Do you enjoy the direction Pokemon Sun and Moon anime is moving in?

[ash&charizardfan]

"Squishy!!! Do it!!!!!!"

Still say had that other core not decided to collaborate with the first core they wouldn't have become perfect form and all the characters were responsible for it not just bonnie, probably the only main villain arc which gave focus to multiple characters instead of just main characters like in team galactic arc. People overhype bonnie, even in TF battle all she did was trying to run away with squishy and it was ash and ganga who were trying to fight the grunts.

 

[DatsRight]

"Squishy!!! Do it!!!!!!"

Calling an attack that the Pokemon was almost certainly gonna do in the first place isn't really the most amazing of involvement.

That's kinda the recurring problem with many companions, even when they get to do something, it isn't very intuitive. Bonnie's heightened role of bonding with Squishy was mostly related to singing that damn song over and over. Even Ash and Lillie's brief screentime with Nebby amounted to more depth, and that's not a compliment.

I don't really call a character promoted if it's just more times they get to beat up Team Rocket at their weakest, or have their running gag repeated, or catch/evolve a Pokemon only to almost never use or bond with it afterwards. It has to show something unique this character can contribute.

 

[Kintaro]

Bonnie was literally involved with the whole Zygarde climax singing to calm it down and commanding it to attack. I don't know why people are trying to spin this otherwise. Bonnie had a great role in the finale.

 

[DatsRight]

Bonnie was literally involved with the whole Zygarde climax singing to calm it down and commanding it to attack. I don't know why people are trying to spin this otherwise. Bonnie had a great role in the finale.

But that one time doesn't equate to a good role the entire series. It's like if in DP, Brock's flirting gag had one time it came in useful against Hunter J or something. Sure that one time likely would have been.....something, but it doesn't take back the fact the rest of his role was just a repetitive running gag, and even his one big moment amounted to that.

 

[Kintaro]

She got focus early on in XY with various fillers, a dynamic with Clemont, etc....about as much as they could do with an underage kid character with no real pokemon. She also had funny scenes in eps that weren't about her. I mean they kept her relevant and at times she got more focus than Serena did especially in early and late XY.

 

[LilligantLewis]

But that one time doesn't equate to a good role the entire series. It's like if in DP, Brock's flirting gag had one time it came in useful against Hunter J or something. Sure that one time likely would have been.....something, but it doesn't take back the fact the rest of his role was just a repetitive running gag, and even his one big moment amounted to that.

I don't think you understand that the Espurr, Flabébé, Lapras, and Tyrantrum episodes were all building up to Squishy: they were showing us how Bonnie can be a good caretaker of Pokémon and how much of a hard time she has saying goodbye, which showed her character growth in the end when she was stronger/braver enough to be ok with saying goodbye to Squishy and showed her understanding of the gravity of the situation. How is not good character development for someone who's only the 4th most important character? How did the Zygarde storyline and Bonnie's caretaking of Pokémon come out of nowhere? Furthermore, this convo was comparing her to Max, how is Max better?

 

[DatsRight]

I was just arguing against the "calling one finisher attack in the Flare arc" example specifically. On a whole throughout the series, yeah she did do more than Max, though that's relatively easy to improve against. To balance it out they also amped up the "annoying brat" qualities however, since Max seemed to at least get treated like an annoying tagalong in many instances, while Bonnie was often treated as 'cute' and got away with murder.

 

[LilligantLewis]

I was just arguing against the "calling one finisher attack in the Flare arc" example specifically. On a whole throughout the series, yeah she did do more than Max, though that's relatively easy to improve against. To balance it out they also amped up the annoying qualities however, since Max seemed to at least get treated like an annoying tagalong in many instances, while Bonnie was often treated as 'cute' and got away with murder.

How does getting away with murder make her annoying?

 

[DatsRight]

How does getting away with murder make her annoying?

Because a character that is acts obnoxious and causes problems and gets no comeuppance over it gets insufferable after a while. Max was a smarmy brat but at least was the butt monkey for it.

Their first 'adventure' with him, May punched him for playing up, making clear she wouldn't stand for his crap. Clemont had no backbone against Bonnie, I just felt sorry for him since Bonnie never learned to behave herself and usually only he suffered consequences for it.

 

[ash&charizardfan]

She got focus early on in XY with various fillers, a dynamic with Clemont, etc....about as much as they could do with an underage kid character with no real pokemon. She also had funny scenes in eps that weren't about her. I mean they kept her relevant and at times she got more focus than Serena did especially in early and late XY.

