Do you think SM Ash was a downgrade as a trainer?

[DatsRight]

I think in terms of plot armour moments, SM's were more exaggerated but less frequent. As in Ash got bigger handouts like mythicals, Ultra Beasts and a Z Ring pretty much walk right to him, but we seen more evident subversions. Ash actually trained rather frequently in SM for example, and not just in a bare 'two seconds of spamming attacks in the air' sort of way to just say he'd been working we often see in other series, we saw Ash put a lot of his own eccentricity and agency into training and using it to effectively learn new moves and boosts. Most of his evolutions were story influenced as well, caused more by the biology of the Pokemon rather than a DEM to let him crush the current opposition. And while he kinda got special treatment with the Z Ring/Crystals, we did see him training to use them properly.

Naganadel is pretty much the biggest exception right now, he hasn't done much of anything to earn it or it's power boost.

 

[Lunanight]

His BF version is overrated, his XY version is terrible, and his DP version was pretty great when it mattered. But his SM version is definitely the second best in terms of being a competent battler behind the DP version.

It’s like you guys forgot that he swept the Kahunas, won the league, and is now on par with a Champion.

Yes, he swept the Kahunas because they are OBJECTIVELY weaker than gym leaders. Why? Because you're comparing the Kahuna with their Z-Moves to the Gym Leaders and their non-mega Pokemon. Brock's base Steelix is stronger than Olivia's Lycanroc with its Z-Move. Kiawe beat her despite having a type disadvantage, yet lost to Brock the moment he Mega Evolved his Steelix. Even when Brock battled Olivia, he used Sudowoodo rather than Steelix because both know fully well that base Steelix would sweep Olivia's Lycanroc despite its Z-Move, given that Olivia is weaker than Kiawe who brock beat at a disadvantage.

Also, how can you think BF Ash was overrated and XY Ash was a terrible trainer when both are far more competent than SM Ash. In terms of competence: XY Ash > DP Ash > BF Ash > AG Ash > Johto Ash > SM Ash > BW Ash > Kanto Ash.

What you don't understand is that SM Ash swept the Kahuna because they are weaker than Gym Leaders. A big reason why DP Ash lost a lot despite being highly competent was because the DP gym leaders were significantly more challenging than the Kahuna. Do you unironcially think SM Ash without using Z-Moves could beat someone like Volkner or Wulfric (with or without Mega Evolution), or even merely Juan? This isn't even getting into the likes of Paul, Sawyer (without Mega Evolution), Tobias (with or without Latios), or Alain (without Mega Evolution) who would absolutely dominate SM Ash.

Paul's League team (which is a significantly weaker team than Paul's actual best team of six) would demolish SM Ash 6-3 at very worst, and that's accounting for Paul sacrificing Aggron+Gastrodon. That's generous given that if Paul led with Drapion and sent out Electivire second, he'd sweep SM Ash 6-1 (assuming SM Ash sent out his Pokemon from strongest-to-weakest). The only way SM Ash could put up a decent fight is if he was allowed to use a Z-Move with each of his Pokemon (for a total of 6 Z-Moves). In this case, Paul would still win pretty decisively despite giving SM Ash a huge handicap in his favour.

Also, Kukui is not a Champion. Even if he were in the anime, that title would be irrelevant given Kukui founded the Alola League and had no qualifications to it. Kukui's skill as a trainer was irrelevant when creating the Alola League, since he was a Pokemon Professor. You also forget that the games and anime are separate, otherwise Acerola wouldn't be getting beaten by Kiawe, let alone Kahilli losing in the Battle Royal like all the other fodder trainers. Hell, even in the games where Kukui was a more competent trainer, he lost to Lance who was an E4 member at that time.

Even in the games, Kukui was never Champion-level. In the anime? Kukui's Incineroar never demonstrated any feat that couldn't be easily replicated by even the weakest of Frontier Brains. You seem to think that Kukui must be particularly strong, when in truth Kukui in the anime is significantly weaker than Brandon (and gets steamrolled without a Z-Move), and would probably struggle against some of the lesser Frontier Brains too. It could just simply be that Kukui was vastly overrated, and that Gladion (and arguably SM Ash too) was already a better trainer than him.

 

[Alolan Champion]

Also, how can you think BF Ash was overrated and XY Ash was a terrible trainer when both are far more competent than SM Ash. In terms of competence: XY Ash > DP Ash > BF Ash > AG Ash > Johto Ash > SM Ash > BW Ash > Kanto Ash.

