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Do you like how the anime treated the Trial Captains?

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
Well not that I disagree, but didn't nearly every previous series suffer a similar problem with half the number of main characters?
Serena the first half of XY, Clemont after his gym battle, Misty throughout most of Johto, Brock after Kanto, etc. It's pretty much a reoccurring problem I guess.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Pls point me to one character in any other series that is less developed than Mallow.

I do agree Mallow is REALLY going to waste, but DP Brock is a close contender (he did at least have the odd running gag and capture, but yeah, his limelight mostly amounted to the same). Character agency has always been an obstacle for many protagonists, even ones that AREN'T third wheels. At least some of the SM captains are subverting this and actually having memorable roles routinely without any of the usual short cuts like Team Rocket or COTD, which was actually pretty rare beforehand, even for Ash.
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Serena the first half of XY, Clemont after his gym battle, Misty throughout most of Johto, Brock after Kanto, etc. It's pretty much a reoccurring problem I guess.
I think it's gonna stay like this or worse, if Ash is the only one allowed to do battles, save the world, participate into activities and have more depth to his goal than the others.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
I do agree Mallow is REALLY going to waste, but DP Brock is a close contender (he did at least have the odd running gag and capture, but yeah, his limelight mostly amounted to the same). Character agency has always been an obstacle for many protagonists, even ones that AREN'T third wheels. At least some of the SM captains are subverting this and actually having memorable roles routinely without any of the usual short cuts like Team Rocket or COTD, which was actually pretty rare beforehand.
I remember back when I first joined how much flak Brock got in DP because he has hardly had much focus in the series. It's really nothing new with Mallow honestly
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think it's gonna stay like this or worse, if Ash is the only one allowed to do battles, save the world, participate into activities and have more depth to his goal than the others.

Which is funny because many complain his goal is one of the LEAST depthful out of the cast throughout the anime.

I dunno, I like how Ash bounces off the SM captains, I think we should have more episodes where he is a supporting character, since he can fit into lots of the companions' episodes in an entertaining way and they still feel about them. Kiawe's two battle episodes, Sophocles' Charjabug race, Lillie's Poni Canyon trial, these were all really good episodes in SM where Ash had a palpable role but the highlight was one of the other characters. Roles also seem to be shared more evenly in the Ultra Guardian episodes.

In fairness most of the competitions and activities in SM have nearly everyone involved, or at least often one or two companions besides Ash. In fact, given Ash is often bad at them, it sometimes feels like he's primarily there to make them look good.
 
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I do agree Mallow is REALLY going to waste, but DP Brock is a close contender (he did at least have the odd running gag and capture, but yeah, his limelight mostly amounted to the same). Character agency has always been an obstacle for many protagonists, even ones that AREN'T third wheels. At least some of the SM captains are subverting this and actually having memorable roles routinely without any of the usual short cuts like Team Rocket or COTD, which was actually pretty rare beforehand, even for Ash.

Brock overall is good tho. Brock just came in DP for the fans
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Brock overall is good tho. Brock just came in DP for the fans

Brock largely suffered the same problem post-Johto however, spending many episodes in the background, and a lot of his individual focus coming down to episodic half finished plots where he jobbed Team Rocket or some other irrelevant loser for scout points. His pros were doing a bit more comedy (men are allowed to do more butt monkey humour than girls) and having a fuller more vibrant Pokemon team (and even then only in later episodes, his OS Pokemon seldom had personalities). Also I will grant that while Brock was unremarkable at times he was at least allowed to look like it, getting worfed or losing the odd competition which made him seem less bubble wrapped than Mallow whose only ever active in situations she can win easily.
 
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Slapstick-Olivia

Well-Known Member
I'm not so sure if the butt monkey victim rule really applies to Pokémon. The female characters are not immun to slapstick like a lot of female characters here in the west. Jessie, Iris and Olivia are constantly the victims of slapstick. And those three are ust the biggest female targets when it comes to that. Dawn, Misty, Lillie, Lana, Mallow etc. all of them will get their fair amount of slapstick. The only female characters, that where kinda immun to slapstick where Serena and Bonnie, but mostly because X&Y tried t be a more mature anime and also for some reasons May (I think). I actually do not remember many slapstick scenes involving her.

And I'm actually very glad the Pokémon anime is not afraid to show stuff like this and tries to be political correct like almost all western animation films and shows. Imagine if a western studio came up with a character like Olivia, a very tall, cooky, middle-aged (but still attractive looking) black woman who always gets into ridiculous slapstick situations. Can you imagine the out try of the social justice warriors on the internet? Olivia would be considered as sexist, racist and maybe even be blamed for body shaming because of her tall height. You know how people are today. Way to sensitive... I'm so happy that the Japanese people are not bound to many rules and regulations like the people in the west.
 
