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Discussing how we criticise the Pokemon anime

Halolady

walking on eggshells
Generally speaking, a kid's show has a simpler presentation of its contents. There's usually very little foreshadowing and subtext, plot points are explained and there's far less left to interpretation from the audience. Also, there's the highly structured nature of the narrative, which makes the show a lot easier to watch.

To give an example for the how presentation and execution is different: compare how Pokemon handled Stoutland's death to, say, how a Shonen show like Naruto or One Piece handled a death. Note how in Pokemon, you never see a body, nor is the word death explicitly mentioned or discussed.
The problem with this example is that bodies and such aren't so much an indication of presentation quality as they are the presentation itself. Corpses, discussions regarding death and the like are merely ways which the writers use to get the message across to the viewers that a death has occurred; they don't necessarily represent the writing quality itself. A death with all of those dark elements can still as easily be mishandled, and a death without any of those elements can just as effectively get its' message across to the viewers via good, fluent writing.

The quality of the execution hinges on how competently the writers integrate the implications behind that death into the show, rather than how they portray the death itself. For example, how will this death affect the narrative in the long run? Can it be tied into another on-going plotline, or should it be left a stand-alone event? Are there any hidden meanings behind it that can be used to add substance to the plot? These are all the questions that the writers must ask themselves in order to make the most out of that death; it doesn't have anything to do with the elements which the writers choose to portray it with (i.e. Corpses, dark atmosphere etc. or not), hence it is entirely possible for both medias to handle death in a way which is satisfying to the viewer regardless of age (unless if the viewer specifically wants dark elements integrated into the plot).
 
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mystic9899

Pokemon fan
personally, i think it's fine to criticize the show since, well, pokemon has never really been a well-written show. it's only reason for its existence is to sell merchandise. although i do find it a little creepy how some people will take a criticism towards something small and massively blow it out of proportion.
 

SinnohEevee

Well-Known Member
How much do little kids care about good writing?
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
How much do little kids care about good writing?

If the popularity of Avatar among the 6-11 demographic is anything to be considered, then they care a lot. Even they have a limit to how many times jiggling keys in front of them will work
 

Bahmo

Well-Known Member
How much do little kids care about good writing?

If the popularity of Avatar among the 6-11 demographic is anything to be considered, then they care a lot. Even they have a limit to how many times jiggling keys in front of them will work

The key question to be asked here is what constitutes "good writing". Possibly, that's subjective. However, whatever "good" is, it's pretty easy to compare the Pokemon anime to other shows aimed at the same age bracket, and see that they are different. I am quite certain that, if you took away the video games the Pokemon anime is hawking, it would not be able to stand on its own. Some children's shows could, because enough children would tune in for the shows themselves that sponsors would keep buying ad space on them.

Also, even when you factor in the "merchandise-driven" angle, the Pokemon anime probably can't compare to other stuff of the same caliber. Most critics hated Pokemon: The First Movie. Most critics loved The LEGO Movie. The idea that something being aimed primarily at children means you shouldn't do much work on it is largely fallacy, because in fact, extra work can actually bring in a larger audience without sacrificing the core audience. Of course there are fringe exceptions; start throwing in jokes about genitals and pretty soon the show won't be fit for child consumption. However, a show having jokes at all or not having them can make the difference between people watching it who only do because it reminds them of a video game that they want and/or like, and people also watching it who don't care about that. Sonic Boom hasn't exactly given consumers stellar video games that I want to buy, but I still watch it because it's full of jokes; many of which I find hilarious.

Honestly, the anime has a good message executed really poorly. The "losing is okay" message would be good if the protagonist bothered to sit down, count his losses, and see the patterns. That is why the Kalos League will be my least favorite. Rather than show passion, he smiles it off. I don't care if he apologized. His actions spoke louder than words.

I've also heard apologists--including The Pokemon Company itself, I think--claim that the anime sends a good message about friendship. Funny, I think if friendship had value in this anime, Ash wouldn't constantly be abandoning his friends, human and Pokemon alike, in his continuous search for glory. This crap happens, once again, because Ash is always being dragged away from becoming a likable character in order to become a substitute for the new game avatars instead.
 
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Azerolf

Member
I think dismissing mature themes as "dark themes" is missing the point.

Take Pixar movies. They are meant for all ages, and yet they are able to convey messages you could learn no matter your age. Parental abandonment (Toy Story 2), losing your child (Finding Nemo), what it means to love someone (Wall-E), why it's okay and even important to be sad (Inside Out), etc, etc. Those are not "dark" and inappropriate messages for children - they are essential messages for children. Beats twerking any day.