BF Ash was overrated because he used his best Pokémon so of course he would have a decent showing at the time. XY Ash is terrible because the stars and planets have to align just for him to get a win and he underutilizes his team. Breaking Trick Room and misusing Rain Dance clearly proves this

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

What happened then? Give me proof you saw all of it

I'm not going to recap the whole thing, so I'll just bring up the point everyone surely remembers.

Sawyer was bawling desperately for Mega Sceptile to beat Ash-Greninja, who was dodging all the Frenzy Plant attacks before getting finished off.

 

[Alolan Champion]

I'm not going to recap the whole thing, so I'll just bring up the point everyone surely remembers.

Sawyer was bawling desperately for Mega Sceptile to beat Ash-Greninja, who was dodging all the Frenzy Plant attacks before getting finished off.

I was obviously referring to the battle this week

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

I was obviously referring to the battle this week

No, you weren't. Your reply either meant the battle we haven't seen or the example I gave. You weren't being clear as to which one. And given your toxic attitude to others so far, you were talking about my sample.

As for this week's battle, the apparent final shot is the cats in a hellfire about to clash. That's basically brute force without strategy.

 

[Lunanight]

BF Ash was overrated because he used his best Pokémon so of course he would have a decent showing at the time. XY Ash is terrible because the stars and planets have to align just for him to get a win and he underutilizes his team. Breaking Trick Room and misusing Rain Dance clearly proves this

You do realise when I say BF Ash, I am literally referring to the Hoenn team during BF, right? Why would I be considering reserves when BF Ash is literally just the Hoenn League team but its significantly stronger. When people talk about BF Ash, they are almost always just talking about the Hoenn team.

• BF Pikachu was significantly stronger than HL Swellow, as proven by the former's fight with Lucy's Milotic. Let alone its later battle with Regice.
• Sceptile was easily the second-strongest Pokemon Ash had during BF after Charizard.
• Swellow was already Ash's strongest regional bird back in the Hoenn League (and still even now), and only got stronger during BF
• Glalie wasn't used in BF but its perfomance in the Hoenn League was significantly better than 4/6 of the DP team Pokemon.
• Corphish improved significantly, and got to fight two Frontier Brains and did decently.
• Torkoal's fight against Registeel showed how much it improved compared to the Hoenn League, since Torkoal wouldn't have nearly as well pre-BF.

When I say that DP Ash was more competent than BF Ash, that is almost entirely due to having to deal with Paul's strategies and also the fact that Peakachu and Infernape arguably carried his team like crutches. If I were to place them on a tier, it would look something like this:

• BF Ash: Pikachu (S), Sceptile (S), Swellow (B+), Glalie (B), Corphish (C+), Torkoal (C)
• DP Ash: Pikachu (S vs Paul; SS vs Tobias), Infernape (S), Gliscor (B-), Torterra (C+), Buizel (C), Staraptor (C-)

Even though DP Pikachu at its very peak was around E4 ace level against Tobias' Latios, and Infernape was around BF Sceptile's level... Glalie outclasses 4/6 of the DP team in a 1v1 battle, and Glalie isn't even the third strongest on the BF team. Of the aforementioned 4/6 DP team Pokemon, Swellow could beat any two of them back-to-back. Glalie could probably beat two of them as well given that both Torterra and Gliscor are 4x weak to Ice, and Staraptor is much weaker than Glalie to pose much of a challenge by itself.

Would the DP team beat the BF team? Obviously yes, given DP Pikachu was E4 ace level against Tobias, but that speaks more to how strong DP Pikachu was rather than the team overall. People sometime like to say that XY Ash overrelied on Greninja and Pikachu, but DP Ash relied on Pikachu and Infernape far, far more. The only Pokemon on the DP team that can sweep 2+ Pokemon against BF Ash are Pikachu and Infernape; meanwhile BF Pikachu, Sceptile, Swellow, and Glalie are all capable of sweeping 2+ Pokemon against DP Ash.

Also, I love how people come out of the woodwork acting like SM Ash was this competent trainer, yet I'm sure a lot of those same people didn't like SM Ash from the very beginning until he won that joke of a League; bandwagoning at its finest. If Ash had lost to Gladion, nobody would put SM on any pedestal, let alone unironically think SM Ash even remotely compares to DP/XY/BF Ash, or even merely AG Ash for that matter. The same SM Ash who never had 6 Pokemon on the regional team until the Kukui battle? The same SM Ash who needs 2 Mythicals just to hold his own against Kukui, who isn't even Frontier Brain level? The same SM Ash who would get dominated by Paul's watered-down Sinnoh League team (especially without Z-Moves)?