No doubt she was much better than both max and clemont, but she didn't got more focus than serena in late XY series as well, all she did was singing a song to calm down squishy zygarde which was poor writing other than that she was inactive and others characters did all the work, the complete zygarde also wasn't her doing it was everyone's role. As for dynamic with clemont, i find may and max dynamic much better than lemon siblings especially after XYZ episode 21, she tried all the time to find a girl for his brother but when a girl decided to partner with him she played as a spoilsport in it because he wasn't looking at her making her a hypocrite, and at the end of the episode she again started that annoying thing about finding a girl fr her brother ruining all the bond shown in that episode. That one episode ruined bonnie's character to some extent.

Because a character that is acts obnoxious and causes problems and gets no comeuppance over it gets insufferable after a while. Max was a smarmy brat but at least was the butt monkey for it.

Their first 'adventure' with him, May punching him for playing up, making clear she was sick of his crap. Clemont had no backbone against Bonnie, I just felt sorry for him since Bonnie never learned to behave herself.

Max was annoying in the first season trying to be oversmart with bth ash and may but as the series progressed he definitely mild down showing more appreciation to both of them. He definitely grew a lot throughout the AG.

 

[LilligantLewis]

Because a character that is acts obnoxious and causes problems and gets no comeuppance over it gets insufferable after a while. Max was a smarmy brat but at least was the butt monkey for it.

Their first 'adventure' with him, May punching him for playing up, making clear she wouldn't stand for his crap. Clemont had no backbone against Bonnie, I just felt sorry for him since Bonnie never learned to behave herself.

Okay, I mean, you just can't be pleased lol.

 

[FlygontheRavager]

"Squishy!!! Do it!!!!!!"

But...wasn’t she just cheering Squishy on there?

 

[LilligantLewis]

But...wasn’t she just cheering Squishy on there?

No, he didn't do it until she told him to.

 

[DatsRight]

Okay, I mean, you just can't be pleased lol.

I have characters I think were handled okay. Bonnie just isn't one of them. She was mediocre. Being better than one of the most infamous fourth wheels on the show doesn't change that.

 

[ash&charizardfan]

I have characters I think were handled okay. Bonnie just isn't one of them. She was mediocre. Being better than one of the most infamous fourth wheels on the show doesn't change that.

Technically she was a third wheel, clemont was a fourth wheel she was handled way better than either third wheels like bock and cilan, and ahead of lana, mallow and johto misty but definitely below the other pokegirls and ash and probably kiawe.

 

[DatsRight]

Technically she was a third wheel, clemont was a fourth wheel she was handled way better than either third wheels like bock and cilan, and ahead of lana, mallow and johto misty but definitely below the other pokegirls and ash and probably kiawe.

Clemont was okay early on, I liked he had a more diverse role in the team due to the 'inventor'/smart guy role rather than just battling (which he could still do better than any other XY protagonist besides Ash). And as mentioned it was easy to feel bad for Clemont since he was the team's butt monkey while everyone else had plot armour. Stuff like the girls pawning him off to that COTD princess and then forgetting about him. Even the Cilan special, despite people moaning it wasn't Serena, was pretty decent.

At the very least I think Clemont was better at comic relief than Bonnie. Even his dub actor sounded hilarious.

 

[LilligantLewis]

I would like to point out that @DatsRight just put the words Cilan, Serena, and moaning in the same sentence.

 

[Kintaro]

Because a character that is acts obnoxious and causes problems and gets no comeuppance over it gets insufferable after a while. Max was a smarmy brat but at least was the butt monkey for it.

Their first 'adventure' with him, May punched him for playing up, making clear she wouldn't stand for his crap. Clemont had no backbone against Bonnie, I just felt sorry for him since Bonnie never learned to behave herself and usually only he suffered consequences for it.

Bonnie never acted that way, she was the sweet little sister who was protective of her brother, and then when Clemont did get a girl who liked him (that Buneary trainer), she got jealous and didn't understand because she was a kid. Clemont was the meek inventor character so of course Bonnie is more dynamic. Bonnie's personality was basically written as a main girl rather than supporting character.

Max being a smart alec at first and making fun of Ash and May was part of his character, but as said he stopped doing that after the early/mid Hoenn era. After Ash beat his father I don't think he ever threw a tantrum over Ash ever again.

 

[AznKei]

I would like to point out that @DatsRight just put the words Cilan, Serena, and moaning in the same sentence.

Yeah, well people expectations are different too. I remembered when I wrote that Serena, and later Bonnie, fought TRio in the 2nd Goomy episode, was the best part of episode to me, because at least they got to do something on their own, than usual Ash screentime hogging. For him, it's not a good at all because it's a typical TRio curbstomp.

 

[ash&charizardfan]

Yeah, well people expectations are different too. I remembered when I wrote that Serena, and later Bonnie, fought TRio in the 2nd Goomy episode, was the best part of episode to me, because at least they got to do something on their own. For him, it's not a good at all because it's a typical TRio curbstomp.

But the thing is it wasn't a TR curbstomp if anything TR were having a upperhand in that match.