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Do you enjoy the direction Pokemon Sun and Moon anime is moving in?

Jeal

Well-Known Member
Well, that's why I said roughly, yeah. May still had a bit post-GF, but it wasn't to the extent that, say, Serena's character arc followed.


You were saying they just slapped on the activities Serena tried to Showcases later, implying it was done in the moment, but Aria's mere presence in XY 21 shows that it was quite more planned out when it came to Serena's strengths and choosing a goal.
Lol, do you really think they planned to create a competition in which you bake poképuffs and calm down Rhyhorns from the beginning? It's obvious that the writers had no idea what to do, so they kept thinking until they decided to put everything on what she was good at a competition.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
This is a recurring issue with the non-battler goals, they are utterly lacking in substance. They work okay for an episode or two but as an arc they feel flimsy and don't work enough as a full display of the trainer and their Pokemon's talents.

The showcases were unfortunately the nearest to a proper one and even then they were an undeveloped mish mash of all the events Serena was conveniently good at, lacking a sound enough gimmick to tape it all together. The rivals and performances didn't really challenge the protagonist or force an agency out of them like the battle goals did either, to the point they made it a popularity contest to get around it. They worked as a placeholder goal for the protagonist to be motivated by and have internal development from doing but execution in setting it all in action was bland.

The SM goals....don't really even get a long term focus, which is a shame because some of them graduate from competitions to outright employment, there's way more opportunities to come out of that. It's especially glaring in Kiawe and Mallow's case because there's been PLENTY of COTD episodes focused on bringing Pokemon-themed farm or restaurant professions to life. Even just doing tweaked rehashes of some of those like some other plot themes in the show, and placing them in a way they tie together would have been SOMETHING of value.

Sophocles and Lana don't even really have goals outright, just hobbies and interests. This wouldn't be too bad if it came into their role a bit more often but usually it's a very secondary trait. Even Sophocles' gadgetry is put into limelight FAR less often than Clemont, who himself had a rather humble role.

Lillie and Sophocles admittedly aren't quite so bad from lack of goal focus because in their place they get a reasonable amount of personality focus, with most of their limelight placing reasonable introspective into them and showing how their characterisation can drive a story, while the other non-battlers tend to be too often struggling to hold stories and just end up getting bland scout points like macguffins or boosts that don't have any long term benefit to their role, or getting the scraps of battles the writers mechanically churn out like Team Rocket curb stomps. Basically giving up on the attempt at diverse agency and just trying to superficially show how this character can kick ass, and it's hard to be that invested in Serena or Mallow roughing up the show's jobbers for the billionth time when Ash is battling a colourful gallery of formidable professionals.
 
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mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
I understand what you're saying, but the point is the Master Class happened and we had a HUGE chunk of XY eps left which of course were either mainly focused on Ash or the villain arc. Serena had her moments like in the snowball scene in the 8th Gym and then the last eps leading to her departure, but between that her character wasn't focused on as we shifted focus to Ash or Bonnie during the Squishy/Zygarde stuff. The whole timeframe for a goal actually only went on for a little bit less than 2 years in XY59 to the Master class. Then of course she got the eps leading to her departure which of course was her finale.

The position of each Grand Festival was near at the climax of a saga, even in DP before of course Ash's leagues/final challenge finished the saga off. I mean look on the site and scan your eyes through the episode lists, you can see where the writers kept the girls into focus up to and before Ash got his final leagues/battles as usual in every saga.
the master class was also like 10 episodes before XY's climax (or like 3 if you count the ash greninja mastering arc as part of the climax)
 

MidnightMelody

Hopeful for Gen 8
I wonder if the classmates would have worked if the series was more plot focused but than again they hardly work in comedy. I guess some might work as rivals or random trainers or heck just keep them as they were made for in the games
 

Kintaro

Banned
the master class was also like 10 episodes before XY's climax (or like 3 if you count the ash greninja mastering arc as part of the climax)

Master Class was XY113. XY ended with 142 episodes. Her main goal ended 30 episodes before the end of XY.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Master Class was XY113. XY ended with 142 episodes. Her main goal ended 30 episodes before the end of XY.
He said before the climax, which started a mere 12 episodes after the Master Class.

But even so, that's a goal, not her development, which wasn't abandoned until XYZ 45. Not only was she crucial to Ash's development, but the Flare arc largely pushed each off the main characters' developments, including Serena's. Perhaps her role wasn't as central, but we can't pretend that she didn't put into practice what she'd learned about being a Kalos Queen during those very episodes. That's why it's unfair to say the Master Class marked the end of her development in the way that, say, the Grand Festival marked the end of Dawn's. Considering she also had the lion's share of episodes devoted to her from late XY through those first 20 episodes of XYZ, it also made sense they scaled back to focus on Ash, who'd barely been touched outside of 2-3 episodes in XYZ at that point.
 

Kintaro

Banned
Yes, true. Don't forget they also shifted focus to Bonnie due to the Zygarde connection. But they always focus on the main girl again during the last eps of a saga or when they're about to leave too.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
He said before the climax, which started a mere 12 episodes after the Master Class.

