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Do you enjoy the direction Pokemon Sun and Moon anime is moving in?

Hammad80

Active Member
Youtube is the absolute worst source of sampling opinions, like ever. Possibly even worse than Twitter or Facebook. Social media algorithms aren't built to give you a clear overview of the opinions. They just present you with the stuff that you are most likely to interact with based on everything they know about you. More clicks = more advertisement money. It's as simple as that. If Youtube sees you primarily watch videos hating on the pokémon anime, it's most likely going to suggest more videos like that. It's not going to suggest the videos promoting it, it's statistically unlikely you'd click on those. And the comment section is exactly the same. It puts the comments you're most likely to interact with on top. And usually those are extreme opinions, usually hating, because they gain the most backlash (and therefore interaction).
I sampled it on comment section. Your point of negative comments gaining more traction and being higher up is valid. But honestly, I haven’t heard much positive things about SM at all. With XY[Z], even YouTube comments were filled with positive things (till Ash lost the league and people lost their heads).
Or... the people complaining on the internet are a vocal minority and most people are actually fine with it but feel no need to really talk about it. I just had a look at MyAnimeList, and out of the 10000+ people who have added the series to their list and rated it there, well over 60% gave it a 7/10 or above. Which is of course just one site, but it's a far bigger sampling size than vocally disgruntled commenters on Reddit, YouTube or this forum.
Ratings on review sites like those are usually very generous. Compared the SM rating to other Pokémon seasons, and then tell me how it compares.
 

AznKei

Scary 16th note crossovers @ 190BPM! X_X
I sampled it on comment section. Your point of negative comments gaining more traction and being higher up is valid. But honestly, I haven’t heard much positive things about SM at all. With XY[Z], even YouTube comments were filled with positive things (till Ash lost the league and people lost their heads).
Sure, the Pokemon Showcases must be positive too, with people writing that they're boring beauty pageant shows, and that Pokemon Contests are much better because the Pokemons can actually fight. Oh wait, no one cares about the Pokemon Showcases, Serena & the Lemon siblings, only Ash.
 

Hammad80

Active Member
Sure, the Pokemon Showcases must be positive too, with people writing that they're boring beauty pageant shows, and that Pokemon Contests are much better because the Pokemons can actually fight. Oh wait, no one cares about the Pokemon Showcases, Serena & the Lemon siblings, only Ash.
I do agree negative opinions are much more likely to gain traction. However, I sampled the comments on episode preview videos with at least 100+ commons (usually around 250-300). Past the first few episodes where ash caught Pokémon’s and battled at trials, I never saw anyone state something like: “Man! Can’t wait for this next episode”.
Because all the episodes afterwards were fillers, uninteresting, or uninteresting fillers.

In previous series, where there would be gym battles, people could get hyped up to that moment, even if it was 3-4 episodes away. Here, nothing’s happening. They haven’t touched upon a league or Gladion (or anything interesting).

Yes, Serena’s “beauty pageants” were annoying, but they’re no different than mallow cooking or lana fishing or kiawe milking his cows or rotom/Sophocles being annoying in general. At least Serena’s episodes were under control; these episodes are being shown non-stop for 5-6 times in a row before something somewhat, possibly, maybe interesting MIGHT happen.
 

AznKei

Scary 16th note crossovers @ 190BPM! X_X
I do agree negative opinions are much more likely to gain traction. However, I sampled the comments on episode preview videos with at least 100+ commons (usually around 250-300). Past the first few episodes where ash caught Pokémon’s and battled at trials, I never saw anyone state something like: “Man! Can’t wait for this next episode”.
Because all the episodes afterwards were fillers, uninteresting, or uninteresting fillers.

In previous series, where there would be gym battles, people could get hyped up to that moment, even if it was 3-4 episodes away. Here, nothing’s happening. They haven’t touched upon a league or Gladion (or anything interesting).