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Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
And I'm actually very glad the Pokémon anime is not afraid to show stuff like this and tries to be political correct like almost all western animation films and shows. Imagine if a western studio came up with a character like Olivia, a very tall, cooky, middle-aged (but still attractive looking) black woman who always gets into ridiculous slapstick situations. Can you imagine the out try of the social justice warriors on the internet? Olivia would be considered as sexist, racist and maybe even be blamed for body shaming because of her tall height. You know how people are today. Way to sensitive... I'm so happy that the Japanese people are not bound to many rules and regulations like the people in the west.

How is this rant relevant to the discussion? Not that I agree with any of what you're saying here, but whatever.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
WARNING: Long winded, possibly spurious and off topic rant ensuing from this point:

May I remember doing a bit of slapstick, she also got into peril more times than the other Pokegirls, usually in humiliating ways like TR tying her up and dangling her on a branch or a Caterpie mummifying her. While not without her plot armour moments, I also remember her being allowed to lose or struggle for things more routinely than the XY-onwards females along with her flawed nature being demonstrated more thoroughly (eg. chewed out by judges for pushing her Bulbasaur).

There is a fallible nature to the female companions I think is lost XY onwards, like they don't like showing their ugly side too much or seeing them get dragged through the mud. They have more endearing flaws like timidness or low confidence and they tend to avoid putting them in situations they really make an ass of themselves. Sometimes I feel like they shifted most of the females out of battle focus because it is an agenda that requires too much violence and mandatory losses (and even then they wanted us to believe Serena's 'bubble wrapped' battle run put her on par with Ash in the end). Mallow and her Pokemon have been revealed to have a temper for example, but it's not been shown to have the same detrimental consequences as Kiawe's team at times, or even Ash's, or when it does cause harm it's for someone else with them never put on the spot for it (eg. Bounsweet almost getting Rowlet and Popplio killed and ASH getting blamed for it). It's not a developed flaw. Many were also very critical of the anime castrating Lillie's backstory with her mother into something far more mundane, and while the phobia arc balanced it a bit, it was kinda solved too easily through contrived circumstance.

Notice the same thing occurred in XY, Clemont was sidelined as much in the last half as Serena was in the first, but Clemont seemed to make more use of the opportunities he got, gaining more character agency through his strengths and weakness (weak physical power, but tech smart) and generally feeling like he got more challenges or unique team play with the main character, while Serena was mostly restricted to internal development, otherwise only allowed to contribute in rather bare bones one sided affairs like Team Rocket which didn't really develop a specific niche among the team, even her own competition arc felt tailor made so she'd be head and shoulders above everyone else without needing to improve. You had to feel for the beatings or 'worfings' the likes of Bunnelby took for the team as well, while Braixen and Sylveon seldom took a hit outside to inflict a plot armour boost, even when they wanted to sell the opponent was dangerous. Even concerning her crush, Serena had a ridiculously perfect version of Ash she seldom had conflicts and hardships with, the one time she did they tried to make Ash the one in the wrong for once. Serena just felt more off limits than Clemont did.

I think this is maybe why Ash, Kiawe and Sophocles are allowed to stick out more in SM, because the more open opportunity for both positive and negative makes them way more versatile and more capability for creative contributions and foibles, while the females, besides the occasional gag or bit of light slapstick, tend to be sidelined outside more basic, harmless affairs so don't develop as much character agency as the boys. Lillie is the nearest to an exception, similarly having the 'frail brain power' role Clemont had. Generally a well rounded character needs a mix of winner and loser qualities, competent but still vulnerable, and it has to be demonstrated so the character can develop a position for themselves.
 
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Remix2

Well-Known Member
I'm not so sure if the butt monkey victim rule really applies to Pokémon. The female characters are not immun to slapstick like a lot of female characters here in the west. Jessie, Iris and Olivia are constantly the victims of slapstick. And those three are ust the biggest female targets when it comes to that. Dawn, Misty, Lillie, Lana, Mallow etc. all of them will get their fair amount of slapstick. The only female characters, that where kinda immun to slapstick where Serena and Bonnie, but mostly because X&Y tried t be a more mature anime and also for some reasons May (I think). I actually do not remember many slapstick scenes involving her.

And I'm actually very glad the Pokémon anime is not afraid to show stuff like this and tries to be political correct like almost all western animation films and shows. Imagine if a western studio came up with a character like Olivia, a very tall, cooky, middle-aged (but still attractive looking) black woman who always gets into ridiculous slapstick situations. Can you imagine the out try of the social justice warriors on the internet? Olivia would be considered as sexist, racist and maybe even be blamed for body shaming because of her tall height. You know how people are today. Way to sensitive... I'm so happy that the Japanese people are not bound to many rules and regulations like the people in the west.

And what does politics correctness have anything to do with anything with trial captains other then complaining about something that most people don’t care about.

