Do you care about companions “out shinning” Ash?

[Leonhart]

It's actually very recurring. Sometimes it feels like this whole "Ash should leave/be replaced" talk comes every once a year. It's basically a tradition like Easter, Christmas or Thanksgiving.

It is recurring, but I've always found it frustrating because the odds of Satoshi leaving have never been high enough to bet on, not even after SM despite him winning a Pokemon League and viewers assuming that he had peaked.

 

[Rockapheller]

This isn't unpopular. So many people have brought up some variation of the anime going on without Ash whether it'd be letting each new generation's respective protagonist be the MC like Ash to Red or speculating since XY if this would be his last season.

Good to know. When I brought such things up on other forums, the sole respond I received was it being too late to replace Ash at this point, which I personally believe it is never too late for anything if we are talking about a franchise that still apparently has at least another 25 years on the horizon.

But my point wasn't about whether Ash would or should be replaced or not anyway. I am all for giving spotlight to companions as much as Ash receives. That is pretty much it. Up until Goh (and maybe Alola companions can be considered an exception as well), male companions suffered from it more than any other. Brock, Cilan and Clemont in particular did have their time, yes, but compared to the female companions and especially Ash, their amount of being under the spotlight was criminally low.

 

[Ignition]

Good to know. When I brought such things up on other forums, the sole respond I received was it being too late to replace Ash at this point, which I personally believe it is never too late for anything if we are talking about a franchise that still apparently has at least another 25 years on the horizon.

I agree. It seems most people have accepted the fact the fact that he'll never be replaced or written off the show so I don't think it's that people aren't opposed to him being replaced but moreso doubtful of it. Personally I can see it going either way but leaning more towards him staying around

 

[Leonhart]

But my point wasn't about whether Ash would or should be replaced or not anyway. I am all for giving spotlight to companions as much as Ash receives. That is pretty much it. Up until Goh (and maybe Alola companions can be considered an exception as well), male companions suffered from it more than any other. Brock, Cilan and Clemont in particular did have their time, yes, but compared to the female companions and especially Ash, their amount of being under the spotlight was criminally low.

The thing is that for the longest time the writers were at least able to balance out the screen-time among Satoshi [a boy] and the female companions, so there was gender equality in terms of screen-time [or as close as it could get, at least]. That sort of shifted a bit in XY since Serena and Eureka only had sparse moments of importance, and in the current series that's a bigger problem than ever considering how Koharu's been treated so far: I suppose she's not technically a female traveling companion, but she's the next best thing.

 

[AJ97]

I don't think Ash's companions excelling in their respective fields correlates to them outshining Ash. I honestly think this has become an issue only after the introduction of Goh. In the prior series, since Ash was the protagonist, it was obvious that most of the special captures/popular pokemon would go to him and not his companions which is obviously something important to a lot of people. However, in this series, since Goh is a main protagonist alongside Ash, some of these special pokemon/popular pokemon captures get shared between Ash and him. And also taking into consideration the fact that Goh is a rookie and Ash is a veteran trainer, people tend to get all the more upset when the former is given these prized awesome pokemon which Ash deserves more than him.

The only other way a traveling companion could've technically outshined Ash is if they were also Pokemon Trainers who wanted to take part in the regional leagues or the pwc etc and faired better than Ash. If Goh entered the pwc and comes close to Ash's rank, people would flip. Or if Goh entered the Galar league and ended up winning it (Unless they do something to establish the Galar regional league trainers are significantly inferior to trainers around Ash's rank in the pwc).

So in conclusion, I think people only seem to care if the traveling companion's success in something. makes Ash look bad. In Kalos, Serena technically won the Regional League Alternative of the Pokemon Showcase and went toe to toe with the Kalos Queen who in theory is relative to the regional champion. In other words, This would've been Ash winning the regional league and then losing against Diantha but her success doesn't necessarily make Ash look bad as they both are in completely different fields.

 

[Leonhart]

So in conclusion, I think people only seem to care if the traveling companion's success in something. makes Ash look bad. In Kalos, Serena technically won the Regional League Alternative of the Pokemon Showcase and went toe to toe with the Kalos Queen who in theory is relative to the regional champion. In other words, This would've been Ash winning the regional league and then losing against Diantha but her success doesn't necessarily make Ash look bad as they both are in completely different fields.

I'm sure there's some truth to that. Almost nobody has a problem with Haruka or Hikari's Contest arcs taking up time, because they weren't pursuing a goal that intervened with Satoshi's progress or made him look bad: even though Hikari did better than Satoshi at Contests during the rare times that Satoshi got involved, nobody minded because Contests were never meant to be Satoshi's forte in the first place.