TL;DR: BF Ash's team overall is significantly stronger than DP Ash, especially if we are counting the DP team as it was against Paul. In fact, Ash's Hoenn team during both AG and BF is pretty underrated compared to DP/XY. Nobody unironically believed SM Ash was remotely competent until he won the Alola League.

 

[Alolan Champion]

No, you weren't. Your reply either meant the battle we haven't seen or the example I gave. You weren't being clear as to which one. And given your toxic attitude to others so far, you were talking about my sample.

As for this week's battle, the apparent final shot is the cats in a hellfire about to clash. That's basically brute force without strategy.

Why would I ask you about a battle that was done 6 years ago? Stop trolling

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Why would I ask you about a battle that was done 6 years ago? Stop trolling

Because the initial response you gave was wide open for interpretation and didn't clearly state to which thing was referring to. You have the option to cordially say, "Sorry, my bad. I should have been clearer."

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

TL;DR: BF Ash's team overall is significantly stronger than DP Ash, especially if we are counting the DP team as it was against Paul. In fact, Ash's Hoenn team during both AG and BF is pretty underrated compared to DP/XY. Nobody unironically believed SM Ash was remotely competent until he won the Alola League.

Yeah no he was shown competent before winning the league too. He was more goofy yes but he was never shown to be incompetent. From his first trial to his league battles he never was incompetent. Yes I agree some people did jump on the bandwagon but stop fricking generalising lol.

 

[Zoruagible]

BF Ash overrated? lmao
That's the one and only time Ash has beaten legitimately powerful opponents, there's a reason that that series was his best accomplishment. Ash beating a League is nothing compared to them, especially as there were only four skilled trainers(Ilima, Kiawe, Gladion, Guzma) in the League and Ash only battled two of them! Brandon is literally the most powerful and skilled trainer that Ash has battled, until he's battled an E4 member(officially) that ain't changing. Winning a League is just like winning a tournament, what comes after is what we all want to see.

Plus any attempt at saying SM Ash is better for winning is laughable for the sheer matter of him only needing one Pokemon per round until Guzma and Gladion. And even then there wasn't a full battle. I just hope he gets to win again and they don't go back to making him lose, him winning a League never meant it was all over. Had they let Ash win DP, only for Aaron or Flint to destroy his team that would have shown he still has quite a way to go until he becomes a Pokemon Master. If he can't beat them then he obviously can't beat Cynthia! Then (assuming the whole incident didn't happen) Team Plasma attacks the League, Ash can't fight the Elite Four this time as they're busy chasing down the Sages. But Ash did battle Ghetsis. The show continues~ I hope the days of him losing Leagues is behind him. I'd love for Ash to be able to prove himself against an Elite Four member, actually have an official battle with fun instead of a curbstomb 'fun' battle like with Drake and Agatha. I don't expect him to win, but he still can put up a good fight and come close! Then maybe next series he can actually beat one, only to wind up losing to the next one.
All winning did was make idiots and clickbait writers think Ash is magically a 'Pokemon master' even though he's miles off. Granted the fact Alola doesn't have a E4 or Champion for him to battle probably didn't help with that matter... if being 'champion' was enough, Ash was a Pokemon master for over 20 years! I'm glad they let Ash have the title, the protagonist of SM/USM became the first champion so it was only fitting that Ash did as well.

SM Ash is a downgrade compared to AG and DP. But he's better than BW and OS skillwise
I may not like SM a lot, but I do like that it killed off two stupid 'rules'.
1. 'Ash can't own a legendary, they're too OP!' *points at Melmetal* It lose it's first battle as a fully evolved Pokemon! lol At least it got a win though. But see? Ash owns a legendary and the world didn't end! I'm glad this nonsense of the cast not being able to own legendaries is over, I hope that crosses over and Ash gets one of the Galar mythicals(Or Victini but that's more wishful thinking on my part lol)
2. 'Ash can't win a league' He did, there. He's not suddenly an OP unstoppable edgelord like fanfic writers make him, I'm glad they acknowledge he still has awhile to go. Even if the show doesn't... but I hope it does, we'll see.

 

[Xeogran]

This thread didn't age well after his today's badass performance.

 

[J.Agera]

This thread didn't age well after his today's badass performance.

It was so good lol.
Anyways it still Dosen't push him beyond BF Ash yet.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

This thread didn't age well after his today's badass performance.

Battle was pretty good, but sadly, SM isn't that hot about battles unlike previous instances. There is also the fact Ash didn't train the last two of his team members. Though I give the kid some merit for using one of them well.

