Do you consider the Alola league to be a “ real league? “

[Genaller]

You and I have incompatible views about this. This isn't a real life sporting event where the prowess of the competitors can be measured, but a story where the narrative significance of the battles are the most important thing. Characters with build-up face other characters with build-up because it creates dramatic stakes and tension, whereas a character introduced specifically for the tournament vs a main character lacks the same narrative weight. For example, Ash vs Katie in the Hoenn League. Katie seems a good trainer, which makes Ash's win impressive, but the only significance to that fight was Ash progressing to the next round. Going back to the example I used, I would not give a damn if Ash beat a bunch of trainers who have been rigorously screened and are "objectively" strong if I knew nothing about said characters.

I'm not going to argue about the weight of achievement because I've already acknowledged that the standard of competition isn't as high as other leagues. But being a lower standard doesn't diminish the league's legitimacy. The winner proves himself the best within that group of trainers, and assumes a recognised position in the story. Ash winning would be an accomplishment for him, as something he's not done very often, and while it may not be as big a deal as you'd like it to be, it'd be a significant point in the story and for Ash's character.

What you seem to be undermining is that Ash striving to win 1 of these league conferences has been a key long term narrative of this show in and of itself meaning that him finally winning a league conference is meant to be the culmination of said 20+ year narrative; however, because the standard of competition is so blatantly inferior, this league seemingly being the conclusion is extremely unsatisfying to many long time fans, and I’m sure you should be able to understand that whether you ‘give a damn’ about this long term narrative or not. I’ll give you that this can still be considered a meaningful accomplishment for Ash in isolation (still not as impressive as conquering the battle frontier); however, that notion falls flat if this is supposed to be the accomplishment that all of Ash’s other league performances were building up to. The question of whether we’d be as satisfied with Ash winning this league as we would have with him winning any other conference can be translated to the following equivalent question:

If Ash wins this league, would this achievement serve as an acceptable conclusion to the series long narrative of Ash competing in and actively trying to win a league conference?

My answer would be a resounding NO.

I acknowledged this in a previous post. What I'll say here is that the number of "legitimate league contenders" in previous leagues has always been small. There has never been a league where every competitor was viewed as a potential winner, and we've always known which ones would go deep and which wouldn't. In the Kalos League, you only had Ash and Alain. In Sinnoh, it was Ash, Paul and Tobias. In Hoenn, it was Ash or Tyson, and now in Alola, you've got Ash, Guzma and Gladion. So if you're going to criticise the Alola League for not having convincing competitors, then you have to criticise every other league, too.

It seems you’ve gravely misunderstood my definition of ‘legitimate league contender’. It simply means that the trainer in question satisfies certain quality standards which can be verified by achievements like having collected 8 of a region’s gym badges. When I said over 2/3rds of those top 16 trainers aren’t legitimate, I meant there’s no way in the distortion world that they’d be capable of qualifying for the league conferences of any other region; that’s all.

I'll finish with this, because I don't want this to be a circular debate:

Our views on many issues with the show are polarising and we've never reached an agreement on anything. I don't care about which trainer is objectively the strongest, which Pokemon you think are objectively stronger than others, and whatever system you have to determine whether something is an achievement or not.

I don’t particularly care what you think of this show as long as you understand why many long term fans consider this league conference to be unsatisfying.

I don't believe, for one second, that the writers create battles with any of that mind.

Some do and some don’t. I can make fairly strong cases that several writers did to varying degrees based on the specific battle episodes they wrote.

I know full well that making trainers seem strong and giving them significant victories over strong opponents lends itself to the narrative, but for me, it's not something that has to be so specific you can measure it. Most of all, I'm more interested in the narrative stakes behind the fight, and how the fight itself reflects those stakes in the action. The league is merely the stage for those fights to occur, ensuring there's more significance to the outcome than just your average fight.

Believe what you will but with that mindset understand that you’re dismissing a key overarching narrative of this show.