Yes, Serena’s “beauty pageants” were annoying, but they’re no different than mallow cooking or lana fishing or kiawe milking his cows or rotom/Sophocles being annoying in general. At least Serena’s episodes were under control; these episodes are being shown non-stop for 5-6 times in a row before something somewhat, possibly, maybe interesting MIGHT happen.
And I suppose most of the negativities from SM on YouTube came from recurring users like Edman9953 and some XY fanboys where they post their long rants on most SM videos and kept replying?
 

Hammad80

Active Member
And I suppose most of the negativities from SM on YouTube came from recurring users like Edman9953 and some XY fanboys where they post their long rants on most SM videos and kept replying?
Like I said: I sampled videos showing episode previews. I don’t even watch episode rants/reviews unless I’m bored.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I do agree negative opinions are much more likely to gain traction. However, I sampled the comments on episode preview videos with at least 100+ commons (usually around 250-300). Past the first few episodes where ash caught Pokémon’s and battled at trials, I never saw anyone state something like: “Man! Can’t wait for this next episode”.
Because all the episodes afterwards were fillers, uninteresting, or uninteresting fillers.

In previous series, where there would be gym battles, people could get hyped up to that moment, even if it was 3-4 episodes away. Here, nothing’s happening. They haven’t touched upon a league or Gladion (or anything interesting).

Yes, Serena’s “beauty pageants” were annoying, but they’re no different than mallow cooking or lana fishing or kiawe milking his cows or rotom/Sophocles being annoying in general. At least Serena’s episodes were under control; these episodes are being shown non-stop for 5-6 times in a row before something somewhat, possibly, maybe interesting MIGHT happen.
Meh, I'd actually say, besides that lull during the Poipole arc, Ash's team are just as dynamic despite the smaller team. If anything I could argue such episodes are more gratifying because they usually pace them out in a unique way, while tons of even the development episodes in XY and other series relied on the same boring formula (eg. a Pokemon DEMing a new move or evolution during a generic Team Rocket attack). Even the ones that follow a similar premise are usually WAY more colourful in handling and do more credit to the protagonists' actual personalities (eg. Torracat learning Revenge in a tag team masked wrestling match, meaning the whole episode wasn't dull up until that point).

SM is at least taking the time to make us appreciate the characters in their own right, not just what they gain. It is maybe doing this TOO much, maybe WAY too much in fact, but I appreciate seeing it much at all in the anime. It's hard to be invested in how much a character accomplishes when they have the personality of cardboard, which is why I got more and more apathetic to Ash and his XY(Z) team, their growth was reverse proportionate to their characterisation and they still relied on formula and plot armour to hold even a basic story.
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
And I suppose most of the negativities from SM on YouTube came from recurring users like Edman9953 and some XY fanboys where they post their long rants on most SM videos and kept replying?
Don't get my started on those guys! They along with some VERY stupid people only provide one thing these days, head aches when they go off the deep end and you lose respect for them. Or a laugh when you voice against XY in ANY way, they go on cussing spree and act more immature than the series they hate! (One of them was psychotic enough to want Lillie to get killed by Silvally... that is how bad the hate has gotten!)

Meh, I'd actually say, besides that lull during the Poipole arc, Ash's team are just as dynamic despite the smaller team. If anything I could argue such episodes are more gratifying because they usually pace them out in a unique way, while tons of even the development episodes in XY and other series relied on the same boring formula (eg. a Pokemon DEMing a new move or evolution during a generic Team Rocket attack). Even the ones that follow a similar premise are usually WAY more colourful in handling and do more credit to the protagonists' actual personalities (eg. Torracat learning Revenge in a tag team masked wrestling match, meaning the whole episode wasn't dull up until that point).