To take another animated example, take a look at that little known, underrated Disney classic, Fillmore. Remember that? The Law & Order parody set in a school ground? Lots of emotional messages too about honesty, integrity, handling loss of your loved ones, handling defeat. A lot of these important messages could be found in the better episodes of Pokemon too, so it's not exactly impossible for Pokemon to reach these heights of writing.

A lot of people misinterpreted Pokemon's lesson to be, "It's okay to lose." I feel like that's missing the point. Ash improved a lot since his Kanto days. It's more like "You will improve despite losing. Learn from your losses." The evidence is clear: Top 16 (Kanto), Top 8 (Johto), Top 4 (Sinnoh), Runner-Up (Kalos). So yes, maybe Pokemon seems childish at the worse of times, but then you have the occasional Stoutland episode, whew. Pokemon is definitely not just a "childish" anime. That's giving it too little credit.
 

Crystal

The Pokemon Observer
When credits is truly deserved, credits will be given without begging. When something is underappreciated, there must be some reason that prevents ones to give out credits.

Azerolf just mentioned an important fandom phenomenon: Many people misinterprets Pokemon's inner messages behind its story.
But, I can't help but have to counterquestion: Do those people truly misinterpreted the inner message? Wasn't Pokemon Anime rather using the wrong narrative tropes to portray those messages? Or, maybe in fact, Pokemon Anime doesn't even have any inner message to tell? Hence audience judge it subjectively based on the status quo it continued throughout all these years?

I like to dig into the meta issues of Pokemon Anime, where I will search for interviews and read articles about the staffs and anything behind the scenes of Pokemon Anime, trying to understand what do they think of this project and how they feel about their work. For one thing about all the researches and observations I had done so far, I couldn't recall any mentions from the latest staffs saying they designed the story and outline the plot with the premise of wanting to convey any sophisticated humanity themes. The only person who had such intention was the very first head writer Shudo Takeshi, but according to his blog, very sadly the superior higher-ups seems like isn't very fond of Pokemon Anime becoming too sophisticated. So many year had pasted, I still doubt the current executives that hold the utmost decision-making power had any change in their thinking, because I feel the "themelessness" of Pokemon Anime becoming stronger as it went into later sagas.

Can Pokemon Anime implanted more humanity themes into its plot? Sure, such as SM021, but it felt like once in a blue moon. When 99% of its episodes were just helping/battling some other trainers or pokemon without any much important inner messages, it is understandable that the occasional really good 1% shall be neglected.
 

Azerolf

Member
When credits is truly deserved, credits will be given without begging. When something is underappreciated, there must be some reason that prevents ones to give out credits.

Azerolf just mentioned an important fandom phenomenon: Many people misinterprets Pokemon's inner messages behind its story.
But, I can't help but have to counterquestion: Do those people truly misinterpreted the inner message? Wasn't Pokemon Anime rather using the wrong narrative tropes to portray those messages? Or, maybe in fact, Pokemon Anime doesn't even have any inner message to tell? Hence audience judge it subjectively based on the status quo it continued throughout all these years?
I would like to bring up something YouTube movie critic Movie Bob mentioned in one of his recent videos:
"The Fearless Girl", a wax bronze statue by artist Kristen Visbal was installed on New York's Bowling Green, Wall Street, one day prior to International Women's Day 2017. It depicts a young girl standing defiantly against an unseen force with implied permanently windblown hair and clothing. It was initially accompanied by a plaque since removed and replaced, reading "Know the power of women in leadership. SHE makes a difference."

Immediately of note is that while The Fearless Girl installation itself doesn't include a specific depiction of what exactly she is standing unafraid of, the statue's placement of at least one unmistakable contextual connotation: Fearless Girl is placed directly opposite and facing another unrelated bronze statue, "The Charging Bull", which has occupied its own space on Bowling Green since 1989 and is widely viewed as a symbol of aggressive market capitalism, given its Wall Street location, the historical connotations of the term, "bull market", and its origin tied to the stock market crash of the late 1980s. In this context, the Fearless Girl's installation was immediately interpreted by much of the popular culture to not simply be a generic feminist platitude, but a very specific statement of resistance towards the hyper-masculine, retrograde, patriarchal American conservatism embodied by the elevation of explicitly anti-feminist candidate Donald Trump to the presidency of the United States.
Long story short, people misinterpreted The Fearless Girl as a symbol of feminism when it's really a corporate art meant to promote a Wall Street brand, while they ironically misinterpreted The Charging Bull as a corporate art, when the intention behind its installation was more genuine and sincere (a symbol of the strength of the American people). They got it backwards and misinterpreted the intentions behind these two works of art.