Just to be clear the narrative surrounding and during individual fights does matter (and even in that sense I consider the Alola League to be well below par), but it should not be at the expense of compromising a 2 decade old overarching narrative which is what happened here (the real reason this league had no barriers to entry was because the writers wanted several individuals to participate but either didn’t want to focus on giving them arcs where they cleared said barriers or didn’t think them clearing it would be believable).

 

[Lunanight]

I voted no because it's not as important as other leagues, where league that Samson Oak, Team Skull and Trio can participate on same level as Kalos league for an example? Where? Nowhere. Lmao.
This is just advanced Junior Cup or something.
This league is not minor like Don or JC, it's nor major like Kalos, Unova, Hoenn etc.
So I give it middle.
Edit: changed to I don't know.
This is how it goes:
Major stuff: Kalos = Unova = Sinnoh = Hoenn= Johto = Kanto (leagues)
Middle stuff: Orange League = BF = Alola league ( that's why Ash can win it because it's major)
Mini/Minor Stuff: JC = Don Tournaments= Rota Tournament etc
Change my mind.

I'd argue that the Alola League was most comparable to the JC or Don tournaments in terms of the types of battles there were. Alola League was just 1v1 for most of it, aside from a 2v2 in the semis, and 3v3 for the finals. Alola League had no requirements whatsoever just like the JC and Don tournaments so its an appropriate comparison IMO.

As for the hierarachy of importance, I don't think its as simple as Leagues > BF > Side tournaments in terms of skill. I'd argue that the Battle Frontier is not only Ash's greatest victory in the anime, but that the Frontier Brains are stronger than almost every single trainer who competes in the Leagues. The only trainers at the Leagues who could beat the entire Battle Frontier would be Paul, Tobias, Sawyer, Alain, and Gladion. In Alan's case, he wouldn't even need Charizard whatsoever since Metagross and Bisharp would be enough to beat any of the Frontier Brains except Brandon. MC-X would steamroll every single Frontier Brain pretty easily, Brandon included.

But back to the League talk, even the three weaker Frontier Brains (Tucker, Noland without Articuno, and Greta) would still steamroll anyone in any of the Leagues aside from the aforementioned five trainers. Noland's Articuno was stronger than any Pokemon in the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn League, and that Articuno is at best only on-par with Lucy's Milotic or Brandon's Dusclops. Even before meeting Brandon, Ash beating the first six Frontier Brains already put him above every single trainer who ever competed in the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn Leagues, and put him above every single other League trainer in the entire anime aside from Tobias and Alain by an absurd landslide.

Based on the average League trainer skill: Kalos > Sinnoh > Battle Frontier >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Johto = Hoenn > Unova > Orange Islands > Kanto > Alola = JC > Don Tournaments.

TL;DR: Alola League isn't a real League. Ash winning the Battle Frontier is a more impressive accomplishment than had he won the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn/Unova/Alola Leagues. Battle Frontier is more impressive than every single League aside from Sinnoh and Kalos, and even then, only five total League trainers (4 from Sinnoh/Kalos, Gladion needing Z-Moves or a Legendary) could beat the Battle Frontier.

 

[CMButch]

I'd argue that the Alola League was most comparable to the JC or Don tournaments in terms of the types of battles there were. Alola League was just 1v1 for most of it, aside from a 2v2 in the semis, and 3v3 for the finals. Alola League had no requirements whatsoever just like the JC and Don tournaments so its an appropriate comparison IMO.

I disagree with that. JC and Don T were all 1 on 1, Alola league has at least 2 on 2 and 3 on 3 finale, like you said. Also, Alola league has that 151 people royale while Don T and JC didn't have. Agree that it doesn't have requirements like JC and Don T don't have, but it has 1 although small requirement which makes it different than Don T and JC as said: 151 battle royale. Alola league is like advanced Don T/JC.

