Miette in her debut episode where Miette realizes that Serena has a crush on Ash and while that isn't the focus of their rivalry it is jarring.
I think that part of the dynamic with Miette was a fun gag that subtly puked fun of Serena's confidence issues and her proclivities for not taking the initiative. Again, people over focused on what were 5-10 seconds moments of Amour in what was mostly an episode focused on Serena's search for something to do.
Can Serena not have one aspect of her development that isn't intertwined with Ash? Why does Miette have to be her "rival" over Ash as well?
First, as I've said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea that her development is intertwined with Ash.

There are plenty of aspects of her development that were explored that weren't directly intertwined with Ash. Episodes like #47, #50, #53, #60, and #64 among others are developmental episodes where Ash and Serena's relationship isn't the focal point of the episode at all and instead explore Serena's character through several different facts whether it be through her relationship with her Pokemon, her dynamic with Aria, her relationship with her mother, her failures with showcases, etc alongside her relationship with Ash.
Serena leaves the house because she sees Ash's on TV and decides to return something of his
That's not really why she left. Seeing Ash was her excuse to leave the house and start her journey because she didn't want to do Ryhorn Racing as she tells her mother that twice in the series.
Serena obtains a Pokemon to chase down Ash
I don't think that's remotely a fair interpretation of why Serena had Fennekin.
Serena goes on a journey because Ash asked her too
I don't think it's a bad thing that Serena went on a journey on self-discovery that led her to finding what she wanted to do in life just because Ash invited her too.
Serena remains undecided of her goal and wants to find one after seeing Ash and Shuana profess their dreams
Even there, it's also Shuana who is also an influence on Serena and not just Ash.
Miette a rival of Serena spends more time teasing Serena about her crush than actually competing against her in Showcases
I don't think it's true at all that in the show that more of their rivalry was focused on Miette teasing Serena about Ash in the anime. I mean even in your post you agree that's the case. Miette in many ways is the opposite of Serena in how Miette is confident where Serena is not and using Ash to showcase that dichotomy was a great gag that the anime used to highlight that difference.
Serena is able to make a decision on what she will do after life after having a battle with Ash
I think that the battle with Ash was one of the many factors that led her to make the decision she did and it's characterized so in the anime.
There is more but I can't think of at the moment. What I'm saying is that if would of been nice if she had some form of development and or interactions that didn't intertwine with Ash.
There are plenty. That doesn't mean the anime isn't going to ignore Ash's influence on Serena and their relationship since it is one of the driving forces of her character and that's a good thing not a bad thing.
 
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AuraChannelerChris

"MY MIGHT. KNOWS. NO. BOUNDS!"
Serena can stand as a character, but unfortunately, she seemed too reliant on Ash as a motivation to keep going and he was always the one person she went to to discuss when she done goofed (i.e. someone tripped on the stage). Clemont and Bonnie were just there and certainly couldn't relate or help her much because Clemont was more of a quirky little battle (allergies to Serena) sidekick to Ash and Bonnie was the squad's generic cheerleader with no real backstory of her own.

The story, of course, wants us to default that Serena and Clemont were best friends. They just shrugged and held a pom-pom together for Ash.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
Serena went to showcases because of Shauna. In this sense, her "soon-to-be" rival was the one who showed the path for her. Kind of what happened to May on early Hoenn.

If anything Ash just gave her good advice and helped her. The decision to take on showcases was still Serena's after her interactions with Shauna.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Serena went to showcases because of Shauna. In this sense, her "soon-to-be" rival was the one who showed the path for her. Kind of what happened to May on early Hoenn.

If anything Ash just gave her good advice and helped her. The decision to take on showcases was still Serena's after her interactions with Shauna.
I think, to add to this, it's also worth saying that the battle with Ash simply helped her clear her head, but it was really her conversation with her mother and putting on the relief Showcase that helped define the direction she wanted to take.

Though I personally don't see anything wrong with characters influencing each other. Plenty of characters take inspiration, often from one other character; Serena is just the only one who seems to get flak for it.
 

