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Do you think Alain defeating ash at the kalos league is rigged?

Litleonid

Well-Known Member
Alain won only because the writers decided to throw out all the development and ignore development for Alain that he needed because they can't get over the fact their stupid "The anime must end if Ash wins a regional league" rule. They don't HAVE to. Winning a league doesn't make him a Pokemon Master, considering there is another step beyond winning a league, which is the Champion's League. Let Ash win a league and have him go on to get beat by the Elite 4.
 

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
Alain won only because the writers decided to throw out all the development and ignore development for Alain that he needed because they can't get over the fact their stupid "The anime must end if Ash wins a regional league" rule. They don't HAVE to. Winning a league doesn't make him a Pokemon Master, considering there is another step beyond winning a league, which is the Champion's League. Let Ash win a league and have him go on to get beat by the Elite 4.
Erm...Alain winning didn't throw out any of his or Ash's prior development

It was the culmination of all their experience coming to a clash and the win was literally a coin flip that fell in Alain's favor because he was fighting for a future where Mairin could smile again

Ash didn't stand a chance :p
 

Litleonid

Well-Known Member
Erm...Alain winning didn't throw out any of his or Ash's prior development
It threw out a chance for development for Alain. My biggest issue with Alain was his constant "I'll never lose again!" comments. They showed him off to be this incredible overpowered trainer who never did lose after the first time he lost to Seibold in his debut. They could have turned that into development when he ACTUALLY does lose. Teach him that he's not invincible like he thinks he is. Make him feel like he failed, then they could have let him rise up and grow from it in the Team Flare arc.
 

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
It threw out a chance for development for Alain. My biggest issue with Alain was his constant "I'll never lose again!" comments. They showed him off to be this incredible overpowered trainer who never did lose after the first time he lost to Seibold in his debut. They could have turned that into development when he ACTUALLY does lose. Teach him that he's not invincible like he thinks he is. Make him feel like he failed, then they could have let him rise up and grow from it in the Team Flare arc.
Then I suggest you watch the episodes that came after the League, because that's literally what happened
 

Litleonid

Well-Known Member
Then I suggest you watch the episodes that came after the League, because that's literally what happened
Not really. He realized Lysandre was using him and he felt incredibly guilty. He felt like he failed Marin for that, and then Ash snapped him out of it and he joined the fight against Lysandre. That isn't saying Alain learned he isn't invincible and he might lose someday. In his final episode also, he just basically said "I'm gonna start from scratch and get back to where I was my way without help from the wrong person."
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
It threw out a chance for development for Alain. My biggest issue with Alain was his constant "I'll never lose again!" comments. They showed him off to be this incredible overpowered trainer who never did lose after the first time he lost to Seibold in his debut. They could have turned that into development when he ACTUALLY does lose. Teach him that he's not invincible like he thinks he is. Make him feel like he failed, then they could have let him rise up and grow from it in the Team Flare arc.
Actually Alain totally got his butt kicked by Primals in Mega Evolution special 3, and even if it wasn't an official battle it still ruthlessly showed that there are creatures which far surpasses Alain's Mega Charizard X's strength and can easily overpower it. Also Steven was holding the upper hand against Alain in their battle in Mega Evolution Act 2. Add to this Alain's loss to Siebold in Mega Evolution Act 1. Upto Mega Evolution Act 3, Alain and his Mega Charizard X didn't quite get the overpowered portrayal relative to the opponents it faced, it was shown struggling and somethimes outmtched too by the opponents it faced.

It's actually from Mega Evolution Act 4 that Alain and his Mega Charizard X's insanely overpowered portrayal starts. From that point, they just continue to sweep each and every opponent they faced in a battle, winning pretty much every one of those battles(apart from the unfinished battle with Ash-Greninja in XY&Z23), not even losing a single time.
 
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Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
Not really. He realized Lysandre was using him and he felt incredibly guilty. He felt like he failed Marin for that, and then Ash snapped him out of it and he joined the fight against Lysandre. That isn't saying Alain learned he isn't invincible and he might lose someday. In his final episode also, he just basically said "I'm gonna start from scratch and get back to where I was my way without help from the wrong person."
*slow clap*

And there he just lost everything that made him who he was, and so he goes back to square one to do it again by his own hand
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think the whole point was that both ended up not being cutting out for the goals they intended to be, though I could argue Ash got screwed over slightly more. Alain at least got to win the league solo, while Ash ended up overshadowed by the legendary during TF's last stand.
 