As for the hierarachy of importance, I don't think its as simple as Leagues > BF > Side tournaments in terms of skill. I'd argue that the Battle Frontier is not only Ash's greatest victory in the anime, but that the Frontier Brains are stronger than almost every single trainer who competes in the Leagues. The only trainers at the Leagues who could beat the entire Battle Frontier would be Paul, Tobias, Sawyer, Alain, and Gladion. In Alan's case, he wouldn't even need Charizard whatsoever since Metagross and Bisharp would be enough to beat any of the Frontier Brains except Brandon. MC-X would steamroll every single Frontier Brain pretty easily, Brandon included.

I disagree with that completely. BF is amazing and all and important event, but not as important as KJHSUK leagues. In those leagues you need 8 badges in order to get into main event where you battle 64+ competitors who also got those 8 badges, when you win in those leagues you're crowned to be a champion and you get to fight E4 and real champion. In BF you only get to battle like 7 FB and that's it, if there was a tournament where 64 people battle in order to see who would challenge Brandon, then I'd say it's on same level or even better than leagues. Beating Brandon doesn't determine importance of event. Point of anime and leagues is for characters to become Pokemon Champions aka strongest of all aka Pokemon Masters.Beating Brandon doesn't mean one would become the strongest, Ash beat him, but did he become strongest of all or in that region (Kanto/Hoenn) ? No. That's why leagues are more important than BF.

But back to the League talk, even the three weaker Frontier Brains (Tucker, Noland without Articuno, and Greta) would still steamroll anyone in any of the Leagues aside from the aforementioned five trainers. Noland's Articuno was stronger than any Pokemon in the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn League, and that Articuno is at best only on-par with Lucy's Milotic or Brandon's Dusclops. Even before meeting Brandon, Ash beating the first six Frontier Brains already put him above every single trainer who ever competed in the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn Leagues, and put him above every single other League trainer in the entire anime aside from Tobias and Alain by an absurd landslide.

No , they wouldn't. Tucker was steamrolled by Swellow and Corphish. Greta would've also beaten by many trainers. IDK about Noland, but you're forgetting that Tobias also steamrolled everyone in Sinnoh, so how does that prove that BF> Sinnoh league in importance? You do understand literally every trainer can have legendary and enter the league, you do understand that every trainer beat 8 gym leaders and can be as strong as Ash or even stronger in respective series( like Tobias,Tyson etc). Just because Noland could streamroll those opponents, doesn't mean if Noland participated in one league that would he'd destroy anyone. Look at Tobias vs Ash where Darkrai is "unbeatable", you think there wouldn't be "Ash" character who would beat Noland's Articuno? There would be. This is same logic as Noland's Articuno would beat Tyson's Sceptile as of now, but if Tyson returns in one league, Tyson would have Mega and Z move since he progressed.

Based on the prestige of winning, based on the skill of the League trainers: Kalos = Sinnoh > Battle Frontier >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Johto = Hoenn > Unova > Orange Islands > Kanto > Alola = JC > Don Tournaments.

TL;DR: Alola League isn't a real League. Ash winning the Battle Frontier is a more impressive accomplishment than had he won the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn/Unova/Alola Leagues. Battle Frontier is more impressive than every single League aside from Sinnoh and Kalos, and even then, only five total League trainers (4 from Sinnoh/Kalos) could beat the Battle Frontier.

Umm, didn't you say BF > all leagues? Anyway wrong; KJHSUK leagues > BF. You do also understand just because certain characters are shown in respective leagues doesn't mean same leveled characters appear in those leagues. Lmao. When Kalos league happened, maybe 128 characters participated in Unova with Megas and Legendaries, you do know that?For example, Misty and Brock have Mega and they're gym leaders, so logically, trainers in order to win must have Mega or strong Pokemon to beat them.
Alola league is not real league, but it's not fake either. No. BF is as important or even per say little more than Alola League, but not against other leagues.
EDIT: BTW, I am not talking about Unova at certain point of time( when Ash battled) I am talking about Unova as a whole( and other major leagues) vs BF.So, based on your reality: Kalos and Sinnoh league were NEVER like Kanto league or Unova league?They probably were, they probably had times where weak to good trainer participated.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