Anyway I feel like the captain haven’t been handled well, since they fell into two group. One group had some development but not much when there not on the spotlight(Lana and Kwiae) and the other group are basically glorified background characters(mallow and clement knockoff)
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
And what does politics correctness have anything to do with anything with trial captains other then complaining about something that most people don’t care about.

Anyway I feel like the captain haven’t been handled well, since they fell into two group. One group had some development but not much when there not on the spotlight(Lana and Kwiae) and the other group are basically glorified background characters(mallow and clement knockoff)

I think it's less for the sake of political correctness and more in terms of helping the cast develop character agency. You generally need both developed positive and negative qualities in a character for them to develop agency and bounce off of anything the show offers them in a fun way.

Plus also the basic case of 'abuse = audience sympathy'. No one likes the Mary Sue or invincible hero who never struggles or has anything at their expense for example because there's simply no pathos to that (though I don't think we have anyone quite as bad as that in the anime....yet). It's one of the reasons I think SM Ash is endearing for example, since he has plenty competent traits and often comes through, but keeps struggling and suffering pratfalls along the way. He is a fallible character and they put that into some sort of personality.
 

Eeveelutiongen1to7

A guy who loves Eeveelutions!
Each Trial Captian had his or her own focussed episode. So that isnt bad. But I personally think they screwed up by making it such a large group. Why didnt they drop the School thing and let Ash and Lillie travel with each Trial Captian through the Island they belong. For example Ilma on MeleMele, Kiawe on Akala etc. And then they became the Trial Captian on their Island.
 

Remix2

Well-Known Member
Each Trial Captian had his or her own focussed episode. So that isnt bad. But I personally think they screwed up by making it such a large group. Why didnt they drop the School thing and let Ash and Lillie travel with each Trial Captian through the Island they belong. For example Ilma on MeleMele, Kiawe on Akala etc. And then they became the Trial Captian on their Island.

Probably because they want to do something different but it like they took the idea and did nothing with it and that results in the school being a complete liability.

Honestly if they did do a school setting they shoulda copy the one from Mha.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I feel like by SM the writers wanted to subvert the vanilla protagonist reputation of Ash and the other twerps and prove they could stand out completely on their own, no travelling, no COTD formula, increasingly less Team Rocket butting in, just the protagonists being fun based on their actual personalities.

This experimentation has come with it's downsides and failures, but I do think it's one that is worth dabbling in. Ash just feels way more strongly characterised now, Kiawe is one of the better male companions, and Lillie, Sophocles and even ROTOMDEX have some really good bits of limelight, seldom relying on the anime's old distractions and short cuts. Mallow and Lana are still not quite there however, I think they were the token lot they just didn't click something for.

In fairness giving palpable limelight to 4 out of 6 protagonists is better than the usual 1 or 2 out of 3 or 4 most previous series had as a success rate. I do agree that using a smaller cast would probably have helped the better handled companions in the long run (I'd have rather had twice as many Kiawe or Lillie episodes than Mallow ones).
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I don't think it's a fault of the cast size that Mallow gets a bit sidelined, they could've done more with her episodes but just didn't. That's down to the writing and not the cast size. And even then, it's not like it's horrible, Mallow is far from abysmal. I think Mallow-hatred seems to be a bit extreme here on the forums lately. Lana just hasn't seen much action in a while, she's due for another episode and I think it's time for Popplio to evolve, but it's not like her episodes were awful or anything.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I admit it might be part because I'm spoiled by the other characters getting really diverse episodes that really show off their character in this series. Mallow is pretty poor in limelight however, she doesn't really do much at all even when in centre stage.

Lana's limelight isn't bad, but the problem is she doesn't stick out at all unless she's in centre stage, which is in sporadic doses. Popplio is also a pretty bland Pokemon personality wise, having maybe one episode it demonstrated real quirks. I could argue a similar problem occurred with Lillie in the first season, having good spotlight episodes but being a background character otherwise, though after the AF arc she did improve and find more of a role for herself.

I think a problem might also stem from their more limited Pokemon. Ash, Kiawe and Sophocles all have bigger teams, meaning more opportunities for them to all bounce off of each other or be used in variations, regularly Ash and Kiawe's Pokemon are the most active and useful in any situation at hand. They also have a larger amount of quirks and foibles than the girls' lot, besides Snowy's snobbishness and timidness, and even that's gotten downplayed heavily over time. Togedemaru and Charjabug are pretty much stagnant, but they still have gained a reasonable amount of character and unique bits of usefulness, while Tsareena, in spite of being fully evolved, is still pretty unmemorable outside smacking a few jobbers.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I don't think Lana not sticking out much when she's not in centre stage is a problem. It's part of her character, she's quite introverted, shy, and socially awkward. They could do more with that side of her, but I don't think it's really a side of her that can easily spark conflict, so it's mostly played for gags with her.
 
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