• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Do you think SM Ash was a downgrade as a trainer?

Alolan Champion

Well-Known Member
Oh plz i am happy for his win but i am attacking you over your stupid claims about plot armor. I am happy he has wi=on the league. I would be happy if he wins the legue without any controversy.
I don’t know what to tell you but it was plot armor. You’re clearly delusional because you think a random form that wasn’t even foreshadowed or explained is okay compared to the 10M Z-Move that was not only seen in the games first but the Tapus was obviously upgrading his Z-Ring before he defeated the Milf Beast
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
I don’t know what to tell you but it was plot armor. You’re clearly delusional because you think a random form that wasn’t even foreshadowed or explained is okay compared to the 10M Z-Move that was not only seen in the games first but the Tapus was obviously upgrading his Z-Ring before he defeated the Milf Beast

Calling people delusional isn't gonna help. Geez guys stop the Series wars already No need to name call come on now. Be civil atleast.
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
So Lycanroc using a piece of Stone Edge to attack Incineroar, Rowlet using Feather Dance to escape the Solar Beam, and all the switching isn’t strategy? Now that’s hubris if I’ve ever seen it
I didn't mean final match as in the whole fight. I meant the VERY final match between aces. I remember all the crazy Frenzy Plant spam Sawyer tossed, and he's supposed to be the genius trainer. He really had NO strategy to deal with Ash's Greninja other than "let's hit him hard!"
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Yes I agree he wasn't pushed as much as in DP coz this wasn't a battle oriented series like DP. And what exactly has Sawyer done that you say gladion has done nothing compared to them ? Shown competency and participated in league battles? Well well. Gladion heck could properly easily defeat Sawyer. His only impressive Pokemon were Aegislash and mega sceptile which would pale in comparison to silvally and the tank lycanroc. Alain I agree with coz he had a whole special related to his battling agenda and him defeating a elite four member. Paul, eh people overrate Paul as a trainer. Sure he and Ash had the best rivalry yet and it was intense, but people tend to forget that Paul lost all his leagues prior to sinnoh just like ash, couldn't beat Brandon etc. Im not saying gladion is better than Paul, not at all, im just saying there is no concrete thing in the continuity to establish it as a fact. It thus stays as your opinion, others may have different opinions, respect that, civily debate if you want. No need to call names or insult a series or turn this into a XY vs SM war . Honestly I think this thread should be locked coz that's what it has become

No, gladin is not beating sawyer either, sawyer was given the biggest power boost of entire series (something i am not a fan of), his aegislash dominated pikachu and he had to used out of the box thinking to beat him, and his mega sceptile was able to go toe to toe with AG who itself is an E4 calibre pokemon and gave both mega gardevoir and MCX a very tough fight. On the other hand gladion have a hard time beating kiawe who is good but was still destroyed badly by brock even if it was sometimes ago, and ybf turtunator could have beaten silvally with z move had gladion not used the fire type disc. Regardless of paul who i think is overrated by fans, he was still first class tactician coming up with crazy ideas that gladion wasn't able to come up with, gladion is weake than all 3 of them.

I don’t know what to tell you but it was plot armor. You’re clearly delusional because you think a random form that wasn’t even foreshadowed or explained is okay compared to the 10M Z-Move that was not only seen in the games first but the Tapus was obviously upgrading his Z-Ring before he defeated the Milf Beast

It may be little unexplained but still ash did struggled with this new powerup and has to master it in time and lost some matches due to this, hnow compared to that he din't have any issue with mastering any z move even in his first attempt like he was doing it for ages, as for 10 MV it may have been seen in the games but we are talking about the anime and in the anime it is only shown twice whenever plot demands it and ash was losing in the match. You are clearly showing your ignorance and lack of common sense here.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
No, gladin is not beating sawyer either, sawyer was given the biggest power boost of entire series (something i am not a fan of), his aegislash dominated pikachu and he had to used out of the box thinking to beat him, and his mega sceptile was able to go toe to toe with AG who itself is an E4 calibre pokemon and gave both mega gardevoir and MCX a very tough fight. On the other hand gladion have a hard time beating kiawe who is good but was still destroyed badly by brock even if it was sometimes ago, and ybf turtunator could have beaten silvally with z move had gladion not used the fire type disc. Regardless of paul who i think is overrated by fans, he was still first class tactician coming up with crazy ideas that gladion wasn't able to come up with, gladion is weake than all 3 of them.