What you seem to be undermining is that Ash striving to win 1 of these league conferences has been a key long term narrative of this show in and of itself meaning that him finally winning a league conference is meant to be the culmination of said 20+ year narrative; however, because the standard of competition is so blatantly inferior, this league seemingly being the conclusion is extremely unsatisfying to many long time fans, and I’m sure you should be able to understand that whether you ‘give a damn’ about this long term narrative or not. I’ll give you that this can still be considered a meaningful accomplishment for Ash in isolation (still not as impressive as conquering the battle frontier); however, that notion falls flat if this is supposed to be the accomplishment that all of Ash’s other league performances were building up to. The question of whether we’d be as satisfied with Ash winning this league as we would have with him winning any other conference can be translated to the following equivalent question:

If Ash wins this league, would this achievement serve as an acceptable conclusion to the series long narrative of Ash competing in and actively trying to win a league conference?

My answer would be a resounding NO.




It seems you’ve gravely misunderstood my definition of ‘legitimate league contender’. It simply means that the trainer in question satisfies certain quality standards which can be verified by achievements like having collected 8 of a region’s gym badges. When I said over 2/3rds of those top 16 trainers aren’t legitimate, I meant there’s no way in the distortion world that they’d be capable of qualifying for the league conferences of any other region; that’s all.


I don’t particularly care what you think of this show as long as you understand why many long term fans consider this league conference to be unsatisfying.


Some do and some don’t. I can make fairly strong cases that several writers did to varying degrees based on the specific battle episodes they wrote.


Believe what you will but with that mindset understand that you’re dismissing a key overarching narrative of this show.

Just to be clear the narrative surrounding and during individual fights does matter (and even in that sense I consider the Alola League to be well below par), but it should not be at the expense of compromising a 2 decade old overarching narrative which is what happened here (the real reason this league had no barriers to entry was because the writers wanted several individuals to participate but either didn’t want to focus on giving them arcs where they cleared said barriers or didn’t think them clearing it would be believable).

You're talking as if Alola is the end of the series or something... where are you coming from that any of this is supposed to be a conclusion for Ash's entire 20+ year journey? It's the conclusion of the Alola story, not the overall story.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Noland's Articuno was stronger than any Pokemon in the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn League, and that Articuno is at best only on-par with Lucy's Milotic or Brandon's Dusclops.

................................

Based on the average League trainer skill: Kalos > Sinnoh

What made you come to that conclusion?

 

[U.N. Owen]

i honestly don't find the lack of barriers to entry a problem since Alola doesn't have many trainers interested in the league in the first place. Barriers to entry are mostly a form of population control.

 

[Power Up]

There's still a severe underestimation of the importance of barrier entries and idk why. @VoltTacklingPika in the show, it quite clearly gives us the narrative importance of having those barrier entries. Since you've been talking about narrative stakes and everything, Alola doesn't have that, and the gym badges/barrier entries are one of the best narrative tools for the league. In your eyes, doesn't that make the Alola league narratively uncomparable?

@Genaller addressed pretty much everything else

Do you really care about our opinions or do you want to tell us that we’re wrong for considering it a real league?

Anyways, you can rant about how it’s not all day but it’s still a real league and is getting a lot of focus. For the first time, probably ever, I have hope that Ash will become champion. And that’s all that matters to me.

Yes, I want to tell you that you're wrong and explain why, and I want to tell you I'm right and explain why. That's kinda the point of debate. Course I care abt your opinions, I just care more abt proving them wrong

 

[Genaller]

You're talking as if Alola is the end of the series or something... where are you coming from that any of this is supposed to be a conclusion for Ash's entire 20+ year journey? It's the conclusion of the Alola story, not the overall story.

Please don’t strawman me. I said conclusion to the overrarching narrative of trying to win a league conference and not his journey as a whole (It’s been stated that winning a conference is only 1 step towards becoming a pokémon master) though based on recent information regarding the gen 8 anime, I’m not sure if Ash (or at least the main pokémon anime version of Ash) will be the protagonist for the next saga.

 

[U.N. Owen]

There's still a severe underestimation of the importance of barrier entries and idk why.