One battle does not redeem the whole thing, is what I'm saying.

 

[DatsRight]

I may not like SM a lot, but I do like that it killed off two stupid 'rules'.
1. 'Ash can't own a legendary, they're too OP!' *points at Melmetal* It lose it's first battle as a fully evolved Pokemon! lol At least it got a win though. But see? Ash owns a legendary and the world didn't end! I'm glad this nonsense of the cast not being able to own legendaries is over, I hope that crosses over and Ash gets one of the Galar mythicals(Or Victini but that's more wishful thinking on my part lol)
2. 'Ash can't win a league' He did, there. He's not suddenly an OP unstoppable edgelord like fanfic writers make him, I'm glad they acknowledge he still has awhile to go. Even if the show doesn't... but I hope it does, we'll see.

True I like they've had Ash break some taboos and make some sort of actual progression as a trainer while making clear the world is still turning. Ash is still goofy and fallible, and people are still contesting there are many trainers still stronger than him currently. Melmetal and Naganadel will also most likely be remembered more as adorkable powerhouses than OP demi-gods Ash had under his helm (plus they were tactical in letting the far less battle involved Mallow get a Shaymin, who again is hardly a story breaker). It is a bit glaring that Ash didn't really train Naganadel at all to earn that extra power though, though at least they focus on Ash using it competently.

I think the focus on characterisation primarily was SM's saving grace in this regard, having the prestige and power of these plot points be a far more fleeting detail. It's sort of like if Ash caught a Moltres in the OS, and the focus was on what a big silly lug it was among its team mates, oh but it also happened to be reasonably powerful.

I feel like that exchange with Gladion, them actually lampshading how unusually bestowed Ash is and Ash just sort of not knowing the answer himself and just breaking the conversation in his usual way sort of epitomises this, they don't want Ash to revolve around his special treatment.

 

[mehmeh1]

Yes, he swept the Kahunas because they are OBJECTIVELY weaker than gym leaders. Why? Because you're comparing the Kahuna with their Z-Moves to the Gym Leaders and their non-mega Pokemon. Brock's base Steelix is stronger than Olivia's Lycanroc with its Z-Move. Kiawe beat her despite having a type disadvantage, yet lost to Brock the moment he Mega Evolved his Steelix. Even when Brock battled Olivia, he used Sudowoodo rather than Steelix because both know fully well that base Steelix would sweep Olivia's Lycanroc despite its Z-Move, given that Olivia is weaker than Kiawe who brock beat at a disadvantage.

Also, how can you think BF Ash was overrated and XY Ash was a terrible trainer when both are far more competent than SM Ash. In terms of competence: XY Ash > DP Ash > BF Ash > AG Ash > Johto Ash > SM Ash > BW Ash > Kanto Ash.

What you don't understand is that SM Ash swept the Kahuna because they are weaker than Gym Leaders. A big reason why DP Ash lost a lot despite being highly competent was because the DP gym leaders were significantly more challenging than the Kahuna. Do you unironcially think SM Ash without using Z-Moves could beat someone like Volkner or Wulfric (with or without Mega Evolution), or even merely Juan? This isn't even getting into the likes of Paul, Sawyer (without Mega Evolution), Tobias (with or without Latios), or Alain (without Mega Evolution) who would absolutely dominate SM Ash.

Paul's League team (which is a significantly weaker team than Paul's actual best team of six) would demolish SM Ash 6-3 at very worst, and that's accounting for Paul sacrificing Aggron+Gastrodon. That's generous given that if Paul led with Drapion and sent out Electivire second, he'd sweep SM Ash 6-1 (assuming SM Ash sent out his Pokemon from strongest-to-weakest). The only way SM Ash could put up a decent fight is if he was allowed to use a Z-Move with each of his Pokemon (for a total of 6 Z-Moves). In this case, Paul would still win pretty decisively despite giving SM Ash a huge handicap in his favour.

Also, Kukui is not a Champion. Even if he were in the anime, that title would be irrelevant given Kukui founded the Alola League and had no qualifications to it. Kukui's skill as a trainer was irrelevant when creating the Alola League, since he was a Pokemon Professor. You also forget that the games and anime are separate, otherwise Acerola wouldn't be getting beaten by Kiawe, let alone Kahilli losing in the Battle Royal like all the other fodder trainers. Hell, even in the games where Kukui was a more competent trainer, he lost to Lance who was an E4 member at that time.

