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Do you think Ash will beat Leon in the M8?

Will Ash beat Leon?

  • Yes

    Votes: 95 60.9%
  • No

    Votes: 61 39.1%

  • Total voters
    156
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Sham

The Guardian of War
Another thing, I feel like a lot of people are making justifications because they want Ash to leave from his trance that’s been put on him by Ho-oh to finally seem like he’s getting somewhere after how many series of losing leagues and that’s why these logic gymnastics are being played on why he “earned” his way of defeating Champions with a new team. By this logic there was literally nothing stopping them from making AG-XY being Champion stompers if that’s all it took.

Right package wrong sender

Right idea wrong team
 

Sonic Boom

@JohanSSB4 Twitter
At the very least, SM should have brought Cynthia back for an episode where Ash takes her down to just her Mega Garchomp in a 6v6 with his Alola team.

Monday Night Quarterbacking here, but by doing that, you:

- set up a future rematch with the two
- bring the incoming battle in JN into a fresher light
- demonstrate that Ash is capable of bringing up a new team to fight Champions early on, in an inherently sillier series so it's easier to stomach
- allow the Dynamax Togekiss curveball to be a bigger deal and a true swerve, as Ash would be preparing to take out a Mega Garchomp he was close to beating last time
- establish a clearer level of power Ash is at compared to Champions
- put a greater impact on Ash winning the Alola League, and what that means for everyone else who competed in the final brackets.

Get that foreshadowing in.
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
At the very least, SM should have brought Cynthia back for an episode where Ash takes her down to just her Mega Garchomp.
They didn’t even know they were going to give Cynthia a Mega Garchomp. Remember the mess of production that is the Master Tournament? Well Ash’s battles were written first and she was always planned to Dynamax Togekiss before Mega Garchomp was even thought of

So yeah, that wouldn’t have been a thing
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
isn't that what we do in the games, of which Ash is supposed to be the reflection of for this show?
Isn't this a bit of a convenient time to suddenly decide that how things work in the games matter to the anime? Ash took about twenty years too long to become a Champion, if that's the case.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
Isn't this a bit of a convenient time to suddenly decide that how things work in the games matter to the anime? Ash took about twenty years too long to become a Champion, if that's the case.

Having answers to questions we don't know is just as "convenient" don't you think?

Cause at the end of the day, no one knows or has control over what the writers choose to do this saga, you can ask as many questions as you want, and claim to know the answers to those questions, but the truth is you can't because we're not in control of what of what is happening with this show, nor will we ever know.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
Having answers to questions we don't know is just as "convenient" don't you think?

Cause at the end of the day, no one knows or has control over what the writers choose to do this saga, you can ask as many questions as you want, and claim to know the answers to those questions, but the truth is you can't because we're not in control of what of what is happening with this show, nor will we ever know.
I confess I’m at a loss as to what you’re trying to get at with this post. Nothing I said has the slightest bit to do with anything you’ve said here, nor have I claimed to have answers for anything. I’m not even sure what questions I’m apparently making convenient answers for, honestly.

There’s no convenience in pointing out that you don’t surpass people of equal skill level without bringing your a-game, at least not in a realistic manner. That’s not a statement being made about the show; that’s a broad statement about how comparing power, skill etc. between characters in any media works.

To use a slightly awkward comparison, Yu-Gi-Oh! GX had an episode where the main character lost to somebody using a deck he’d cobbled together on the spot. The point of this was to illustrate that this character was so far beyond the main character in skill, that he could still win without bringing his best.

That is, in effect, what Ash is doing. Except he’s doing it to people of equal skill level, and we’re being told to believe that a freshly raised team is a ready match for (at least partially) more established teams, raised by people ostensibly equally adept at raising their Pokémon as he is. Ash would have to be handily better than all of these Champions for that to make sense.

And this isn’t a concept foreign to the anime, either. Deliberately or not, the anime up until DP showed a progression of Ash getting better when using his best, maintaining that progression with a freshly raised team in AG, and then breaking that limit with his A-game again in DP.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
I confess I’m at a loss as to what you’re trying to get at with this post. Nothing I said has the slightest bit to do with anything you’ve said here, nor have I claimed to have answers for anything. I’m not even sure what questions I’m apparently making convenient answers for, honestly.

it's probably just me, but the way you responded to my post seemed like arrogance talking, for that I apologize.
There’s no convenience in pointing out that you don’t surpass people of equal skill level without bringing your a-game, at least not in a realistic manner. That’s not a statement being made about the show; that’s a broad statement about how comparing power, skill etc. between characters in any media works.