Sham

Twitter= the origin of racism -mods 2021
I think that part of the dynamic with Miette was a fun gag that subtly puked fun of Serena's confidence issues and her proclivities for not taking the initiative. Again, people over focused on what were 5-10 seconds moments of Amour in what was mostly an episode focused on Serena's search for something to do.

First, as I've said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea that her development is intertwined with Ash.

There are plenty of aspects of her development that were explored that weren't directly intertwined with Ash. Episodes like #47, #50, #53, #60, and #64 among others are developmental episodes where Ash and Serena's relationship isn't the focal point of the episode at all and instead explore Serena's character through several different facts whether it be through her relationship with her Pokemon, her dynamic with Aria, her relationship with her mother, her failures with showcases, etc alongside her relationship with Ash.

That's not really why she left. Seeing Ash was her excuse to leave the house and start her journey because she didn't want to do Ryhorn Racing as she tells her mother that twice in the series.

I don't think that's remotely a fair interpretation of why Serena had Fennekin.

I don't think it's a bad thing that Serena went on a journey on self-discovery that led her to finding what she wanted to do in life just because Ash invited her too.

Even there, it's also Shuana who is also an influence on Serena and not just Ash.

I don't think it's true at all that in the show that more of their rivalry was focused on Miette teasing Serena about Ash in the anime. I mean even in your post you agree that's the case. Miette in many ways is the opposite of Serena in how Miette is confident where Serena is not and using Ash to showcase that dichotomy was a great gag that the anime used to highlight that difference.

I think that the battle with Ash was one of the many factors that led her to make the decision she did and it's characterized so in the anime.

There are plenty. That doesn't mean the anime isn't going to ignore Ash's influence on Serena and their relationship since it is one of the driving forces of her character and that's a good thing not a bad thing.
When I said "that isn't the focus of their rivalry" I was talking about the context of that episodes that I was referring to since it wasn't until the very end of the episode that Miette reveals she's also chasing Ash. Why she truly left is a subjective interpretation. She never explicitly says "I used finding Ash as an excuse to go on a journey. What we do know is that after she saw him she decided to grab a Pokemon and travel to his exact location and hand him back his property and therefore my point still stands. Most of your arguments is "I don't think" or " I think" so I'll try to argue around that since you can't really argue over someone's interpretations especially if they like the character in question. Even when you say things like " I think that the battle with Ash was one of the many factors" if that was the case why did she immediately stop the battle to run and talk to Plamero? Why did she decide a decision right after battling Ash? Couldn't it have been done earlier in the episode and give her time to reflect other things as well?

tldr; Most of Serena's actions especially in early XY are intertwined and centered around Ash and you even say this at the end albeit to a lesser extent and in a different way.
Serena went to showcases because of Shauna. In this sense, her "soon-to-be" rival was the one who showed the path for her. Kind of what happened to May on early Hoenn.

If anything Ash just gave her good advice and helped her. The decision to take on showcases was still Serena's after her interactions with Shauna.
And I never she joined Showcases for Ash. I said she questioned what she wanted to do with her life after seeing Ash and Shauna following their own dress.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
If anything Ash just gave her good advice and helped her. The decision to take on showcases was still Serena's after her interactions with Shauna.
I recall some viewers citing that as an example of Satoshi being a good mentor, but in hindsight all he did was give Serena simple advice that she would've gotten from another source eventually, anyway. I don't appreciate how sometimes Satoshi's vague pep talks are often overblown and treated as examples of him teaching his friends valuable lessons when in reality many of those instances are just empty dialogue.
 

AuraChannelerChris

"MY MIGHT. KNOWS. NO. BOUNDS!"
I feel like everyone forgot about Clemont already. Ha ha.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
She never explicitly says "I used finding Ash as an excuse to go on a journey.
While she never says that, she does explicitly say "At first I left because I didn't want to practice Rhyhorn Racing". We don't need her to say "I used finding Ash as an excuse" because the former line absolutely implies the latter. Her main motivation is to get away, not to find Ash. Therefore, Ash is the excuse, not the reason.
 