 

[Ragnarok4]

Making references to previous comments, I really like contests, but in my opinion they have a huge flaw

In the second round, if you weaken your opponent regardless of not showing some kind of artistic performance, you simply move on to the next round.

The showcases are more attached to the logic of the games, which is based on the presentations and I find it with much more sense, although they are less exciting.

Perfomers are literally idols

 

[RafaSceptile]

I don't think Ash's companions excelling in their respective fields correlates to them outshining Ash. I honestly think this has become an issue only after the introduction of Goh. In the prior series, since Ash was the protagonist, it was obvious that most of the special captures/popular pokemon would go to him and not his companions which is obviously something important to a lot of people. However, in this series, since Goh is a main protagonist alongside Ash, some of these special pokemon/popular pokemon captures get shared between Ash and him. And also taking into consideration the fact that Goh is a rookie and Ash is a veteran trainer, people tend to get all the more upset when the former is given these prized awesome pokemon which Ash deserves more than him.

Ash already had a lot of prizes and good Pokémon during almost 23 years. Since Journeys is the sequel of the previous six series, is fine if Goh has more Development than Ash, especially at the start of Pokémon Journeys.

 

[DatsRight]

Ash already had a lot of prizes and good Pokémon during almost 23 years. Since Journeys is the sequel of the previous six series, is fine if Goh has more Development than Ash, especially at the start of Pokémon Journeys.

I think they mean more in the sense that if Goh managed to match Ash in ONE series compared to the 23 years it took for Ash to earn all that stuff. Like it took Ash six series to win a league, it would be an insult if Goh won one in one try with way less effort and experience.

Granted I think if that was the case he'd be showing up the previous companions more so than Ash, who seldom have even got that far.

Goal wise, Goh feels a bit segregated from Ash, who doesn't often chase elusive Pokemon anyway. His one mythical was already tame and eager to be captured. In that stance Goh can't really upstage him getting Mew anyway because Ash never really tried.

I will add however that if a companion is able to match the good parts of Ash arc wise, they must also get the BAD. I think this might be why many are rather in-and-out with companions getting big accomplishments because they sometimes dither more at letting the protagonists LOSE at things that often. They treat some of them curbstomping jobbers like Team Rocket, bulking up their Pokemon through plot armour, and having maybe one single match they were challenged or suffered a proper KO as making them a good battler for example, which feels farcical. Not that Ash ISN'T guilty of some of those issues, but he's had genuine hardships. He's got his ass kicked multiple times and had to TRAIN AND BE CLEVER. He's not a character shielded from ever looking like a 'loser' or like he isn't good enough. He faces harsh reality as well as the spoils. You get a character whose arc is like his but diluted to just the victories then of course he'll seem undermined.

 

[British Soul]

So in conclusion, I think people only seem to care if the traveling companion's success in something. makes Ash look bad. In Kalos, Serena technically won the Regional League Alternative of the Pokemon Showcase and went toe to toe with the Kalos Queen who in theory is relative to the regional champion. In other words, This would've been Ash winning the regional league and then losing against Diantha but her success doesn't necessarily make Ash look bad as they both are in completely different fields.

I wonder if we can group Dawn's accomplishments in Sinnoh in that category. She got to the final of the Grand Festival, which was one step further than Ash got in the Sinnoh League.

 

[RafaSceptile]

I think they mean more in the sense that if Goh managed to match Ash in ONE series compared to the 23 years it took for Ash to earn all that stuff. Like it took Ash six series to win a league, it would be an insult if Goh won one in one try with way less effort and experience.

Granted I think if that was the case he'd be showing up the previous companions more so than Ash, who seldom have even got that far.

Goal wise, Goh feels a bit segregated from Ash, who doesn't often chase elusive Pokemon anyway. His one mythical was already tame and eager to be captured. In that stance Goh can't really upstage him getting Mew anyway because Ash never really tried.

I will add however that if a companion is able to match the good parts of Ash arc wise, they must also get the BAD. I think this might be why many are rather in-and-out with companions getting big accomplishments because they sometimes dither more at letting the protagonists LOSE at things that often. They treat some of them curbstomping jobbers like Team Rocket, bulking up their Pokemon through plot armour, and having maybe one single match they were challenged or suffered a proper KO as making them a good battler for example, which feels farcical. Not that Ash ISN'T guilty of some of those issues, but he's had genuine hardships. He's got his ass kicked multiple times and had to TRAIN AND BE CLEVER. He's not a character shielded from ever looking like a 'loser' or like he isn't good enough. He faces harsh reality as well as the spoils. You get a character whose arc is like his but diluted to just the victories then of course he'll seem undermined.

