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Do you enjoy the direction Pokemon Sun and Moon anime is moving in?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by Ariki, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. MidnightMelody

    MidnightMelody Hopeful for Gen 8

    Oh I agree tbh the last group I actually liked was the Sinnoh group. Sure Brock might have not had a real goal like Ash or Dawn (granted it was the first and only time we got a main star besides Ash so someone was going to be lacking) but they did have a good flow. Have yet to see that again imo

    TBH that is why me and a lot of friends watch shows. I only watched TVD because of the hot guys and could care less about the acting
     
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  2. Lord Starfish

    Lord Starfish Fond of owls

    I mean, that's basically Jojo's Bizarre Adventure you're describing there; Very little actual animation, lots of extremely stylized imagery. Or, okay, the currently ongoing latest installment, Golden Wind, has stepped up the actual animation significantly, but historically it has been a series that's gotten by pretty much entirely on striking still frames with limited movement... and yet it's still seen enough success to be in its fifth season and I know quite a few people who just straight-up adore the series. It might not be your preferred approach... nor is it mine, to be fair, but it's not like shows with limited animation can't still be good.
     
    Genaller and LilligantLewis like this.
  3. I'm not saying they can't be good.

    In a case like Jojo's, I can understand it, because it's visual style is incredibly distinct and the character designs are striking and meaningful. Even without a lot of animation, any given scene is still interesting to look at because of those designs, and the dynamic poses that the characters usually take up as well. In fact, this may be a rare example where simplifying the designs for the sake of better animation would be detrimental to the experience.

    So it's not an absolute, if there's no good animation this show is worthless type thing. Perhaps my earlier statement comes across as more sweeping than intended, but believe me, I know there are exceptions to the rule.

    It's just that, Pokemon wasn't one of those exceptions for me. Outside of battles, there was very little in the show that was visually stimulating. The character designs don't communicate a lot of information about them, there's very little in the way of dynamic posing, there're barely any interestingly shot scenes, and they use generic, albeit at least pretty, backgrounds. Sun and Moon doesn't necessarily improve on all those things, but it adds character animation to the mix which makes a huge difference to the visual experience.

    Ultimately, it's a give and take. For some shows, I might prefer more focus on the art because the details might be important or the art is just really unique. But since most shows don't really have that, I tend to value animation more.
     
    FlygontheRavager likes this.
  4. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    Yeah but the problem was that you didn't say that it was just you yourself who liked it better, you went about it saying "I don't understand how an improvement in animation can turn people off an animated product" which came off as rude and came across that everybody should agree with you and that's why people sounded pissed off when replying to you. Furthermore, when people just tried to explain it to you, rather than saying you now understand how the improvement in animation turned people off an animated product, you started talking about how it's a give and take and didn't even acknowledge that you're stepping back from your earlier words about not understanding those people.
     
    Genaller, Xuxuba and JC317 like this.
  5. ...okay, let's break this down.

    Firstly, it's obvious from original statement that I was speaking for myself. I figured the words "I don't understand" were clear enough. Do I need to add "For me in my opinion personally" next time?

    Secondly, I don't see anything rude about saying I don't understand something. Taking any offence to that says more about you than it does me.

    Nor do I see how it came across as me expecting everyone to agree. You're making that up.

    Thirdly, I got two immediate replies which I haven't responded to, but they were far from "pissed off" and actually gave me something to think about.

    The only reply that sounded remotely annoyed was Genaller's, but I've responded to them already.

    Finally, my reply above actually was me acknowledging another's point of view. I readily admitted my earlier statement may have been too broad, AND that the poster used a good example, because his response helped me understand better. I then clarified my stance in relation to Pokemon specifically. I'm not sure what the problem is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  6. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    The most visually stimulating thing in the shows are the battles and SM hasn't brought that on the table. For every good battle in SM, there are 5 others in XY/XYZ that are better

    I'll admit character animation in SM has been increased substantially, but the artistic detail has suffered from such a move.
     
  7. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    you said "turn people off" so clearly talking about more than yourself lol. and btw as to your second point I'm not even one of the people nor was I offended so not sure why ad hominem came into it haha
     
    Genaller likes this.
  8. Genaller

    Genaller Mein Kaiser

    That’s good to read though it makes what you say next all the more baffling.

    Dude why are you being extreme? Literally no 1 said that they “don’t care” about the animation. The actual position is that good animation quality on its own isn’t sufficient for (many) viewers to have a positive opinion of the overall aesthetic quality of the show when they think the art style is lacking.

    A better analogy (which maybe was what you actually meant) would be something like appearance vs body language specifically, but I still don’t think it’s fair to compare the appearance of a person to the artstyle of a full anime in terms of skill required to produce the final shown product.

    Also when criticizing the artstyle, a key issue is that it’s overly simplistic which would never be an issue for a real person since by definition the ‘artstyle’ in real life is extremely ‘detailed’ by default.