As much pomp goes into barriers to entry, I've started real competitions before. That's exactly what barriers to entry are used as, population control. A certain area can only have so many hotels and so much space at the venue. I've stopped seeing barriers to entry as anything more than population control for years.

 

[Power Up]

As much pomp goes into barriers to entry, I've started real competitions before. That's exactly what barriers to entry are used as, population control. A certain area can only have so many hotels and so much space at the venue. I've stopped seeing barriers to entry as anything more than population control for years.

Cool, that's not half of the narrative importance of barrier entries as shown by the anime itself.

Literally, the Pokemon anime spends most of its time on the barrier entries guys lol. I really can't believe people are flippantly ignoring the importance of barrier entries narratively

1. Ash literally spends most of his battle time and most of the time in regions preparing for, participating, and winning those gym badges to even just get in the league. That's a huge deal. This means many of the trainers spend a comparable amount of time as well. That has incredible narrative value for the league

2. Going through the gyms is no small feat. Ash himself loses in the gym battles.

3. The importance of the barrier entries and how much it means for people who have or have not passed them as has literally been shown in an episode. Trainers themselves beat themselves over not getting past those barrier entries. Ash himself understood the value of them

etc...

All throughout the regions, barrier entries have been established as an incredibly valuable narrative tool and showcase the ultimate value of the league and the strength of its participants. As Gen and I echoed, Alola is effectively spitting on every person who got past those barrier entries and long term fans who want Ash's league win to have the importance it so rightfully deserves. It's been 20+ yrs and I'm certainly not going to settle for it being so half-assed. And that's what the Alola " league " has been.

If all of Ash's previous incarnations had to face opponents that got past the barrier entries, Alola Ash is NOT getting a free pass because of how this region and league has been written.

 

[DatsRight]

Truthfully I feel like, if Ash DOES win this one, the Alola league being 'half assed' is in fact the only way they could get away with that, as it implies Ash has only defeated a primordial state roster and still isn't the highest of the highest yet, thus there's a reason to keep his journey going.

Also this league lacks an Elite Four and just condenses it all into one champion battle, I sort of get the feeling having to adapt that and add on ANOTHER battle arc was another obstacle to letting Ash win as well.

 

[Power Up]

Truthfully I feel like, if Ash DOES win this one, the Alola league being 'half assed' is in fact the only way they could get away with that, as it implies Ash has only defeated a primordial state roster and still isn't the highest of the highest yet, thus there's a reason to keep his journey going.

You do realize what could be coming in Gen 8 right?

I consider it to be a scary thought, but it could happen, and as I said, I'm not settling for this " league "

 

[Epicocity]

I see the two most-used arguments for the League are that it's realistic to what first-time competitions are and that it doesn't matter because the strongest of the strong are at the top.

Though, this isn't reality, of course. This is a story, in a world with a League. An overarching League. We can say this because ever since the League symbol was designed in Gen V, that symbol has been spammed on every gym, including the redesigned Cerulean Gym this very generation of the anime. In a roundabout way, what I'm saying is that this might be Kukui's first League, but he seems to have enacted none of the steps he was told he needed to enact to make it a League. He just slapped the title on it, got some people to referee (whose ability to ref is called into judgment), and called it a day.

Just 'cause you put syrup on something doesn't make it pancakes (or waffles).

Realism doesn't quite work here, because there's a larger universe...and a game that has an Elite Four and entry requirements that the anime purposely ignored (literally; they acknowledged and tossed them aside for their "everyone can participate" narrative).

Secondly, while the strongest of the strong might make the finals, it's also everything below that. James, a character that has no credentials and didn't defeat a single Pokemon pre-Top 16, made it all the way to the Top 8, a position that a great many skilled trainers have worked to get to and scratched and clawed their way to reach; one that Ash didn't even reach in his first League. Heck, he barely made Top 16 there, and even Gary lost before that round. Yet we have trainers who have done barely any work able to say "I reached the Top 8/16!"