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
I think the whole point was that both ended up not being cutting out for the goals they intended to be, though I could argue Ash got screwed over slightly more. Alain at least got to win the league solo, while Ash ended up overshadowed by the legendary during TF's last stand.
Eh, he was still branded a Hero of Kalos, which I imagine is a tad more impressive than "won a League"
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I think the whole point was that both ended up not being cutting out for the goals they intended to be, though I could argue Ash got screwed over slightly more. Alain at least got to win the league solo, while Ash ended up overshadowed by the legendary during TF's last stand.
Ehhh, I'm fine with Alan's development even though how he and the rest of the characters who appeared in the Mega Evolution Special Acts devolved as characters as far as how their original characters were like. I still feel like he was supposed to be mentoring Manon to later on surpass him but hey, finding another Mega Stone & Ring while looking into Mega Evolution research isn't really off track since they are on a journey together. He was just used to get Ash to lose the Kalos League. I see the Team Flare arc as a major part of Alan's character arc which has been discussed and confirmed back when the episodes were airing. Ash didn't have much of a reason to outshine Alan aside from being the main character when Alan had more reasons to be the one to take down Team Flare when he had to save Hari san, battle Lysandre, (almost) sacrifice the crucified baby Jesus, realize he's been used, lose everything and atone to his sins, and change to become a better person. It's kind of like if Ash took over the Aether Foundation arc just because he bonded with Nebby and stole the spotlight off of Lillie's arc when he should be a highlighted support character, which he was in the Team Flare arc.

The only thing Ash got screwed over is not winning the League but he was no match to Alan and his Mega Charizard X with the heated will to survive Alan displayed during the final battle.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think it's Ash's rather tragic designation to be support for other people instead of getting his own dreams realised. If anything it feels like he's more driven by altruism than showing off his own talents (notice the competence difference between class activities and most of the climaxes in SM).

Like you said, one of the more clever elements of the AF arc was it looking like he was completely stealing Lillie's thunder by having Nebby and being 'the chosen one', only for her to take central stage during the last half and Ash to largely turn into emotional support and extra resources for her story.

I think the problem with both arcs (and several other villain ones) is the insistence on having the villain go out in a very flashy (and one sided) bang that kinda negates all the work beforehand and often undermines the character that's supposed to be in centre stage (eg. Ash getting Pikachuinium Z out of nowhere, Zygarde transforming and showing they could have decimated the Megalith with their left pinky easily the whole time), rather than continuing to focus on that team work being the element that stops them. Temple of the Sea had a similar issue, I didn't mind Ash protecting May and trying to do things himself, but I feel like a better climax would have been him exhausting himself activating the temple and May taking over to stop the villain's last getaway, instead of the ridiculous 'super sayian Ash' coming out of nowhere and decimating him, meaning Ash pretty much stole the whole show.

It's a shame because these are all villain arcs that actually managed to give personal involvement to one of the main characters (or in XY's case at least, an ascended spin off character).
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
The AF arc was still about Lillie, she had pretty good screentime and focus, I don't think Ash took that much spotlight from her (after all, she had the more emotional scene with Solgaleo despite Ash being the one to find him, Lillie was the one to name him Nebby/Hoshigumo chan and it was shared between everyone, Ash and Lillie as the highlighted characters, that bonded with Nebby.) I think they just wanted to show off Ash using 10 million Volt Z Move as a stunning final shot. Everyone had a decent support role in it, especially Ash who did more of the abrasive work as Lillie had to confront her past trauma and Mother Beast. She was in no way capable of battling at the time so it was the obvious choice that Ash be the one to take down Mother Beast. He was a great support role that helped shed some light towards Lillie.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think both were kinda screwed over in terms of Nebby since it barely appeared long enough for either of them to gain a palpable bond with it.

I feel like a lot of the Flare arc was similar, it wanted to chain off some development for most of the cast but there wasn't enough substance and there was just way too many plots going on at once to really make each one solid in terms of involvement.
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I think both were kinda screwed over in terms of Nebby since it barely appeared long enough for either of them to gain a palpable bond with it.

I feel like a lot of the Flare arc was similar, it wanted to chain off some development for most of the cast but there wasn't enough substance and there was just way too many plots going on at once to really make each one solid in terms of involvement.
I totally agree with this. Though Nebby was handled a bit better since it did interact with the group and played a sort of important role with Lillie like that one time where it kept transporting Ash and Lillie to places where Lillie got to reminisce on past memories. That's much preferable than the forced barely existent friendship Serena immediately got with Manon just because they're girls. And Nebby didn't affect the characters to suffer from OOCness like it happened in the TF arc. At least Nebby helped out in some way, it helped drive the plot.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I can't believe people are still salty about this. Alain beat him fair and square. I hope for the Alola League they don't pull a Camereon or a Tobias.
I'm still predicting that Prof Kukui will be Ash's last battle in the Alola League.
 

xEryChan

Demon Child
Seriously guys? Alain won the league fair and square. There is no proof that he used the mega evolution energy to power up his Charizard. He always believed in training to be strong, that is precisely what he did. He never cheated, he never even knew he was being used until a couple of episode later at the top of Prism Tower.

If everyone is going to single out Alain, what about Tobias? That guy used two Legendary Pokemon. Heck, he probably had a whole team of Legendary Pokemon and everyone is okay with that? That makes no sense.
 

CabochonJaw

Well-Known Member
The 2nd anniversary is coming up and I hope that everyone is well. I don't think that Alain cheated his way to victory. Meanwhile, we should probably investigate that guy with the Meowth. They allowed it to wear "boots," but is that the full story?
 
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