SM is at least taking the time to make us appreciate the characters in their own right, not just what they gain. It is maybe doing this TOO much, maybe WAY too much in fact, but I appreciate seeing it much at all in the anime. It's hard to be invested in how much a character accomplishes when they have the personality of cardboard, which is why I got more and more apathetic to Ash and his XY(Z) team, their growth was reverse proportionate to their characterisation and they still relied on formula and plot armour to hold even a basic story.
The problem with the SOL formula of SM is that Ash is staying in one spot and most of the episodes focus around that one spot. That is why a lot of people feel that there isn't much growth and the filler episodes are random. (Though the travel segment in the previous series wasn't that much better in that regard IMO with some of the series having TR show up every episode, cause conflict and get sent blasting off. I take something new happening in most of the episodes over the same thing happening over and over again.)

There is also the fact that most of the main cast should have been cut down a couple pegs to side characters that appear on occasion since most of them don't exactly do much.

With the exception of Lillie who had her big character arc and most of her development done once it is over. (Yet the moments with her are among the best and is the main reason why the latest Rotom episode didn't cause my eyes to bleed!)
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
As said SM has overdone it, but I think getting that method of storytelling working at all is a good breakthrough, and now hopefully they can compromise it with the usual more goal focused premise to get the best of both worlds.

SM did at least show the anime can rectify SOME long running flaws, even if it backtracked on some other elements. They made the male companion a more integral character for example, even with only the same amount of limelight as usual. Ash doesn't need formula and goal focus to hold episodes, which at least makes the filler less the 'boring part' of the show. The COTD format has also mostly been dumped for a recurring cast that the audience can get attached to. SM I could argue has also shown way more value for character chemistries and supporting roles in many plots. It's really only the bloated cast that make for characters noticeably being stuck in the background, otherwise a lot of the cast get key roles per episode.

Really, SM relatively does okay with its cast. Ash, Kiawe, Lillie and even Rotomdex and Sophocles to some degree get reasonable focus and depth. That's three to five characters, just it looks bad when there's seven of them and the other two are among some of the worst handled companions of the show. Compare to say AG and DP which had three or four members but struggled past juggling two of them, with the rest being in the background most of the time. Ironically if SM used the same amount of characters it might have been the most perfectly balanced.
 
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The problem with the SOL formula of SM is that Ash is staying in one spot and most of the episodes focus around that one spot.
That's how Slice of Life works, though. The majority of Slice of Life shows take place in a fixed location and frequently re-use the same locales, because we're experiencing the everyday life of the characters.

So the problem isn't with the genre. The problem is that Slice of Life shows typically don't last three years, which is a long time to spend in one location.

The trick SM has missed is changing up its choice of home base every 50 episodes or so, so that people don't grow bored of being in the same place.
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
That's how Slice of Life works, though. The majority of Slice of Life shows take place in a fixed location and frequently re-use the same locales, because we're experiencing the everyday life of the characters.

So the problem isn't with the genre. The problem is that Slice of Life shows typically don't last three years, which is a long time to spend in one location.

The trick SM has missed is changing up its choice of home base every 50 episodes or so, so that people don't grow bored of being in the same place.
Which is something those who watched the Pokemon Anime from times pass have not gotten use to and still considers it alien or evil to them.

One thing I do have to say since I'm... obviously someone who likes SM, it has flaws and errors like what you said.

SM was a step in the right direction for the most part, breaking the stagnated formula we have seen five times over. (Things going back into XY would actually be a bad thing for this series due to how stale and shallow it became until the Team Flare Arc... and that was because it stopped focusing primarily on Ash and onto something else.)

But for a few things, like the bloat in main characters where some of them don't do much, staying in one place for that long and some of the slap stick we can do without going into the next generation. That is how the show evolves.
 
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ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
One thing I do have to say since I'm... obviously someone who likes SM, it has flaws and errors like what you said.

SM was a step in the right direction for the most part, breaking the stagnated formula we have seen five times over. (Things going back into XY would actually be a bad thing for this series due to how stale and shallow it became until the Team Flare Arc... and that was because it stopped focusing primarily on Ash and onto something else.)

