Do you think Ash will beat Leon in the M8?

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Because Diatha is the weakest champion ever shown in the anime, to be honest.

....She literally beat Lance

 

[Pteranodonte]

....She literally beat Lance

Yeah, and to do so they had to remove Lance brain for the episode...

 

[Blood Red]

I think Ash will end up beating Leon in the end, but for the life of me...I just can't see how. They've spent so long turning him into this nigh-unbeatable figure, and it's gonna be hard to swallow when Ash goes from struggling against Iris and Steven to somehow beating the guy who just trashed the Kalos Champ with half his team.

 

[GLTSRY]

Really, as long as the battle is fun and reaches the benchmark of previous great final battles, I couldn’t care less who wins.

 

[janejane6178]

I want that rude and arrogant man to lose
But Ash’s team is so crappy so I don’t see how he will beat that selfish man

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

I want that rude and arrogant man to lose
But Ash’s team is so crappy so I don’t see how he will beat that selfish man

If Ash wins it'll be by terrible plot armor

 

[Kazuniya]

I want that rude and arrogant man to lose
But Ash’s team is so crappy so I don’t see how he will beat that selfish man

Why is Leon arrogant, rude and selfish? Lmao.

 

[BlobbiBoi]

Why is Leon arrogant, rude and selfish? Lmao.

I'll never not find it funny that people accept Cynthia is strong for a Champion Just Because even though in the anime she really hasn't done a great deal to show that over the years, and what she has done is literally a mini 1-1 of Leon (she'd held the title since she was a kid, has never lost more than 2 pokemon to her own E4, etc).

But god forbid TPC spend three years saying "Leon is probably the strongest opponent Ash has ever gone against" and then actually have him show that by bopping some of his contemparies. At that point he's apparently JUST LIKE TOBIAS, the man who only appears in the last arc and uses literal legendaries.

 

[Kazuniya]

But god forbid TPC spend three years saying "Leon is probably the strongest opponent Ash has ever gone against" and then actually have him show that by bopping some of his contemparies. At that point he's apparently JUST LIKE TOBIAS, the man who only appears in the last arc and uses literal legendaries.

There's no problem with Leon being depicted as strong. The problem is that they have overdone it. It's an overkill. Leon has been portrayed as so strong to the point that Ash winning would make absolutely no sense. Realistically, Ash should be obliterated by Leon within one episode with the way the show has depicted Leon.

Leon's very strength appears to overshadow every Champion in M8. There's no balance. Not to mention it comes at a cost of other M8 participants being portrayed as absolute pushovers against him.

And lastly, there's no joy in watching Leon just annihilate his enemies. There's simply not. It's boring and uninteresting, and quite frankly, a waste of time.

 

[DankOverlord]

There's no problem with Leon being depicted as strong. The problem is that they have overdone it. It's an overkill. Leon has been portrayed as so strong to the point that Ash winning would make absolutely no sense. Realistically, Ash should be obliterated by Leon within one episode with the way the show has depicted Leon.

Leon's very strength appears to overshadow every Champion in M8. There's no balance. Not to mention it comes at a cost of other M8 participants being portrayed as absolute pushovers against him.

And lastly, there's no joy in watching Leon just annihilate his enemies. There's simply not. It's boring and uninteresting, and quite frankly, a waste of time.

And it's not even because he strategizes and controls the battle. He just brute forces his way into victory

 

[Torpoleon]

If Ash uses his Journeys team, I honestly find it hard for him to win, considering how much he is struggling against Cynthia. He also struggled against Steven. He beat all 3 of Steven's Pokemon and has so far beaten 2 of Cynthia's 6. That's 5 Pokemon beaten. Of those 5, 4 of them were beaten by Pikachu (and Pikachu only fainted because of Destiny Bond). I'd imagine that Dracovish & Sirfetch'd will score wins against Roserade & Milotic respectively and that Lucario will beat Togekiss & Garchomp.

Besides Pikachu & Lucario, I don't really see the others having an impressive enough track record to take on Leon. And I don't see Pikachu & Lucario being enough to carry Ash through a victory against Leon. Maybe if Leon allows Ash to use all 3 gimmicks he can have a chance.

Also doesn't help that the writers seem averse to letting Ash win 2 consecutive full battles in the same setting. Only exception was beating Katie and then Morrison in the Hoenn League. In that case, it's worth pointing out that Morrison basically gave Ash 2 free wins in that battle, making it a 6 vs 4 (and still almost beat Ash).

 

[Almighty Zard]

There's no problem with Leon being depicted as strong. The problem is that they have overdone it. It's an overkill. Leon has been portrayed as so strong to the point that Ash winning would make absolutely no sense. Realistically, Ash should be obliterated by Leon within one episode with the way the show has depicted Leon.

The problem i have this this line of thinking is, we've only seen his Charizard do most of the fighting for him, and even though Rilaboom took out most of Diantha's team, it's not hard to see why considering what it's move set was.