It may be little unexplained but still ash did struggled with this new powerup and has to master it in time and lost some matches due to this, hnow compared to that he din't have any issue with mastering any z move even in his first attempt like he was doing it for ages, as for 10 MV it may have been seen in the games but we are talking about the anime and in the anime it is only shown twice whenever plot demands it and ash was losing in the match. You are clearly showing your ignorance and lack of common sense here.

Like you said yourself Sawyer got a power boost out of nowhere, it isn't unimaginable to think gladion could beat him. Also again you're comparing two trainers based on which trainers they defeated over which time. You sure well know the shows continuity, this isn't a proper way to measure strength. In my opinion gladion would defeat Sawyer, gladion actually developed properly was shown his journey whereas Sawyer became competent out of nowhere. One of my major gripes with XY is the league. What I wish would have happened is that Sawyer would have lost 3 times that is every time to ash before the league. Ash would defeat Alain in the semi finals but finally lose to Sawyer in a well fought match till the end. I'm not mad that ash didn't win, I'm just mad how bs his loss was, how it didn't make sense how Charizard defeated Greninja and how ash Alain rivarly made no sense. Anyways I'm going off topic
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Like you said yourself Sawyer got a power boost out of nowhere, it isn't unimaginable to think gladion could beat him. Also again you're comparing two trainers based on which trainers they defeated over which time. You sure well know the shows continuity, this isn't a proper way to measure strength. In my opinion gladion would defeat Sawyer, gladion actually developed properly was shown his journey whereas Sawyer became competent out of nowhere. One of my major gripes with XY is the league. What I wish would have happened is that Sawyer would have lost 3 times that is every time to ash before the league. Ash would defeat Alain in the semi finals but finally lose to Sawyer in a well fought match till the end. I'm not mad that ash didn't win, I'm just mad how bs his loss was, how it didn't make sense how Charizard defeated Greninja and how ash Alain rivarly made no sense. Anyways I'm going off topic

Sawyer was from the start shown to be tactical an strategic, ash vs sawyer was basically a kind of out of box thinking vs copy book style trainer which was something new. what was the biggest issue there was sawyer was introduced so late and as a beginner which should have happened in the first 30 episodes of XY and then he became strong and progressed very soon just like wally in the remakes, i am saying that his team in the league was stronger than gladion's team especially his mega sceptile. Ina way ash vs sawyer mirrors drew vs may, where may was a beginner but came close to drew so much that he started panicking in kanto GF. As for alain, his charizard was just strong. Alain was brought in probably to give ash a trainer who would push him heavily in the series.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
I didn't mean final match as in the whole fight. I meant the VERY final match between aces. I remember all the crazy Frenzy Plant spam Sawyer tossed, and he's supposed to be the genius trainer. He really had NO strategy to deal with Ash's Greninja other than "let's hit him hard!"
To be fair of any one of those connected it would've been an instant KO. He's lucky this isn't the games or Mega Sceptile would've been a crippled mess who couldn't move after all those LEAFU STROMU and HARDO PLANTOs
 
Are people still parroting the idiocy that there wasn't any strategy in the Ash v Sawyer match?