But even so, that's a goal, not her development, which wasn't abandoned until XYZ 45. Not only was she crucial to Ash's development, but the Flare arc largely pushed each off the main characters' developments, including Serena's. Perhaps her role wasn't as central, but we can't pretend that she didn't put into practice what she'd learned about being a Kalos Queen during those very episodes. That's why it's unfair to say the Master Class marked the end of her development in the way that, say, the Grand Festival marked the end of Dawn's. Considering she also had the lion's share of episodes devoted to her from late XY through those first 20 episodes of XYZ, it also made sense they scaled back to focus on Ash, who'd barely been touched outside of 2-3 episodes in XYZ at that point.
you mean xyz45, then yes, but she could've easily been taken out of the flare arc and barely anything would've changed, mairin would've gone with sycamore anyways
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
you mean xyz45, then yes, but she could've easily been taken out of the flare arc and barely anything would've changed, mairin would've gone with sycamore anyways
Sure, but she still showcased her own development thanks to the involvement she did have. Though, all things considered, she did keep Mairin and Bonnie safe during the final assault, so you can't completely remove her, either.

My point is less about their specific role in the arc so much as how the arc pushed each of their developments and gave them a role in the arc, itself.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I don't think Serena really fit the series' format. It was based on an action formula and she wasn't an action based character, and she didn't really have a lot of chemistry with the other characters in that series, so she couldn't really stand out unless the whole story was centred around her. It's not just about having a good character but having one that compliments the universe they're surrounded in.

Lillie by comparison is in a far more laid back show that can just focus primarily on her personality, so her not being the most action based character isn't as frequently a blotch on storytelling, and she has a more workable amount of characters and scenarios she works well as a supporting character against. The show doesn't have to keep stopping in its tracks and dumbing everything else down just so she can work.
 

Kintaro

Banned
The main girl in XY shifted off between Bonnie and Serena. Bonnie got quite a bit of focus and she wasn't treated like Max was who was just Brock 2.0, but more of a lead with focus in eps/fillers at the start and then the Squishy finale. Pretty impressive for a kid character with no real pokemon.

Had Max been given more to do after early Hoenn he probably would have been better received. You can pretty much tell the writers gave Max quite a bit of eps and the Jirachi movie in the first year of Hoenn, but then his screentime was severely reduced for the rest of the saga once the writers realized he wasn't popular.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
The main girl in XY shifted off between Bonnie and Serena. Bonnie got quite a bit of focus and she wasn't treated like Max was who was just Brock 2.0, but more of a lead with focus in eps/fillers at the start and then the Squishy finale. Pretty impressive for a kid character with no real pokemon.

Had Max been given more to do after early Hoenn he probably would have been better received. You can pretty much tell the writers gave Max quite a bit of eps and the Jirachi movie in the first year of Hoenn, but then his screentime was severely reduced for the rest of the saga once the writers realized he wasn't popular.

Giving her the regional Pikaclone really helped in this capacity. Had Max been given a Plusle or a Minun he might not have had as less focus as he did. I think at the time they were just figuring out how to handle a younger sibling and messed up -- thus they did it right on opportunity 2.0 aka Bonnie
 

Kintaro

Banned
Giving her the regional Pikaclone really helped in this capacity. Had Max been given a Plusle or a Minun he might not have had as less focus as he did. I think at the time they were just figuring out how to handle a younger sibling and messed up -- thus they did it right on opportunity 2.0 aka Bonnie

They should have focused on Max more with his connection with psychic pokemon like Jirachi and Ralts. Maybe even move that Ralts ep to early Hoenn and have it tag along with him for awhile.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
They should have focused on Max more with his connection with psychic pokemon like Jirachi and Ralts. Maybe even move that Ralts ep to early Hoenn and have it tag along with him for awhile.
Yeah they were just totally against the concept of Max getting any Pokémon at all back then lol.. they did much better with Bonnie
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
The main girl in XY shifted off between Bonnie and Serena. Bonnie got quite a bit of focus and she wasn't treated like Max was who was just Brock 2.0, but more of a lead with focus in eps/fillers at the start and then the Squishy finale. Pretty impressive for a kid character with no real pokemon.

Had Max been given more to do after early Hoenn he probably would have been better received. You can pretty much tell the writers gave Max quite a bit of eps and the Jirachi movie in the first year of Hoenn, but then his screentime was severely reduced for the rest of the saga once the writers realized he wasn't popular.

The only time bonnie looked like a main pokegirl in XY was in early 35 episodes, once summer camp arc started serena started getting regular focus, and bonnie was shafted from then on, she was still better than max and even clemont though. Even in XYZ series she wasn't doing much other than singing to squishy and keeping it in the bagpack.

Giving her the regional Pikaclone really helped in this capacity. Had Max been given a Plusle or a Minun he might not have had as less focus as he did. I think at the time they were just figuring out how to handle a younger sibling and messed up -- thus they did it right on opportunity 2.0 aka Bonnie

Its not like that pikaclone did anything other than being in bagpack, probably the worst walking pokemon since togwpi, both piplup and axew were much better in this regard, the only thing with dedenne was that it was similar in design to pikachu which made it markatable.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
No, she was a part of it not the whole focus, zygarde/squishy the whole XYZ arc focussed on many characters, TF including lysandre, ash greninja, ash, alain, mairin. Bonnie major accomplishment in the climax was her song magically which calmed down the squishy after it was controlled by team flare(even that was criticized by many people).
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
And she killed Lysandre. She's basically the main focus outside of Ash/Alan.

She didn't kiled lysandre, it was perfect zygarde who destroyed it and that only happened when the other core after watching humans trying to defend the world decided to trust them, bonnie's major task with role was singing the song to squishy, stop overrating her.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
She didn't kiled lysandre, it was perfect zygarde who destroyed it and that only happened when the other core after watching humans trying to defend the world decided to trust them, bonnie's major task with role was singing the song to squishy, stop overrating her.
"Squishy!!! Do it!!!!!!"
 
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