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Do you think Alain defeating ash at the kalos league is rigged?

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Do people that hate Ash-Greninja hate Blaze-Infernape as well?

Because they're literally interchangeable, what with being a power-up linked to a certain condition being met that usually results in the battle swiftly being decided

:p
But Greninja got an appearence in games like Smash 4 and as a the main Pokemon in SM demo, complete with the synchro transformation, so its hype is being amplified compared to Infernape.
 
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It wasn't regarded as an ability in the games until it was released, and the anime never gave a good explaination for why it happened either. If your going to do something that big, you better have a good excuse for why it happens, the anime did not provide such.

Alain's Charizard was shown to be pretty strong without mega evolving, Greninja hardly ever got to show what it was capable of without transforming.

You want proof it's a crutch? Look at the battles with Sawyer. it lost to sceptile normally, but then had it's number when they fought in the league in their powered up forms, if that's not crutch I don't know what is.

And yes I know and expect someone to say. "Ash was to busy trying to focus on the transformation during that fight." that kinda proves the point further because apparently the writers didn't have faith Greninja could win against Sceptile without resorting to transforming.



or ignorance is bliss I suppose.

we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

It's the Pokemon anime. They really don't give ME or Z-moves this huge backstory either lol. It was formed due to the strong bond beween Ash and Greninja, Greninja had the capability to do so, so that's why it happened.

Normal Greninja wrecked plenty of Pokes

@Genaller what are Base-Greninja's feats? I remember that one Scizor

Also, it losing to Sawyer's sceptile was because Ash was unable to take charge and do anything.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Do I even need to remind you that as a Frogadier, Greninja technically never lost a battle? Go and re-watch all of Greninja's battles in XY since it was a Froakie before spouting this stuff.

Yet this doesn't stop people from bashing Torterra despite the fact it had more wins as a Turtwig, because to some, the evo's are different pokemon.

While I prefer not to go there myself, but as a Greninja, there weren't many wins without transforming to write home about which to me is wrong because being Ash's first fully evolved water starter I wanted an impressive showing, but the transformation overtook it in nearly, making the fact it evolved at all an afterthought.

And literally from where did you get notion that Sawyer's Sceptile was a weakling lol?

I never said Sceptile was a weakling, i said Greninja's transformation was a Crutch, not an Extension, Scepitle was my example for this because it had to rely on the transformation to beat Sceptile two out of the three times they fought, the one time the transformation didn't trigger, look what happened.

I'd rather not continue this discussion personally.
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Yet this doesn't stop people from bashing Torterra despite the fact it had more wins as a Turtwig, because to some, the evo's are different pokemon.

While I prefer not to go there myself, but as a Greninja, there weren't many wins without transforming to write home about which to me is wrong because being Ash's first fully evolved water starter I wanted an impressive showing, but the transformation overtook it in nearly, making the fact it evolved at all an afterthought.



I never said Sceptile was a weakling, i said Greninja's transformation was a Crutch, not an Extension, Scepitle was my example for this because it had to rely on the transformation to beat Sceptile two out of the three times they fought, the one time the transformation didn't trigger, look what happened.

I'd rather not continue this discussion personally.

That was only because Ash was to focus on trying to trigger the transformation that when he couldn't activate he stood there in shock which distracted Greninja which was what gave Sceptile the opening it needed to win, given the fact that in every battle against Sawyer when Ash and Greninja were focus they were always shown to be one step ahead of Sawyer so there is no reason to think that if Ash had stayed focus on the battle that Greninja couldn't have beaten Sceptile without transforming.

As for the other 2 battles where it won the first time when Sceptile couldn't Mega Evolve it wasn't really a case of where Ash and Greninja where just trying to transform as it just sort of happened to activate at that moment, and the other time they won was when Sceptile Mega Evolved against it.

So using the battle where Ash lost to Sawyer because he was distracted doesn't prove that Greninja couldn't beat Sceptile when there in their base forms or that the transformation was a crutch because there isn't really any reason to think that if Ash had stayed focus on the battle that he wouldn't be able to win against Sawyer's Sceptile. If the battle said anything about the pokemon it was that at the time the only way Sawyer's Sceptile could win against Greninja is if it was distracted by something else.

Look anyone or pokemon can lose no matter how strong they are if they get distracted and aren't focusing on the battle here, what your trying to do right now is saying that oh well because Greninja lost when it got distracted by waiting for Ash's command who was in shock that he wasn't able to activate Greninja's transformation that somehow means that Greninja is weaker then Sawyer's Sceptile is ridiculous.

While is true that Sawyer and his Sceptile did improve and do better then they did before it was pretty clear that Ash and his Greninja still had the advantage heck you can even see how they were surprised by how fast Greninja was and literally the only reason they wound up finding an opening was because Greninja was distracted.
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
@Genaller what are Base-Greninja's feats? I remember that one Scizor
Also, it losing to Sawyer's sceptile was because Ash was unable to take charge and do anything.
Base Greninja’s Feats:

— Tanked multiple hits from MC-X in both XYZ 13 and 23 including super effective Thunder Punches.
— Tanked a Shadow Ball + shockwave from Moonblast and landed a hit on Diantha’s Base Gardevoir. It’s true that at this point Diantha wasn’t taking the battle seriously though still Greninja was capable of causing Gardevoir non-trivial damage depicted by Gardevoir flinching and moaning.
— Beat some trainer’s Scizor.
— Revenge Killed Sawyer’s Clawitzer easily. It’s true that Clawitzer had fought both Noivern and Hawlucha previously though Clawitzer at 1 point did heal up with a Mega Launcher boosted Heal Pulse, so it probably did have a decent chunk of health left yet still got overpowered and KOed by Greninja in 1 hit.
— Revenge Killed Alain’s Bisharp easily.
— Fought to a stalemate with Sawyer’s Base Sceptile at the Kalos League (the Pokémon had three move interactions which were Water Shuriken vs Dragon Claw, Double Team vs Frenzy Plant and Cut vs Leaf Blade after which neither Pokémon had the upper hand on the other). This provides good evidence that Greninja in Base is on par with Sawyer’s Base Sceptile as of the Kalos League and Sawyer’s Base Sceptile is comparable to (if not a tad better than) Paul’s Base Electivire based on their parallel performances against Tierno’s Blastoise and Barry’s Empoleon respectively placing Base Greninja at around the lvl of Ash’s Base Infernape (if not a tad higher).
— Got the better of Alain’s Base Charizard in their sole Cut vs Flamethrower move interaction and caused it visible damaged indicated by Zard clinching and being pushed back.

Also people need to stop conflating Ash’s motivatio regarding why he wanted A-G to transform in XYZ 26. In XYZ 26 we know that Ash was battling trainers with the premise of trying to activate the A-G form again but to no avail. Even against Sawyer Ash battled with Greninja with the goal of trying to activate the form. In the past Ash would exclusively activate the form when Greninja is struggling in Base form, so Ash was trying especially hard to activate the A-G form when Base Greninja was struggling not because he didn’t think Base Greninja had a chance at winning but because he knew that such situations were when Greninja was previously able to transform and once again Ash was having battles with Greninja in XYZ 26 with the premise of trying to activate the form. Finally even if Sceptile > Greninja as of XYZ 26 it means practically nothing since what matters is how strong both were at their peak a.k.a at the Kalos League and by portrayal they are on par in Base.
 

blizzardblaze

Comp. Battler Who loves The Anime
Argh...if only they had somehow trained harder...
 
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