- Uh maybe when Sawyer used Slaking to literally use Hawlucha's battling style against him?
- Maybe when Saywer used targeted Aqua Jet to literally follow and keep with Talonflame?
- Sawyer using ice beam to slow Talonflame down just a notch to take him down?
- Ash telling Pikachu to use the forest for cover
- After Clawitzer grabbed Pikachu by the tail and used water pulse, Ash and Pikachu use electro ball to counteract that
- Sawyer with Aeigslash destroying the forest that Pikachu used as cover
- Sawyer putting Pikachu and Ash in a tough spot with King's Shield, a move that lowered Pikachu's attack
- And of course, the absolute genius log strategy, both using the logs as a means for easy movement and as a way to counter King's Shield
- Use of Noivern's sense of smell to attack through smoke
- Saywer's use of Slurpuff's sense of smell to attack through smoke
- Use of targeted Frenzy Plant against both Pikachu and AG to cut their agility and push them back(Shauna literally said AG was under pressure because of this and how they couldn't close the distance to do the close combat blitzing AG is known for)
- AG using Double Team for cover to use Water Shuriken

And lmao at the fact that Gladion can somehow beat Saywer.

Please, Sawyer's MS was able to battle with AG, a Pokemon that took Diantha's Gardevoir and Alain's MCX to their limits. Aeigslash gave Pikachu a sh*t ton of trouble. Those are two of Ash's strongest Pokemon

Unless Gladion has feats of that level that I'm unable to remember, Gladion is certainly not beating Sawyer.
 
Last edited:

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
And lmao at the fact that Gladion can somehow beat Saywer.

Please, Sawyer's MS was able to battle with AG, a Pokemon that took Diantha's Gardevoir and Alain's MCX to their limits. Aeigslash gave Pikachu a sh*t ton of trouble. Those are two of Ash's strongest Pokemon

Unless Gladion has feats of that level that I'm unable to remember, Gladion is certainly not beating Sawyer.

MS pushed AG to the limits. Yeah no. AG was completely dominating MS till the end. Also I love how people overestimate that diantha battle. AG did not come close to defeating her MG please. And like I said comparing a characters strength with another by this way is freaking flawed with regards to the animes continuity. Pikachu power scale is always unreliable and Aegislash did not give Pikachu that a hard time as you people like to say lol. You overestimate everything. I can easily see tank lycanroc and silvally beating MS and Aegislash. If the writers want gladion to defeat Sawyer, he can but it can also be believable. Stop overhyping Sawyer lol. Atleast gladion power scale was consistent and he was shown growing unlike Sawyer who suddenly increased in power scale too much it's unbelievable lol. But you do you
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Gladion is not beating sawyer whether people like it or not, even if his growth was exponential sawyer was shown to be analyst who could analyse any trainers weak point quickly, gladion was never shown to be tactician of that calibre, and tbf gladion's silvally hasn't shown any feat that could be considered extraordinary unlike mega sceptile who actually was even gaining an upper hand over AG easily an E4 level pokemon. Besides if gladion was really that strong trainer he would have swept kiawe easily who while being good hasn't really battled that much. Gladion could be made to beat sawyer but he wont beat his sceptile.
 
MS pushed AG to the limits. Yeah no. AG was completely dominating MS till the end. Also I love how people overestimate that diantha battle. AG did not come close to defeating her MG please. And like I said comparing a characters strength with another by this way is freaking flawed with regards to the animes continuity. Pikachu power scale is always unreliable and Aegislash did not give Pikachu that a hard time as you people like to say lol. You overestimate everything. I can easily see tank lycanroc and silvally beating MS and Aegislash. If the writers want gladion to defeat Sawyer, he can but it can also be believable. Stop overhyping Sawyer lol. Atleast gladion power scale was consistent and he was shown growing unlike Sawyer who suddenly increased in power scale too much it's unbelievable lol. But you do you


Oh yes, look at this domination. Did we watch the same battle? It's clear that AG is stronger than MS for sure 100% and Saywer wasn't going to win, but there was no " domination " and it was a great fight because Saywer knew exactly how to fight

AG was put on its back feet due to Sawyer constantly pushing it back with Frenzy Plant and Leaf Storm.