But for a few things, like the bloat in main characters where some of them don't do much, staying in one place for that long and some of the slap stick we can do without going into the next generation. That is how the show evolves.
I dont mind about SM since it is trying to do something new in the anime so we should give it a try, but how was XY series stale, ash had a gym quest had best battles in the series history, even the pokegirl had her own active goal which made things more interesting, also different arcs least amount of fillers of all. I dont think XY series was stale at all, lol the most overrated and stale series has to be OS, especially the johto region, fillers after fillers, misty and brock doing nothing and becoming background characters, no progression of storylines between two gyms which keeps the story interesting, gary hardly appearing at all even though he was supposed to be his main rival.

SM has its flaws but i think it has given some ideas which could be carried forward in gen 8.
 
Stale in this context means something that isn't fresh, lacks novelty, etc. Regardless of the show's quality, Ash having a gym quest and the female companion having her own goal aren't novel ideas at all. Up until XYZ, which gave us Ash-Greninja and a lengthier focus on an evil team, XY didn't bring many new ideas to the show. It took what already existed and polished it.

Whether that's satisfying or not is up to the viewers, but I sympathise with those who don't want a return to how things were, because Pokemon needs new ideas to keep it relevant.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Stale in this context means something that isn't fresh, lacks novelty, etc. Regardless of the show's quality, Ash having a gym quest and the female companion having her own goal aren't novel ideas at all. Up until XYZ, which gave us Ash-Greninja and a lengthier focus on an evil team, XY didn't bring many new ideas to the show. It took what already existed and polished it.

Whether that's satisfying or not is up to the viewers, but I sympathise with those who don't want a return to how things were, because Pokemon needs new ideas to keep it relevant.
Care to tell me what ideas did OS brought except for boring fillers, XY series still had goodra arc, ME arc (which i admitted took the screentime from heroines), 4 huge ME specials which most of us should agree are best specials to come out. Even ash's gym battle with companion was developed as an short arc clemont going back to his city to prepare himself which was unlike the case with brock and cilan who joined the cast after facing ash in gym.

As for gen 8 i like the school setting its acts like a base, but this series fcuses on journey too much, maybe in future series he will travel to different areas more often with companons because he spend too much time in melemel island.
 
Care to tell me what ideas did OS brought except for boring fillers, XY series still had goodra arc, ME arc (which i admitted took the screentime from heroines), 4 huge ME specials which most of us should agree are best specials to come out. Even ash's gym battle with companion was developed as an short arc clemont going back to his city to prepare himself which was unlike the case with brock and cilan who joined the cast after facing ash in gym.
Firstly, OS is literally the foundation for the entire anime. Every season that followed, up until SM, used the format, pacing, and even a good majority of the story beats that OS established. I'm struggling to work out how you can dismiss it as "boring filler" when the anime would not have lasted this long without it.

Secondly, most of the things you mentioned were done well before XY. The idea that a Pokemon evolves to a powerful final form quickly, gets released, but comes back for an important fight? Hello there, Charizard. Special episodes running parallel to the main show? Pokemon Chronicles existed, you know. Clement's arc I'll give you, though I should point out Misty did something similar way back when.

Note that I'm not arguing about how good the execution was for any of these ideas. I'm pointing out that they aren't new.
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
I dont mind about SM since it is trying to do something new in the anime so we should give it a try, but how was XY series stale, ash had a gym quest had best battles in the series history, even the pokegirl had her own active goal which made things more interesting, also different arcs least amount of fillers of all. I dont think XY series was stale at all, lol the most overrated and stale series has to be OS, especially the johto region, fillers after fillers, misty and brock doing nothing and becoming background characters, no progression of storylines between two gyms which keeps the story interesting, gary hardly appearing at all even though he was supposed to be his main rival.