In other words, people misinterpret any work art all the time. The intention doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, because as much as it seems like a meaningless phrase, "art is subjective" rings true, and people can and should be allowed to interpret a work of art any way they like - including Pokemon.

On the more practical side of things, does that mean we will be blind to the fact that Ash might very well never win a League? But it's really not a simple fact of whether we dismiss his losses, however, because the real heartfelt message here is that we do see his losses, but the more optimistic of us choose to see the brighter side of his victories, and how much he has improved as a trainer, rather than let ourselves be fixated on what a bunch of toy-sellers are trying to feed us.

A funny coincidence I should bring up: that quote by Movie Bob was from his video defending Transformers: The (animated) Movie. It was obviously of poor production and meant to market toys, but generations of kids had grew up with it interpreting it as something more heartfelt. I feel the same is true here for Pokemon.

To be clear, I genuinely desire for "good writing" to be present, to have every single animation be as philosophical and meaningful as Pixar's classics, but at the end of the day, I think there's really no harm in staying positive about a work of art regardless of its actual context, and such naive positive perspectives of the show should even be something we celebrate about and discuss in length. While Pokemon might very well have no satisfying conclusion for any of us, Ash included, the subjectiveness of it all makes such a possibility absurd and even cynical. Considering that Naruto and One Piece have reached their ends (Naruto running for a shorter lifespan than Pokemon), I wouldn't be so quick to think that the Pokemon producers are all the kind of corporate greedy-bags we would like to think.

By the way, where DP and XY are concerned, I wouldn't necessarily think that the good is merely 1%. I would at least give it 15%.
 
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U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
Honestly, the anime has a good message executed really poorly. The "losing is okay" message would be good if the protagonist bothered to sit down, count his losses, and see the patterns. That is why the Kalos League will be my least favorite. Rather than show passion, he smiles it off. I don't care if he apologized. His actions spoke louder than words.
 

Bahmo

Well-Known Member
When credits is truly deserved, credits will be given without begging. When something is underappreciated, there must be some reason that prevents ones to give out credits.

Azerolf just mentioned an important fandom phenomenon: Many people misinterprets Pokemon's inner messages behind its story.
But, I can't help but have to counterquestion: Do those people truly misinterpreted the inner message? Wasn't Pokemon Anime rather using the wrong narrative tropes to portray those messages? Or, maybe in fact, Pokemon Anime doesn't even have any inner message to tell? Hence audience judge it subjectively based on the status quo it continued throughout all these years?

I like to dig into the meta issues of Pokemon Anime, where I will search for interviews and read articles about the staffs and anything behind the scenes of Pokemon Anime, trying to understand what do they think of this project and how they feel about their work. For one thing about all the researches and observations I had done so far, I couldn't recall any mentions from the latest staffs saying they designed the story and outline the plot with the premise of wanting to convey any sophisticated humanity themes. The only person who had such intention was the very first head writer Shudo Takeshi, but according to his blog, very sadly the superior higher-ups seems like isn't very fond of Pokemon Anime becoming too sophisticated. So many year had pasted, I still doubt the current executives that hold the utmost decision-making power had any change in their thinking, because I feel the "themelessness" of Pokemon Anime becoming stronger as it went into later sagas.

Can Pokemon Anime implanted more humanity themes into its plot? Sure, such as SM021, but it felt like once in a blue moon. When 99% of its episodes were just helping/battling some other trainers or pokemon without any much important inner messages, it is understandable that the occasional really good 1% shall be neglected.

I'd like to add something to that: I would argue that when you get the very rare episode that teases that something deeper is going on, that nothing is every done to build on it makes it worse. Take the Team Rocket trio; for example: The difference between chortling at them failing miserably at their schemes, and chortling at, say, Wile E Coyote or Rocksteady and Bebop failing, is that we've had episodes talking about the origin of all three of the Rocket trio that show they have deeper, more sympathetic sides to them. Moreover, while they suck at capturing Pokemon, in large part because they neglect ever raising their own, they're occasionally shown as having talents in other things. Sadly, the show seems obsessed with keeping them in the villain role. From what I've read, they've either stayed incompetent comic relief villains most of the time, albeit frequently more obnoxious than funny, or they've taken a turn at being competent villains but at the cost of their identity and even less funny. I noted above that it's probably not possible to make Team Rocket competent long-term, since they're being forced into retracing the plot of video games wherein Team Rocket doesn't even exist.
 
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