AG literally swept MG off its feet. That's a mega-evolved Champion Ace. That's not overestimation. That's one of Ash's best feats right there. AG took so much out of MG that Diantha literally proclaimed " that was too much wasn't it " along those lines after also having to deal with Team Rocket right after battling AG

I'm not one to throw all reasonable debate out the window because people say " it's just a kids show! " and " there's no continuity at all " so we can't discuss comparisons

Pikachu's power scale was pretty damn consistent in XY. He never lost to jobbers and was constantly portrayed as Ash's second strongest Pokemon taking down two of Alain's Pokemon and one of them being Metagross which was strong itself, as well as beating Mega Lucario as examples of his many feats in XY
 
Last edited:

Lunanight

Well-Known Member
I didn't mean final match as in the whole fight. I meant the VERY final match between aces. I remember all the crazy Frenzy Plant spam Sawyer tossed, and he's supposed to be the genius trainer. He really had NO strategy to deal with Ash's Greninja other than "let's hit him hard!"

Many people forget just how big the strength gap between Ash-Greninja and Mega Sceptile really was; Ash-Greninja was significantly stronger than Mega Sceptile despite the type disadvantage. Remember that Mega Sceptile was on-par with an E4 base ace, whereas Ash-Greninja was on-par with an E4 Mega Ace (albeit still weaker than MCX who was even stronger). Sure, Ash-Greninja didn't dominate Mega Sceptile, but Ash-Greninja was never at risk of actually losing that battle (unlike say, Infernape vs Electivire which was much more evenly matched by comparison).

The reason that Ash didn't use much strategy against Mega Sceptile (aside charging the massive Water Shuriken) was because he didn't need to, since Ash-Greninja was much stronger than Mega Sceptile. So Ash didn't need to use strategy to beat Mega Sceptile, just as Paul didn't need strategy to sweep Barry 3-0. At a certain point, strategy becomes worthless compared to raw power. For example, no amount of "strategy" would allow someone like Barry to defeat Paul's Electivire in a 3v3 battle. The power gap is just too big.

Even in the Ash vs Sawyer battle, most of the strategy came from Sawyer because he needed strategy to try and make up for his inexperience as a trainer compared to XY Ash. Especially when it came to Pikachu and Greninja, let alone Ash-Greninja. Ash's most notable strategy in that battle was Pikachu vs Aegislash, and that was because Pikachu was at a disadvantage despite being stronger in terms of raw strength. Ash couldn't just brute force his way through Aegislash because of King's Shield.

A slightly similar thing happened in the Ash vs Paul battle (albeit far less because Paul was far more experienced than Sawyer), the main strategies used were mostly by whoever was at a disadvantage in the moment. The main exception being Paul's tactical use of using Aggron and Gastrodon as scouts, but aside from just using Toxic Spikes, Paul never used strategy with Drapion. Why? Because Drapion could sweep half of the DP team, not including Pikachu or Infernape. Paul never needed strategy to sweep Buizel, Staraptor, and Torterra because Drapion was far stronger than them.

Paul's actual main strategies came involving Gastrodon, Ninjask, and Froslass. Gastrodon was one of the two scouts baiting out Ash's team, while Ninjask and Froslass had to fight opponent's much stronger than themselves (Infernape and Pikachu respectively) so Paul needed strategy to make up for being at a disadvantage power-wise. Why? Because we all know Paul's Froslass had no chance in hell of beating Pikachu in a clash of raw power, so Paul tried to make use of Froslass' Snow Cloak and Hail to wear Pikachu down to make up for the strength gap. Yet as Ash proved against both Paul and Sawyer, being strategic can only get you so far. Even with Sawyer's Slaking, Ash did so much damage that it couldn't recover it all off and it allowed Talonflame to beat it, showing that just using brute force is usually the best strategy of all.

Just because people want to overrate SM doesn't change the fact that Ash was OBJECTIVELY a far more competent trainer in DP and XY, as well as the BF. Even the Kahuna were weaker than the gym leaders, hence Brock using his non-ace Sudowoodo against Olivia's ace. Anyone who unironically thinks that Gladion is in the same league as Paul or Sawyer is just objectively wrong. Gladion only really looks strong compared to SM Ash, and all the weak trainers who entered the Alola League (i.e. everyone who wasn't Ash/Gladion/Kiawe/Guzma).