Drum Beating
Acrobatics
Knock off
High Horsepower

with moves like that all but her goodra (out of the four it battled and defeated) had it bad, but then again the writers haven't exactly portrayed Goodra in a "good" way since back in kalos, kind of like how people feel about Dragonite's recent treatment.

Alain still beat the thing despite it being dyna boosted with his Ace in one move, which simply proves Diantha didn't have a solid way of stopping the monkey as easily.

That can happen.

I'm not gonna say Ash is going to 100% win, but he still has a chance, we still don't even know what leon's other 3 are capable of, but if they are like his mediocre dragapult, then Rilbaoom and Charzard would be the only threats to Ash.

Cause thing is, if all of his pokemon were as unstoppable as his Charizard then yeah Ash wouldn't stand a chance, but that isn't the case from how I see it.

Of course I also know it's probably pointless to debate this, because I know how some feel about his JN's team and not wanting them to succeed where their favorite's failed.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Rillaboom likely got that rout exactly so it can be reasonably expected that it's going to take a few of Ash's mons out in its rampage.

Much like we don't think a handful of Diantha's Pokemon are as strong as Alain's Charizard, so too do many if all of us don't think all of Ash's squad are individually stronger than it.

Rillaboom's the second phase, as it were, to come after Alain's first Pokemon, and beating it prompts the final boss Charizard to come out and wrap it up. Ash is going to have to really revenge kill the thing, or beat it outright, for anyone to think Leon's going to be brought down 4.

 

[solrocknroll]

The powerscaling in this era is just weird and frontloaded which I think makes it tough to gauge strength. Rillaboom swept Diantha yet lost to Charizard?

They’ve basically made very obvious strength hierarchies where aces are infinitely stronger than other Pokémon in a way that honestly has never been the case before. Each trainer has like two Pokémon that are clear stars and the rest are all worse.

Ash - Pikachu & Lucario
Leon - Charizard & Rillaboom
Cynthia - Garchomp & Spiritomb
Diantha - Gardevoir & Tyrantrum
Steven - Metagross & Aggron but Cradily was good too honestly
Lance - Dragonite & Gyarados
Iris - Haxorus & Excadrill
Alain - Charizard & Chesnaught

All of these Pokémon can stand up to each other, while any other team member on these trainers’ teams are fair game to get swept up, which is a strange way of writing but I guess realistic that each ace is depicted as far above the competition.

 

[1rkhachatryan]

God I hope he loses, in fact Leon should do to Ash what he did to Alain and Diantha because Ash is clearly a moron and doesn't deserve to be at this level of competition with this trash ass team, just have him lose and let's end this damn saga smh.

 

[BlobbiBoi]

There's no problem with Leon being depicted as strong. The problem is that they have overdone it. It's an overkill. Leon has been portrayed as so strong to the point that Ash winning would make absolutely no sense. Realistically, Ash should be obliterated by Leon within one episode with the way the show has depicted Leon.

Idk how well I'm gonna explain this but the biggest issue I think I have with that (not your argument but the whole Leon mess as a whole) is that if Leon wasn't painted as an incredibly strong Champion - above the rest - he'd be viewed as just another opponent that Ash was likely to win against.

How do you quantify how well one Champion can beat another if they're all roughly comparable? I don't like the whole 'white room' idea where just because someone holds a position they all have a 100% equal chance of winning - some people are better than others; at least that's the most common fanon I've seen for why Cynthia is so strong specifically. Hell, even in the episode today she's clearly got an incredibly tactical mind.

So how do you make Leon do what Cynthia does and then some, while also putting him above her? There's no easy way to do it otherwise, in my eyes.

 

[Pteranodonte]

This is cope.

Nah, I just watched the episode.

 

[Sham]

Rillaboom sweeping Diantha’s team but losing against Alain can make sense. Cynthia’s slug was using completely different moves besides Muddy Water, Acid Armor and Rain Dance.

Clearly they’ve been training their Pokémon in the gaps in between the first and second round

Although it’s not realistic Ash is winning this

 

[Almighty Zard]

Rillaboom sweeping Diantha’s team but losing against Alain can make sense. Cynthia’s slug was using completely different moves besides Muddy Water, Acid Armor and Rain Dance.

Yeah and those moves got returned at it allowing Pikachu to defeat it seemingly easier than Excadrill did, maybe she should've stuck with her previous moves, it's not Pikachu can hurt it since it's a water/ground hybrid.

splashing water's not gonna work like a ground type who's not part water.

Although it’s not realistic Ash is winning this

I still think he has a chance, but winning isn't absolute.

let me just ask this though in your opinion what would it take for you to believe Ash could win "realistically"

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

If Ash has more than 2 Pokemon by the end, the episode's length wouldn't allow for 8 minutes of showing the league concluding quickly.

Assuming those 2 Pokemon can last long, of course.