Why she truly left is a subjective interpretation. She never explicitly says "I used finding Ash as an excuse to go on a journey. What we do know is that after she saw him she decided to grab a Pokemon and travel to his exact location and hand him back his property and therefore my point still stands.
Lol, Serena explicitly told her mother that she left because she didn't want to do Rhyhorn Racing. Her exact words were " I wanted to get away from Rhyhorn Racing. " There's no subjective interpretation with that. My point about Serena using it as excuse is a subjective interpretation, but why Serena left isn't up for debate.
Most of your arguments is "I don't think" or " I think" so I'll try to argue around that since you can't really argue over someone's interpretations especially if they like the character in question. Even when you say things like " I think that the battle with Ash was one of the many factors" if that was the case why did she immediately stop the battle to run and talk to Plamero? Why did she decide a decision right after battling Ash? Couldn't it have been done earlier in the episode and give her time to reflect other things as well?
Sure, just remove the part where I said " I think then. " Stating things like " Serena got Fennekin to chase after Ash " is absurd on its face and not supported by evidence. Saying Serena left because of Ash is wrong as well based on the reality of the show.
tldr; Most of Serena's actions especially in early XY are intertwined and centered around Ash and you even say this at the end albeit to a lesser extent and in a different way.
Please don't try to put words in my mouth and try to redefine what I say to suit whatever narrative you want to try and push. I clearly stated Ash's relationship was a driver in Serena's character development and that was among the many other facets of her character that were explored along with her relationship with her Pokemon, her relationship with her mother, through her reactions and wins in showcases, and through her own personal struggles with coming to find her identity among other things.
 

Morax

Well-Known Member
>having your development revolve around someone and looking for motivation in that person is bAd
Here we go again...
Why can't people just admit that it's subjective and move on? You can't "prove" opinions.
 

Mr.Munchlax

Great Ball Rank Trainer
I mean they have a friend in common so sure. I wouldn’t say they weren’t friends. Do I believe they would of ever interacted if Ash wasn’t there? Probably not. While I agree with people that you don’t need to explicitly say two people are friends for them be considered friends; I definitely would of liked to see more of a dynamic between them. I’m currently rewatching XY and I’m like on the summer camp arc and I genuinely say I can remember very few moments where they interacted besides Serena reacting to his inventions not working.
The only instances I can think of are when Clemont was filming Serena in the Pokevision video, when Serena and Clemont tried to stop Pancham and Chespin from fighting, and when they went to the dance party together due to Eevee feeling the most comfortable around Bunnelby.
 

Kazuniya

Pikachub
I recall some viewers citing that as an example of Satoshi being a good mentor, but in hindsight all he did was give Serena simple advice that she would've gotten from another source eventually, anyway. I don't appreciate how sometimes Satoshi's vague pep talks are often overblown and treated as examples of him teaching his friends valuable lessons when in reality many of those instances are just empty dialogue.
This, lol.

People are even trying to attribute Serena finding a goal to Ash, when it's not due to Ash, but the summer camp arc where she was surrounded by a bunch of trainers who had goals, like Shauna, Trevor and Tierno. If anything, it was Shauna who helped Serena find a goal, not Ash.

Literally, the only thing Ash contributed to was giving Serena an excuse to run away from home, which she would have probably done anyway because she hated Rhyhorn racing. So ultimately it's pointless. Amourshipping did little for her character and I have yet to see any legitimate proof that the crush helped Serena's character to grow.

Ash's relationship was a driver in Serena's character development
It was not. Her "relationship" with Ash didn't provide anything valuable to Serena's character, and you still haven't given a single shred of evidence to convince me otherwise.

Again, remove Ash from the equation, and Serena's Performer storyline would have unfolded in the exact same way. Same failures, same struggles, same developments, same growth. Ash had little/nothing to do with it except be used as a shipping bait.