This is a mixed thing, because I've seen people use examples of other animes countless times, only for others to counter that it shouldn't apply since they want pokemon to be it's own thing.

in the end it comes down to personal preference I suppose on what people want to bring to the table, and what people will accept.
To use a slightly awkward comparison, Yu-Gi-Oh! GX had an episode where the main character lost to somebody using a deck he’d cobbled together on the spot.

Are you referring to Jaden's first Duel with Aster? you might want to go back and re-watch that because he lost that duel, even if he was told to do it.

And when it came time to use his true cards against Jaden, he won alright, but Jaden got him back not long after with a handful of new cards he had never used before himself, sure Aster knew how to use what he got out of those packs despite losing on purpose, but Jaden didn't even test his new cards before fighting him the third time, and still won despite that and Aster using a new boss monster at the same time.

in hindsight that's not much different than how things are with Ash and his current team.

And this isn’t a concept foreign to the anime, either. Deliberately or not, the anime up until DP showed a progression of Ash getting better when using his best, maintaining that progression with a freshly raised team in AG, and then breaking that limit with his A-game again in DP.

Then BW killed that by having him fall backwards, XY started a rebound, SM had him win a league, JN's...i guess only things could only go up?

I suppose the general point I was trying to make before was that it's pointless to question and demand answers from this show when the writers won't give them.

I can understand the fustration of the execution not being done well, but we're not in control of what we get.

I'd rather not debate this further with you, i'm not that type of person.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
it's probably just me, but the way you responded to my post seemed like arrogance talking, for that I apologize.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, if I came off that way then that's definitely on me, so I apologize as well.
This is a mixed thing, because I've seen people use examples of other animes countless times, only for others to counter that it shouldn't apply since they want pokemon to be it's own thing.

in the end it comes down to personal preference I suppose on what people want to bring to the table, and what people will accept.
Definitely agreed there. I err on the side of substance over style; if Ash winning comes at the expense of it being believable, I don't really want it.
Are you referring to Jaden's first Duel with Aster? you might want to go back and re-watch that because he lost that duel, even if he was told to do it.

And when it came time to use his true cards against Jaden, he won alright, but Jaden got him back not long after with a handful of new cards he had never used before himself, sure Aster knew how to use what he got out of those packs despite losing on purpose, but Jaden didn't even test his new cards before fighting him the third time, and still won despite that and Aster using a new boss monster at the same time.

in hindsight that's not much different than how things are with Ash and his current team.
Ah, whoops... that was what I was referring to. The general point I was making still stands, but yeah, I completely forgot the result of that.
Then BW killed that by having him fall backwards, XY started a rebound, SM had him win a league, JN's...i guess only things could only go up?

I suppose the general point I was trying to make before was that it's pointless to question and demand answers from this show when the writers won't give them.

I can understand the fustration of the execution not being done well, but we're not in control of what we get.

I'd rather not debate this further with you, i'm not that type of person.
Ideally for me, BW would have been another Top 4 finish, this time with just Unova Pokemon. Everything after is more or less fine, though I'd then add reserves to XY to keep up the trend.

I will leave it there, though. At the end of the day, you're right; we could debate back and forth over this, but we'll never get any answers that actually make any sort of difference.
 

Pteranodonte

Well-Known Member
Just let Ash beat that overrated guy and his plot armored Charizard and move to the next saga, so Pikachu can get destroyed by a level 5 Lechonk.
 

MetaMantis

Offline until Ash vs Leon
At the very least, SM should have brought Cynthia back for an episode where Ash takes her down to just her Mega Garchomp in a 6v6 with his Alola Team
Disagreed. Having them have such a close battle in SM diminishes the impact of the later Journeys battle imo.
 

Espeonite

Well-Known Member
Facts. Even logically speaking it doesn't make sense for him to beat Leonzard giving the circumstances of this show and just how they've displayed Leon demolishing the two Kalos competitors, especially Diantha. It would be one thing if she got half of his team but not even that. They were either saying Kalos trainers are extremely weak or Leon is just that strong.

However, if that means Goh, Chloe and Ash are outta here than throw away all logic freely.
Spot on!
 

Sonic Boom

@JohanSSB4 Twitter
Disagreed. Having them have such a close battle in SM diminishes the impact of the later Journeys battle imo.
What impact? The focus in JN has always been the upcoming fight with Leon. Cynthia is little more than a stepping stone toward that.

We’ve criticized the sudden retirement ploy she pulled before the battle, and not for no reason, after all.
 

MetaMantis

Offline until Ash vs Leon
What impact? The focus in JN has always been the upcoming fight with Leon. Cynthia is little more than a stepping stone toward that.

We’ve criticized the sudden retirement ploy she pulled before the battle, and not for no reason, after all.
The reason why the fact that Ash was going to fight Cynthia was so special is that it's not happened before. If it's just a 2nd battle, then it feels less special.
 
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