But Goh is not on par with Ash. He is a lot weaker in battle and the only thing he has (and still isn't confirmed) is a

Spoiler: Pokémon Journeys

Zapdos

which is not so amazing tbh

 

[Flashyspark]

It's not that I don't care it's that Ash's pals rarely get more attention than Ash. And I know that some people think Ash's new buddy Goh is taking his screen time but that's an exaggeration because Ash still gets all the important battle episodes.

 

[DatsRight]

But Goh is not on par with Ash. He is a lot weaker in battle and the only thing he has (and still isn't confirmed) is a

Spoiler: Pokémon Journeys

Zapdos

which is not so amazing tbh

Yeah I'm not saying Goh is an example yet, just that's the in-theory way of 'outshining' him. Right now he's just kind of like Dawn in terms of being more a co-protagonist than companion.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Yeah I'm not saying Goh is an example yet, just that's the in-theory way of 'outshining' him. Right now he's just kind of like Dawn in terms of being more a co-protagonist than companion.

I was saying this more for the Goh haters just because most of they are mad because he is "outshining" Ash, but they forgot the complains about Serena not having a goal during 50+ Episodes in XY

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

Yeah I'm not saying Goh is an example yet, just that's the in-theory way of 'outshining' him. Right now he's just kind of like Dawn in terms of being more a co-protagonist than companion.

Better being a Dawn than another Serena/SM group (excluding Lillie) in terms of screentime imo

 

[Leonhart]

I was saying this more for the Goh haters just because most of they are mad because he is "outshining" Ash, but they forgot the complains about Serena not having a goal during 50+ Episodes in XY

I think some viewers simply don't like extremes: they don't want characters to overshadow Satoshi, but at the same time they don't like it when characters take almost a year to acquire a proper goal. If I had to choose one or the other, I'd rather have more characters like Gou, in any case.

 

[RafaSceptile]

I think some viewers simply don't like extremes: they don't want characters to overshadow Satoshi, but at the same time they don't like it when characters take almost a year to acquire a proper goal. If I had to choose one or the other, I'd rather have more characters like Gou, in any case.

The second option is not as bad when the characters have time to development in its goal. Sadly, it wasn't the case with Serena, but it works fine with May because she has 2 regions and like 130+ episodes, almost an XY series of time

 

[Ubermuk]

I wonder if we can group Dawn's accomplishments in Sinnoh in that category. She got to the final of the Grand Festival, which was one step further than Ash got in the Sinnoh League.

It seems like hardly anyone takes Pokemon contests as seriously as gyms or Pokemon leagues so I bet nobody felt that Ash's Sinnoh legacy was tarnished by Dawn's runner-up position at the Grand Festival.

 

[DatsRight]

It seems like hardly anyone takes Pokemon contests as seriously as gyms or Pokemon leagues so I bet nobody felt that Ash's Sinnoh legacy was tarnished by Dawn's runner-up position at the Grand Festival.

I suppose it was also the balance in storytelling. Dawn was showing struggling A LOT to get how far she had so in that sense it still sort of felt like similar progression, just more compressed.

Plus most will relent that Tobias was a much more formidable roadblock than Zoey. Tobias had legendary Pokemon and was pretty much treated as unstoppable. Zoey had lost to trainers before, such as May, and was treated more as an experienced but mortal rival who just had the protagonist's number each time.

It's why I don't relent Sophocles' 'crash course' in Ultra Legends either, since Sophocles was still often presented as the underdog in his battles and was implied to have trained a lot and intertwined a lot of his previous niches into a battle style. He wasn't just suddenly on Kiawe's level with little effort at all.

This is why some are doubtful about Serena being able to match Ash by the end of XY for example, since while Ash had reached the LEAGUE FINALS, Serena had never even been allowed to finish a battle above Team Rocket level, it wasn't her main thing nor did it tie in as much to her showcase talents like say the contests do. Even abiding by the idea that Ash was going easy on her, she'd not shown nearly the same strategic abilities as she did in that match before. It felt like a case of her suddenly being competent because they wanted her to be (which was even more annoying for those sour about Ash losing both the league and Greninja; experience was all he had by then).

 

[SerenaRulez]

It's not that I don't care it's that Ash's pals rarely get more attention than Ash. And I know that some people think Ash's new buddy Goh is taking his screen time but that's an exaggeration because Ash still gets all the important battle episodes.

I don't like it when people say that Goh is getting too much attention because if you compare it with the 1000 episodes Ash has appeared in Goh's episode count looks so tiny.