It doesn't help that Gladion's tank Lycanroc lost to Kiawe's Turtonator which, while a pretty decent Pokemon compared to other companion aces, is the same Pokemon that lost to Brock's Mega Steelix... and this isn't even mentioning the fact that base Steelix took a super-effective Z-Move (albeit took considerable damage and Brock praised the attack). Granted, Kiawe obviously trained between that battle and the League, but I doubt it got that much stronger given Kiawe wasn't doing the Island Trials like Ash and Gladion (so his team got much less experience than Ash/Gladion's Pokemon).

But considering that Kiawe beat Olivia despite being at a major disadvantage, yet lost to Brock despite having a major advantage over him, it reinforces the fact that Olivia's Lycanroc would have lost pretty easily to Brock's base Steelix if they fought. The fact that Gladion's Lycanroc lost to Kiawe's Turtonator goes to show that Gladion was overrated, and that Kiawe was actually underrated. I don't think many will disagree when I say Kiawe was a much better rival to Ash than Hau ever was, despite the fact Kiawe was never really written as a rival (whereas Hau is a rival in the games like Gladion).
 
Last edited:
Many people forget just how big the strength gap between Ash-Greninja and Mega Sceptile really was; Ash-Greninja was significantly stronger than Mega Sceptile despite the type disadvantage. Remember that Mega Sceptile was on-par with an E4 base ace, whereas Ash-Greninja was on-par with an E4 Mega Ace (albeit still weaker than MCX who was even stronger). The reason that Ash didn't use much strategy against Mega Sceptile (aside charging the massive Water Shuriken) was because he didn't need to, since Ash-Greninja was much stronger than Mega Sceptile. So Ash didn't need to use strategy to beat Mega Sceptile, just as Paul didn't need strategy to sweep Barry 3-0. At a certain point, strategy becomes worthless compared to raw power. For example, no amount of "strategy" would allow someone like Barry to defeat Paul's Electivire in a 3v3 battle. The power gap is just too big.

Even in the Ash vs Sawyer battle, most of the strategy came from Sawyer because he needed strategy to try and make up for his inexperience as a trainer compared to XY Ash. Especially when it came to Pikachu and Greninja, let alone Ash-Greninja. Ash's most notable strategy in that battle was Pikachu vs Aegislash, and that was because Pikachu was at a disadvantage despite being stronger in terms of raw strength. Ash couldn't just brute force his way through Aegislash because of King's Shield.

A slightly similar thing happened in the Ash vs Paul battle (albeit far less because Paul was far more experienced than Sawyer), the main strategies used were mostly by whoever was at a disadvantage in the moment. The main exception being Paul's tactical use of using Aggron and Gastrodon as scouts, but aside from just using Toxic Spikes, Paul never used strategy with Drapion. Why? Because Drapion could sweep half of the DP team, not including Pikachu or Infernape. Paul never needed strategy to sweep Buizel, Staraptor, and Torterra because Drapion was far stronger than them.

Paul's actual main strategies came involving Gastrodon, Ninjask, and Froslass. Gastrodon was one of the two scouts baiting out Ash's team, while Ninjask and Froslass had to fight opponent's much stronger than themselves (Infernape and Pikachu respectively) so Paul needed strategy to make up for being at a disadvantage power-wise. Why? Because we all know Paul's Froslass had no chance in hell of beating Pikachu in a clash of raw power, so Paul tried to make use of Froslass' Snow Cloak and Hail to wear Pikachu down to make up for the strength gap. Yet as Ash proved against both Paul and Sawyer, being strategic can only get you so far. Even with Sawyer's Slaking, Ash did so much damage that it couldn't recover it all off and it allowed Talonflame to beat it, showing that just using brute force is usually the best strategy of all.

Just because people want to overrate SM doesn't change the fact that Ash was OBJECTIVELY a far more competent trainer in DP and XY, as well as the BF. Even the Kahuna were weaker than the gym leaders, hence Brock using his non-ace Sudowoodo against Olivia's ace. Anyone who unironically thinks that Gladion is in the same league as Paul or Sawyer is just objectively wrong. Gladion only really looks strong compared to SM Ash, and all the weak trainers who entered the Alola League (i.e. everyone who wasn't Ash/Gladion/Kiawe/Guzma).