Even in the games, Kukui was never Champion-level. In the anime? Kukui's Incineroar never demonstrated any feat that couldn't be easily replicated by even the weakest of Frontier Brains. You seem to think that Kukui must be particularly strong, when in truth Kukui in the anime is significantly weaker than Brandon (and gets steamrolled without a Z-Move), and would probably struggle against some of the lesser Frontier Brains too. It could just simply be that Kukui was vastly overrated, and that Gladion (and arguably SM Ash too) was already a better trainer than him.

While I agree that SM Ash is vastly overrated (I put him below XY, DP, and BF Ash), you're underrating him too much by putting him below Johto and Hoenn Ash. He's shown to still have most of his skills multiple times (examples: using Iron Tail on Hariyama's legs, climbing on Lycanroc's Rock Tomb, climbing Hurricane with electric currents from TB, sweeping Golisopod off his feet to land a TB on his gut), especially during his current performance against Kukui (who you're also horribly underrating by saying he's around low-tier FB, even though he's been able to consistently beat Golisopod with Braviary in the past, OHKO a Rocket Elite's Mega Aggron with Incineroar, do damage to a giant Guzzlord with Lucario, and absolutely WRECK Melmetal even after he had gotten over his problems of DIB's slow charge). In terms of raw power, SM Ash should be a maybe bit above BF Ash, but BF Ash wins due to skills. From what I've seen, I'd compare Ash's current team to his BF team like this:

BF Ash: BF Ash: Pikachu (S or S+), Sceptile (S-, becomes S in the Sinnoh League), Swellow (A), Glalie (B), Corphish (B+, due to his perfomances against Tucker and Anabel), Torkoal (A-, due to his performance against Brandon)

SM Ash: Pikachu (??? Probably beyond S+, let's call it Z, maybe even Z+, but we'll have to wait until next week), Naganadel (???, I'll say A-, but I'm not too sure about this one), Incineroar (S or maybe even S+, assuming he's as strong as Blaze Torracat with BB absorbed), Melmetal (A), Rowlet (B or B-), Lycanroc (A)

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

I'll probably get hate for this but my Version of best ash are XY>DP>SM>BF>AG>BW>Johto>orange islands>Kanto

Yes I like him more than BF Ash kill me.

And no like I said ash hasn't downgraded he still is as competent and in continuity. If SM was a battle oriented series like DP and XY and focused a lot on battling I'm sure SM Ash would be as good as them. And no just coz someone is goofy doesn't mean he is a bad trainer. Ash is never shown to be incompetent and all his losses this series aren't bs, but against actual trainers or problems. Anyways due to today's episode I hope some positivity remains before I start getting negative replies to this

 

[CMButch]

I'll probably get hate for this but my Version of best ash are XY>DP>SM>BF>AG>BW>Johto>orange islands>Kanto

Yes I like him more than BF Ash kill me.

And no like I said ash hasn't downgraded he still is as competent and in continuity. If SM was a battle oriented series like DP and XY and focused a lot on battling I'm sure SM Ash would be as good as them. And no just coz someone is goofy doesn't mean he is a bad trainer. Ash is never shown to be incompetent and all his losses this series aren't bs, but against actual trainers or problems. Anyways due to today's episode I hope some positivity remains before I start getting negative replies to this

We're not talking about liking we are talking about his competence level or trainer level. BF Ash is still above SM Ash, since BF Ash actually beat Brandon and FB. Even after today's preformance, SM Ash is still weaker than BF since Kukui is nowhere near E4 level , he's beyond gym level. At best he may be some FB levels.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

BF Ash and DP Ash are at tie as best iterations of Ash. BF Ash because he kept using his Hoenn team and grew stronger by having another saga to work through. DP Ash because it did acknowledge his feats done on all previous regions. Hmm...wouldn't DP Ash technically be BF Ash anyway?

SM Ash is just inconsistent. He was kind of a joke due to a severe lack of battles and a low amount of Pokemon - two of which were more used than a starter - before Gladion's match at the league made Ash's team go into overdrive with getting an evolved Mythical and then Poipole returning all evolved into a monster out of nowhere. I did like the final battles, but goodness, I brushed Ash off before during this saga because he was too busy goofing off and getting smacked in the face.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

We're not talking about liking we are talking about his competence level or trainer level. BF Ash is still above SM Ash, since BF Ash actually beat Brandon and FB. Even after today's preformance, SM Ash is still weaker than BF since Kukui is nowhere near E4 level , he's beyond gym level. At best he may be some FB levels.

I'm not talking about liking either else XY ash won't be on top. I'm talking about competency