    I don’t necessarily inherently disagree with that; however...
    Again you’re being extreme. The position that some people actually have is that the perceived increase in animation quality from XY to SM for them does not compensate for the perceived decrease in artstyle quality from XY to SM. Again there’s only so much that the fluidity of transitioning between images can do for someone’s overall impression of the aesthetic quality of the series when they think the images themselves look atrocious; it works both ways.



    That’s fine; the point I was trying to make was independent of whether you do.

    Testimony from a reliable source is accepted as a valid form of evidence. Unless you can give testimony concerning general fan perception from a person who’s more credible than @Dephender, your testimony doesn’t have the same value (especially over here where Dephender is widely acknowledged as the most informed member).

    It’s good that you know that though: “All I'll say is that while some may have been put off by the re-design, there were others who were attracted by it” made it seem like you were trying to imply that the divisions were more even, so I just wanted to make it clear that the general consensus isn’t on the side of people that “were attracted by it.” Whether that has any meaningful value to this discussion is a different matter, but the reason I brought it up was because you felt the need to make that last statement in the first place.

    Bascially yeah. Both artstyle and animation are important to the overall visual quality of the product, so it’s understandable why a trade-off for 1 over the other would result in controversy.

    I’m not sure where you’re getting this interpretation from (especially when I previously said that it’s fine if you value the animation quality over the artstyle), but what I said regarding that was to distinguish the truth from what the default interpretation of your last statement would be to most readers (that the 2 sides of this issue would be closer to evenly distributed).

    EDIT:
    That brings us to another issue which is that battles have become far less of a priority in SM than they were in previous series to the point where the best animated work occurs in slice of life scenes instead of battle scenes. This distribution of animation focus is also an aspect for why a large section of viewers would be “turned off” by the current product.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  9. The position extends beyond what you can see on Serebii. These are my general feelings on the matter, that earlier posts provoked.

    No, I meant what I put. For me, animation is to anime what acting is to film. They're integral parts of the medium and not something that can be easily compromised for the sake of something else - in this case, how attractive the "actors" are.

    A statement which you misinterpreted as me implying the sides were equal. I think my statement was vague enough to not imply that at all; only that an unquantifiable number of people find the show attractive. This was in response to someone claiming SM's art style put people off, and I wanted to point that this wasn't the case for everyone. That's all.

    All of which was unnecessary because that wasn't the point I was making in the first place. Why is there a need to distinguish the "truth" when it was already apparent that I was explaining my own personal view on the matter? Not to mention how presumptuous it is to believe that your interpretation of my statement would be the "default interpretation" for others.
     
  10. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    While XY was airing, did you strongly dislike it because of its animation? The SM anime has better animation but I'm not sure how XY's could be called "compromised"
     
    Genaller likes this.
  11. A lack of character animation was a reason, but it's not the only one.

    I don't strongly dislike XY, for the record.

    Also, I wasn't referring to XY specially when I talked about compromise earlier. It was a general statement. FWIW, prioritising battle animation over character animation is a form of compromise, but it wasn't like I couldn't appreciate what was there.
     
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  12. Genaller

    Genaller Mein Kaiser

    Yeah then I can’t empathize with you here. The artstyle is also an ‘integral’ part of the product and you not realizing that explains your bewilderment at why many people aren’t fans of the trade-off.



    Yeah I’m not fan of intentionally vague statements. If you don’t want such responses then you need to be more clear about what you’re actually claiming. For example if you said something more akin to “there exist fans that like SM’s art style”, then that would’ve been fine with me.


    Your personal view regarding the animation - art style trade-off was never what I had an issue with. I have an issue with how you’re supposedly unable to understand why other people were turned off by said trade-off. Also I prefer being rigorous, and it’s better to be safe than sorry.

    Yeah because it’s totally obvious that you meant only a minority of people “were attracted by it” based on the precise wording you used; if you wanna spin it that way, then be my guest mate :^).
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  13. Your suggestion is just as vague as what I wrote.

    Whether you think it was obvious or not does not justify assuming that others will interpret my words the same you do.
     
  14. Epicocity

    Epicocity Well-Known Member

    Can I ask, why does character animation matter so much? I mean, aren't the kinetic, battle moments that would actually benefit from better animation better than just over-emoting through animation? It's something I never understood of why it's so praised overall since I, personally, can get an emotional moment without character animation being super-high level.

    Also, if I can ask a second question, did you criticize XY's "poor animation" when it was running, or just when SM came along? Because I always found it funny how most people had no problem with XY's animation and outright praised it, but the second SM came along, it's like its animation was something from the 90s to them.
     
    Genaller, SH65 and LilligantLewis like this.
  15. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    It wasn't bad individually (though I remember thinking Ash's design and animation exacerbated his generic personality that series) though compared to SM I do think it has far less life. It was pretty much just standard kids anime animation, only more higher budget from the previous series.
     