That's...insulting to everyone else who managed to work that far.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

James is also quite a bit stronger than Ash was in Kanto, let's be honest here. Ash in Kanto is horrendously weak aside from the pokémon that were trained by Oak, and if you're being as strict there as you're being here it should be noted that Ash barely deserved any of his Kanto badges as none of the gym leaders was remotely competent at the job; most of them were weak, and he didn't even beat several of them fairly and yet they were so incompetent they still gave him the badge.

 

[ash&charizardfan]

James is also quite a bit stronger than Ash was in Kanto, let's be honest here. Ash in Kanto is horrendously weak aside from the pokémon that were trained by Oak, and if you're being as strict there as you're being here it should be noted that Ash barely deserved any of his Kanto badges as none of the gym leaders was remotely competent at the job; most of them were weak, and he didn't even beat several of them fairly and yet they were so incompetent they still gave him the badge.

Agreed except oak never trained any of his pokemon, they trained either by themselves or they were strong even without training. Ash was a weakling in kanto, but i think he desreved 3rd and 6th badge which he won on his own. His charizad was just way too strong for him to handle and i always suspect, the reason why bulbasaur didn't evolve was due to the same reason, he would be too strong for ash's calibre and that's the same reason why he released both haunter and primeape in kanto.

 

[CMButch]

James is also quite a bit stronger than Ash was in Kanto, let's be honest here. Ash in Kanto is horrendously weak aside from the pokémon that were trained by Oak, and if you're being as strict there as you're being here it should be noted that Ash barely deserved any of his Kanto badges as none of the gym leaders was remotely competent at the job; most of them were weak, and he didn't even beat several of them fairly and yet they were so incompetent they still gave him the badge.

Kanto Ash's Pokemon > James' Mareanie
James' Mareanie Z move > almost all Ash's Pokemon barring Charizard( who listens) and maybe Pikachu( explaining: if Z move hits Squirtle and Bulbasaur they're done, but if they dodge it Mareanie is done, but if Z move hits Charizard, Charizard would tank that or destroy that like Golisopod destroyed Primarina's Z move or tank it.
Kanto Ash's Pokemon with Z move > James' Mareanie with Z move.

 

[Power Up]

James is also quite a bit stronger than Ash was in Kanto, let's be honest here. Ash in Kanto is horrendously weak aside from the pokémon that were trained by Oak, and if you're being as strict there as you're being here it should be noted that Ash barely deserved any of his Kanto badges as none of the gym leaders was remotely competent at the job; most of them were weak, and he didn't even beat several of them fairly and yet they were so incompetent they still gave him the badge.

Why are you still stuck on this asinine point?

 

[345ash-greninja]

^^ Disobedient Charizard, that's an issue though, who decided to disobey Ash like a **** in the middle of a League battle. Not sure that will help much.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Why are you still stuck on this asinine point?

Because other people keep on bringing up badge entry requirements as some essential guarantee that participants are of certain quality as if it is some axiom and the only way to do that (not that anyone has convinced me of participant battle quality being essential for something being a real league, but we've already strayed off-topic anyway). Also, no idea what makes my point asinine when this entire topic was opened to bash on SM but whatever

 

[Power Up]

Because other people keep on bringing up badge entry requirements as some essential guarantee that participants are of certain quality as if it is some axiom and the only way to do that (not that anyone has convinced me of participant battle quality being essential for something being a real league, but we've already strayed off-topic anyway). Also, no idea what makes my point asinine when this entire topic was opened to bash on SM but whatever

Yeah, I've stated multiple times that exceptions to the rule don't break the rule and you seem to conveniently dodge/not recognize that line. Everything you've said isn't based on reality.

Your point is asinine because it's a non-argument.

It's bashing when I state that I believe SM's league isn't a real league up to the standards of others and back up my arguments, yet people spew out BS like XY Ash was a cardboard cut out without backing their arguments and get all " It's my opinion so it can't be wrong " when it easily can be when I press them on their objectively incorrect statements

The show has put essential narrative importance on entry requirements. That's a fact based on the events of the anime itself