It doesn't help that Gladion's tank Lycanroc lost to Kiawe's Turtonator which, while a pretty decent Pokemon compared to other companion aces, is the same Pokemon that lost to Brock's Mega Steelix... and this isn't even mentioning the fact that base Steelix took a super-effective Z-Move (albeit took considerable damage and Brock praised the attack). Granted, Kiawe obviously trained between that battle and the League, but I doubt it got that much stronger given Kiawe wasn't doing the Island Trials like Ash and Gladion (so his team got much less experience than Ash/Gladion's Pokemon).

But considering that Kiawe beat Olivia despite being at a major disadvantage, yet lost to Brock despite having a major advantage over him, it reinforces the fact that Olivia's Lycanroc would have lost pretty easily to Brock's base Steelix if they fought. The fact that Gladion's Lycanroc lost to Kiawe's Turtonator goes to show that Gladion was overrated, and that Kiawe was actually underrated. I don't think many will disagree when I say Kiawe was a much better rival to Ash than Hau ever was, despite the fact Kiawe was never really written as a rival (whereas Hau is a rival in the games like Gladion).

Would you say it was a domination? Cause I would disagree with that

While I agree that AG is stronger than MS, I can't say there was domination due to Saywer's superior tactics in the battle. In terms of firepower there's definitely a clear disparity, but taking into account that MS did give AG a tough match, Sawyer deserves credit for that
 

Alolan Champion

Well-Known Member
I didn't mean final match as in the whole fight. I meant the VERY final match between aces. I remember all the crazy Frenzy Plant spam Sawyer tossed, and he's supposed to be the genius trainer. He really had NO strategy to deal with Ash's Greninja other than "let's hit him hard!"
You haven’t seen the battle yet
 

Lunanight

Well-Known Member
Would you say it was a domination? Cause I would disagree with that

While I agree that AG is stronger than MS, I can't say there was domination due to Saywer's superior tactics in the battle. In terms of firepower there's definitely a clear disparity, but taking into account that MS did give AG a tough match, Sawyer deserves credit for that

I agree that AG never dominated MS, given the fact that MS was still capable of landing a few strong hits back. To me, a domination would at least be what Paul's Electivire did to Barry's Empoleon or what Sawyer's Sceptile did to Tierno's Blastoise+Raichu. In both cases, neither Empoleon nor Blastoise+Raichu could even hit Electivire or Sceptile once, let alone do any notable damage whatsoever.

Yet even if AG never dominated MS, it never felt like AG was in danger of losing to MS, like how Infernape was against Electivire (almost fainted pre-Blaze; on the verge of collapsing after winning), or Tyson's Meowth was against Hoenn League Pikachu (almost fainted when Pikachu did). Even AG vs Alain's MCX was more back-and-forth whereby it seemed plausable that AG had a reasonable chance of actually beating MCX. By comparison, I never once thought that MS had any chance of beating AG. Granted, MS did surprisingly well given how much stronger AG was overall, but as impressive as MS was, I don't think it pushed AG nearly as hard as AG pushed MCX.

I'd say AG vs MS was more comparable to something like Paul's Ursaring vs Barry's Hitmonlee. Barry put up a good fight and had Hitmonlee land several hits, but even before Guts was activated, it just never seemed like Ursaring was at risk of losing to Hitmonlee. To use an example from SM, AG vs MS was more like Kiawe's Turtonator vs Brock's Mega Steelix. After being hit by a super-effective Z-Move, base Steelix was clearly heavily damage and Brock praised the attack before Mega Evolving it. It shows that even if Mega Steelix was never in danger of being defeated, it shows that base Steelix would have likely lost to Turtonator. It also showed that Kiawe's Turtonator with a Z-Move was at least on-par with most gym leader's base ace Pokemon, if not slightly stronger.
 