  16. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    yeah that's kind of what I was getting at when I mentioned "while it was airing"
     
  17. As I see it, there are two levels to this. On a basic level, I get bored when there's not enough movement on screen. Not every scene requires movement, and not every emotion needs to be exaggerated, but there's a raw entertainment factor to it. On a deeper level, there is meaning in movement and body language. You can communicate emotions and state of mind without words, and you can communicate one thing with words and another thing with body language simultaneously.

    The balance will depend on the type of show. For Sun and Moon specifically, it requires strong character animation because it's a slapstick, slice of life comedy. The exaggeration is part of the humour, and the everyday life is more prominent - it's what you're going to see on screen the most. With that in mind, I think it makes more sense to make those moments look great than it does to focus on a less prominent part of the show, such as battles. Just as it made sense for XY to be have been the other way around. Different priorities, but the same intention: to make the important aspects of the show look as good as they can be.

    You can rest assured that at no point did I think XY had "poor animation". SM is more in line with my tastes, but I'm not going to use that as a reason to retrospectively claim XY wasn't a good looking show, either.
     
  18. Genaller

    Genaller Mein Kaiser

    You’re right; I should have worded it more clearly. There exists a minor subset of Pokémon anime fans that like the SM art style over the art style of previous sagas would be the most accurate wording though this doesn’t say much since there are exceptions to almost every norm.

    EDIT: So I checked the post of the person you were replying to when you made that comment and they said: “Had the anime kept the XY art I'm sure most would have stayed with it.” The fact that they said most and not all indicates that they already knew that there exists a minor subsection of Pokémon anime fans that were “attracted by it”. With this in mind why would you respond with that statement of yours if you accepted this view? It’s because you wanted to try conveying that the opinion distribution on the matter was closer to even than what that member was insinuating, and if not, then you were being completely redundant.

    You want a justification? Okay sure I can give you that. Your statement: “All I'll say is that while some may have been put off by the re-design, there were others who were attracted by it”. This is a vague statement that covers almost the entire spectrum of possibilities with respect to the actual percentage of viewers on each side (so 1% - 99% and 99% - 1% with everything in between are compatible with your wording). The expected reaction to a statement that yields such a distribution is to interpret that the expected value would be somewhere close to the mean (on a related note most people generally subconsciously interpret most perceived distributions as normal unless being given evidence for a different distribution type), therefore yes I can claim with high confidence that the aggregate reader interpreted your words to mean that there was a roughly even distribution between both sides. Like I already said; if you don’t want such misinterpretations in the future, then you need to be more clear about what exactly you’re claiming.

    You can’t empathize with why the majority of fans weren’t pleased with the art style - animation trade-off and I can’t empathize with your anime - film analogy, so I don’t see any further avenue for constructive discussion on this matter.

    I’ve already explained to you why said majority are justified in taking issue with the art style - animation trade-off; if you still can’t understand that, then there’s nothing more I can say to you on the matter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
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  19. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Neutral force of Meh

    tbh, in terms of the artstyle vs animation debates, there are two other factors that often get ignored: storyboarding and character design, I mean, I often hear things like "everyone but ash and the TRio look great, why?", which is understandable, and why I hope that if they keep the current artstyle, that they try to redesign at least ash (seriously, SM43 OS ash and what many think is young dia look way more like ash than SM ash). Meanwhile, good storyboarding and shot composition can save limited animation, examples being the first 3 gens of the pokemon anime or the original dragon ball (the latter especially, given how most of it was outsourced, but since toriyama is a master at paneling, using the manga as a sort of storyboard worked wonders), and frankly, the storyboarding for the pokemon anime is underrated, nobody talks about it even though there are very few instances of bland or flat storyboarding, and for each one of them there have been tons of fantastic storyboards, and it's not something new, looking back, even gen 1 had great storyboards, which definitely helped deliver some of the most iconic moments in the series, like ash protecting pikachu from the flock of spearow back in episode 1.
    Anyways, I legit hope they keep the current artstyle, but redesign ash and jessie, make the colors pop out more (SM's color pallete feels a bit washed out IMO), add just a bit more of shading, and bring back the 3d camera
     
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  20. Lord Starfish

    Lord Starfish Fond of owls

    From what I've seen... Yeah animation enthusiasts did indeed like XY at the time of its airing. It was the best the show has ever looked... Then Sun & Moon came out and blew it out of the water in all the ways said animation enthusiasts tend to care about, and emphasizing all the things that previous Pokémon series didn't do too well, in turn also making it significantly harder to go back. It's kind of akin to how I wouldn't criticize XY the game for lacking the DexNav feature, but having that thing in ORAS only to revert to a far less convenient system in Sun & Moon was very annoying.
     

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