SM has its flaws but i think it has given some ideas which could be carried forward in gen 8.
XY gotten stale because of everything about Ash, being stripped of his personality and turned into a mary sue that everyone glorifies. While the series still uses the rinse and repeat formula that we seen enough already. Most of his pokemon besides Ash Greninja and Pikachu were underused in focus time. (Name anything Noivern has done to earn his evolution.)

I already got on with Serena and why her character arc was ANOTHER problem but let me put this into context.

I made a fan character that left home because she didn't want to be bound there. (This case, it was because she hated everything about the Orre Region "Play Colosseum and XD to have an idea why someone would hate growing up in that place." and wanted to fulfill her goals out of that dusty place.)

Kind of shows up out of nowhere for a main character. (Because the Orre thing was background information and I didn't have much plans with her until I was focusing on another characters arc.)

Has a goal that kind of changed over the course of her story. (She wants to be a news reporter and didn't take the job because she was too young. Her journey took her from Johto to Unova... where she became a movie star at PokeStar Studios. She still wants to be a News Reporter, but what she obtained with the show business is actually something nice to work for in the mean time.)

Doesn't battle often or even at all compared to the actual battlers of the cast. (The girl has quite a few pokemon to talk about. A Glaceon "Starter.", a Granbull, a Durant, a Heatmor and the reason she is able to pull the flight option so well ;an Alakazam with teleport for when the trainer or her friends get into a situation where fighting wouldn't go so well. Due to a growing conflict and a danger... that is very much something that exist in the real world. "Spoilers" She had a wake up call to get serious with battling when she discovered she and her pokemon are targets and knows using teleport to solve her problems isn't going to work forever... especially since shadow tag exist!)

In addition since I realized those pattern way late into making her arc....having boy problems. (A guy from Sinnoh that came to watch his father at the World Tournament. Those boy problems however... came after the girls break point in her carrier as a movie star and at no point does her goal revolve around that crush. "Quite the contrary it was that crush that helped the boy's family overcome MAJOR issues." To add to the boy problems, both her and the boy has some actual chemistry going once all is said and done.)

All of this are plot traits of a main character in a piece of canon poke media, who in the span of three seasons has went nowhere with her growth. Compared to a fan made side character, in a fanfic, that has those traits of her character/growth and generally has done much more!
 
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ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Firstly, OS is literally the foundation for the entire anime. Every season that followed, up until SM, used the format, pacing, and even a good majority of the story beats that OS established. I'm struggling to work out how you can dismiss it as "boring filler" when the anime would not have lasted this long without it.

Secondly, most of the things you mentioned were done well before XY. The idea that a Pokemon evolves to a powerful final form quickly, gets released, but comes back for an important fight? Hello there, Charizard. Special episodes running parallel to the main show? Pokemon Chronicles existed, you know. Clement's arc I'll give you, though I should point out Misty did something similar way back when.

Note that I'm not arguing about how good the execution was for any of these ideas. I'm pointing out that they aren't new.
I was talking about OS post OI region which makes up for 60% of OS timeline, OS didn't have subplots like villain arc, nor it had contests or performances which were added later on. Where was your celebi and golden pokeball arc. Fillers are fine when in limited amount like in DP and XY, but too many fillers will make the series boring which happened in OS.

Oh really when was arc like goodra executed before, goodra condition was totally different with charizard condition it was having a mental problem with fairy types, i dont recall charmander ever being afraid of water types. Pokemon chronicles were the episodes which consisted of old characters which showed what they were doing after leaving the show, whereas 4 ME specials consisted of a brand new character and TF who then joined the main show, how can you say that they were not new. Clement and korrina arcs were totally new which were never done before, misty never did something similar she only took part in whirl cup tournament, her only goal oriented thing thing she did in whole OS.

XY gotten stale because of everything about Ash, being stripped of his personality and turned into a mary sue that everyone glorifies. While the series still uses the rinse and repeat formula that we seen enough already. Most of his pokemon besides Ash Greninja and Pikachu were underused in focus time. (Name anything Noivern has done to earn his evolution.)