BlueDragonfangirl

Well-Known Member
In my opinion Sun and Moon Ash is a down grade from XY Ash. But at least Sun and Moon Ash isn't on BW Ash leavel, too bad I dislike Sun and Moon Ash design, it takes away from that.
 

k6666

Pikachu Fan
Lol how was he a upgrade over XY, kahuna are weaker than gym leaders,ash always struggled in the first gym, but still he bossed other gym leaders like clemont's electric terrain or alerie's trick room pretty easily, that's something he was never able to do in alola. Also viola would have beaten hala she is a bug type leader who has advantage over fighing type tainers like hala and hala is probably the stongest trial kahunas overall. He was shown laid back for 100 episodes, that's why he wasn't interested to do trials unlike in earlier series where he was obsessed with gym battle.
.
He need goodra who gifted imo ( evolution in short span episode 2 battle with team rocket and fight a wild grumping is not much experience tbh to suddenly evolve to sligoo, and evolve in own rain dance) to handled the electric field and pull x-scizzor out of nowhere to be boss
And what fact do you have with kahuna being weaker than gym leader, brock didn't beat Olivia? He give her good fight but no resolution what so ever, it does not imply they weak , there no struggle in Olivia side
And this XY ash is struggle battle on ice field despite he already experienced so many battle with ice field in DP and BW , so much experience he have

Yeah he is being laidback but he still finish all the trial, if he didn't have motivation he would just stick with classmate and wait when they go to ula ula but he ditch them travel there alone to do the trial that show he still focus to improve himself
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think ALL series have their lethargic moments battle wise, just some like DP and XY reach a higher level at their very best. Even in those you get cases like Ash struggling against Team Rocket's Yanmega or Inkay because spamming Thunderbolt didn't work. The battle quality is never consistent a whole series because choreographing 140+ episodes with battles that always brilliantly show off a character's skill is impossible.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!

Oh yes, look at this domination. Did we watch the same battle? It's clear that AG is stronger than MS for sure 100% and Saywer wasn't going to win, but there was no " domination " and it was a great fight because Saywer knew exactly how to fight

AG was put on its back feet due to Sawyer constantly pushing it back with Frenzy Plant and Leaf Storm.

AG literally swept MG off its feet. That's a mega-evolved Champion Ace. That's not overestimation. That's one of Ash's best feats right there. AG took so much out of MG that Diantha literally proclaimed " that was too much wasn't it " along those lines after also having to deal with Team Rocket right after battling AG

I'm not one to throw all reasonable debate out the window because people say " it's just a kids show! " and " there's no continuity at all " so we can't discuss comparisons

Pikachu's power scale was pretty damn consistent in XY. He never lost to jobbers and was constantly portrayed as Ash's second strongest Pokemon taking down two of Alain's Pokemon and one of them being Metagross which was strong itself, as well as beating Mega Lucario as examples of his many feats in XY
Pikachu wasn't really treated that well between the Korrina and Wulfric gym fights (for example: getting thrashed by Barbaracle and outperformed by a newly evolved Frogadier, doing little to no damage against Luxray, or being completely helpless during the fight against the Bisharp ninja guy), he may not have lost to jobbers, but he wasn't kicking ass left and right like he did from when Ash arrived in Kalos until Korrina/after Wulfric.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Pikachu wasn't really treated that well between the Korrina and Wulfric gym fights (for example: getting thrashed by Barbaracle and outperformed by a newly evolved Frogadier, doing little to no damage against Luxray, or being completely helpless during the fight against the Bisharp ninja guy), he may not have lost to jobbers, but he wasn't kicking ass left and right like he did from when Ash arrived in Kalos until Korrina/after Wulfric.

Funnily enough he was getting "Worfed" by Team Rocket more often as well. The Pokeball factory episode for example was the first ever time Meowth actually successfully landed an attack on Pikachu in a single stroke battle (the same scenario Litten didn't even flinch from), while Eevee's debut had him struggling against James' Inkay, while even Serena's Pokemon were dominating Jessie's.

The thing is that Pikachu is also the go to guy to knock down whenever they want anything to look like a challenge, even when they lazily let another Pokemon clean sweep the situation afterwards.
 
Top