>having your development revolve around someone and looking for motivation in that person is BAD
This is incorrect and wrong. Serena's development certainly did not REVOLVE around Ash, lol. Serena had a crush on Ash, which was ultimately inconsequential because it had zero impact on her journey and growth as a Performer.
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I am just confused about one thing. Why are people claiming that Ash was the person who made Serena realize that she has no goals or dreams in life? I think people need to rewatch the first episode of the arc because it's not until meeting Shauna, Trevor and Tierno that Serena realizes that everyone has some sort of goal but her. Before that, it seemed that Serena was totally fine with not having a goal and just chasing Ash around. It was having other trainers around her that helped her open her eyes and realize she needs to do something with herself.

Serena realized that she needed a goal because of? Shauna, Trevor and Tierno.
Serena discovered Tripokalons because of? Shauna.

Legit, if you want to claim like Serena's development is tied to one person, it might as well be Shauna.
 
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Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
A thing I wish the show clarified (or maybe it was and I missed) is wether turned 10 the day she set up on her journey or if she was postponning it for some reason.

I mean, for all the "she left home because of Ash" talk, that bit would be helpful since if she happened to turn 10 on that day, the Ash thing becomes more a convenient coincidence than something that drives her.
 

Morax

Well-Known Member
A thing I wish the show clarified (or maybe it was and I missed) is wether turned 10 the day she set up on her journey or if she was postponning it for some reason.

I mean, for all the "she left home because of Ash" talk, that bit would be helpful since if she happened to turn 10 on that day, the Ash thing becomes more a convenient coincidence than something that drives her.
She was a hikikomori until she saw ash jump off the tower. It's more likely she was procrastinating as opposed to turning 10 that very day.
 

Morax

Well-Known Member
This is incorrect and wrong. Serena's development certainly did not REVOLVE around Ash, lol. Serena had a crush on Ash, which was ultimately inconsequential because it had zero impact on her journey and growth as a Performer
This is my last reply to (you).

1) I'm not the one claiming that Serena's development revolved around ash, i'm only arguing against the viewpoint that being reliant on someone makes a character "bad" or "pathetic".

2) Her journey and growth began the day she reunited with ash. Tripokalon were just a phase. "never give up until the end" is the quintessence of her development and that is something ash taught her. Once again i'm not saying that her character revolves around ash but that he's the catalyst in the equation and the fact that she decided to not give up on the person who taught her that lesson is what i find wholesome and poetic.
 

Sham

Twitter= the origin of racism -mods 2021
A thing I wish the show clarified (or maybe it was and I missed) is wether turned 10 the day she set up on her journey or if she was postponning it for some reason.

I mean, for all the "she left home because of Ash" talk, that bit would be helpful since if she happened to turn 10 on that day, the Ash thing becomes more a convenient coincidence than something that drives her.
Despite the anime not having official ages and everyone being “10” I think it’s safe to assume she probably didn’t turn ten that exact episode since the anime usually connects that with getting your first Pokémon (ie Ash, May and Dawn). Serena not knowing what she wanted to do with her life might of contributed to her delay in getting a Pokémon.

Also sidebar while on the topic of Showcases, I really wish they would of explained how competing in Contests would help Serena be a better performer. Contests takes away one key major aspects of Showcases and added an unnecessary one.

A. The performer is removed from the equation and therefore reduces their role in the action. Contest are dedicated to showing of your Pokémon while in Showcases the performer has to be just as engaged

B. Battles aren’t involved in Showcases and thus forcing Serena to focus on another aspect she won’t really need in Showcases.
 
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It was not. Her "relationship" with Ash didn't provide anything valuable to Serena's character, and you still haven't given a single shred of evidence to convince me otherwise.

Again, remove Ash from the equation, and Serena's Performer storyline would have unfolded in the exact same way. Same failures, same struggles, same developments, same growth. Ash had little/nothing to do with it except be used as a shipping bait.
Buddy, I could post mountains of evidence that you're hilariously wrong about something yet you'd still equivocate and dance around the evidence I give you because that's what you've done before. Last time you posted incredibly embarrassing bullsh*t about XY and other people including me corrected you, you literally lashed out and accused other people of attacking you and didn't even apologize for being wrong and spreading false information lmao.

When I say you post certified bait that isn't worth responding to or taking seriously besides using as a good laugh, I meant it.
 
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