I already got on with Serena and why her character arc was ANOTHER problem but let me put this into context.
Again how was XY series revolving around ash when there was korrina with her ME arc, clemont leaving to train himself for his match, bonnie getting focus regularly unlike brock in OS. Most of his pokemon, the only pokemon in kalos that was underused was noivern and no one else and that was mainly due to eevee/sylveon and braixien and greninja since in XY writers were bothered in developing the main pokegirls pokemon unlike misty's, talonflame was used in 7 out of 8 gyms, hawlucha had both used in battles and had personality whereas goodra had an entire arc focussed on itself they were hardly underused. I can count out most of OS pokemon which were underused.

As for serena, her goal arc maybe short but atleast she wasn't irrelevant like misty was. No XY wasn't stale because of ash it had many new things and the execution was also good. The only stale period in XY series was between episode 10-20 which were fillers.
 

blizzardblaze

Comp. Battler Who loves The Anime
to add on to what ashcharizardfan said, how can you say ash in this region is a stiff board? he still has emotions and the characteristics he had before. yeah, ash may be admired by nearly everyone in this series, but it's a nice change from him being belittled by his companions. he was a role model to his friends that ultimately drove them to improve themselves.
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
to add on to what ashcharizardfan said, how can you say ash in this region is a stiff board? he still has emotions and the characteristics he had before. yeah, ash may be admired by nearly everyone in this series, but it's a nice change from him being belittled by his companions. he was a role model to his friends that ultimately drove them to improve themselves.
Because to have a main character connect with the audience, he needs to have flaws!

Reasons for Ash, his pokemon and his friends to bicker and make up in the end. Reasons to get angry at Ash and belittle him when he screws up or actually feel bad for him when he realizes he screws up.

Otherwise he is going to get boring as a power fantasy anyone can insert themselves in and forget about him when the next shiny thing comes along to fill the void. (Especially since he STILL lost the league.) SAO had that power fantasy problem and it was the reason why the abridged series was vastly superior when they made the main character into an actual character among other things. (Abridge Kirito is the best! Actual one... not at all good!)

In the real world, friends, family and couples fight each other like cats and dogs. But in the end, they bond with each other over things they do have in common and overcome the hard ships life has to bring to them.

That is the reason OS Ash was so loved, why May and Dawn were characters to route for. Even as silly as Ash is in SM, he acts like a believable kid WITH flaws, someone anyone in the real world can relate to when they are in similar situations or if a friend of theirs are in a similar situation. (Litten, Lillie and Poipole going through pretty real issues the viewers... kids! Might have to deal with or are dealing with.)
 

AznKei

Scary 16th note crossovers @ 190BPM! X_X
To me, stale includes the whole turn-based RPG concept from the mainstream games in which Ash goals are tied to, with the uniformed beat the obstacles in order to progress rinse and repeat. I got fed up about them after playing the original SM.

I want more than just replacing gyms into trials, Ride Pokemons replacing HMs. I want the franchise to explore genres that it haven't gone to before like sandbox and platform games and implement the original ideas into the anime. I don't even think the assist Pokemon uses from Pokken was implemented into the anime.
 
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Oh really when was arc like goodra executed before, goodra condition was totally different with charizard condition it was having a mental problem with fairy types, i dont recall charmander ever being afraid of water types. Pokemon chronicles were the episodes which consisted of old characters which showed what they were doing after leaving the show, whereas 4 ME specials consisted of a brand new character and TF who then joined the main show, how can you say that they were not new.
I explained this in the post you're replying to.

The idea that a Pokemon evolves to a powerful final form quickly, gets released, but comes back for an important fight? Hello there, Charizard. Special episodes running parallel to the main show? Pokemon Chronicles existed, you know
The differences between Goodra and Charizard are like the differences between cheese on toast and beans on toast. Yeah, they look and taste differently, but they're still just toppings on toast. No matter what topping you choose, you still need the toast.
 
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