• Hey all, due to some issues ith some false DMCAs, we've had to censor a few things until the situation is resolved. Sorry for any inconvenience
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Do you think that the rise of China is a bad thing or not?

Vermehlo_Steele

Grand Arbiter II
It is official fact now that China is unavoidably becoming more powerful, and that while the US is still very strong, it is no longer the only superpower. So is China's rise to a global power a good thing? considering it is a chronic human-rights abuser, it's people have no democracy, freedom of speech, freedom to religion and that their government is xenophobic, as we have seen with Tibet, Uighers and other "ethnics". But on the flip side it will keep the West from launching another pointless crusade purely for profit (i.e Iraq) and for Asia to have it's own superpower for the first time in centuries.
 

BigLutz

Banned
I dont see how Iraq would be considered a pointless crusade, infact it seems like you were just grasping at straws to find something bad against the west.

No China's rise is not a good thing, while it may end up in the end killing China's Communist Economy, they still have a horrible and oppressive Government. Who not only treats its people like dirt, but also has its hands deep inside nearly every horrible event going on in the world. From the Darfur Genocide, to North Korea, to Iran, China's finger prints from its growing influence can be found all over them, and if that is a sign of things to come then the world is in alot of trouble.
 

BlueMew7

what up daddy in the house
Of course it's a bad thing! Because America won't have any more toys and we'll have to make them... dare I say it... ourselves!
 

Superliminal

When I grow up...
for Asia to have it's own superpower for the first time in centuries

Umm, Japan?

China is managing to drag itself out of the mire of poverty caused by the idiotic planning of the Great Leap Forwards and the Cultural Revolution, and is on its way to becoming one of the leading economic powers. While I agree that some of its actions (the oppression in Tibet, the recent beheading of a mentally ill British criminal) are despicable in 50-100 years time their atrocities will be largely forgiven, as those committed by the USA and Britain have been.

A lack of democracy is not a valid reason why it should remain an LEDC, and you are extremely naive if you think no MEDCs have money invested in conflicts around the world.

In short, no other nation should tell China its not allowed to develop as a country, as how can you apply your own values, ethics and laws to a country with a vastly different society, government and culture?
 

Zenotwapal

have a drink on me
Umm, Japan?

China is managing to drag itself out of the mire of poverty caused by the idiotic planning of the Great Leap Forwards and the Cultural Revolution, and is on its way to becoming one of the leading economic powers. While I agree that some of its actions (the oppression in Tibet, the recent beheading of a mentally ill British criminal) are despicable in 50-100 years time their atrocities will be largely forgiven, as those committed by the USA and Britain have been.

A lack of democracy is not a valid reason why it should remain an LEDC, and you are extremely naive if you think no MEDCs have money invested in conflicts around the world.

In short, no other nation should tell China its not allowed to develop as a country, as how can you apply your own values, ethics and laws to a country with a vastly different society, government and culture?

Of course.
Yes, you have a excellent point of ehtics here.

BUT, think about this here:
Would you let ANY communist country develop as a "organized" country?
Your risking possible war.
Keep communist countries like China and North Korea down low; its better to have the pest pinned down than to let it free for it to grow more disruptive.
 

Vermehlo_Steele

Grand Arbiter II
Thanks for your responses so far, I'm glad you see China for what it is and not the sanitised version the Chinese nationals and Western corporates like to show us. Firstly I'm not Anit-West, I love the Western ideals, it's just we have made mistakes and those mistakes sometimes stemed from out perceived invulnerbility, a rival bloc(s) help keep delusions of grandeur suppresed. Secondly I was taught at Historical studies at school that a superpower was a country with large econmy, nuclear weapons, modern military, stable political and social enviroment and global influence. China ticks all boxes save for the social and military milestones, whereas Japan can only claim to have a superior economy and military and stable politcal/social scene. That and the fact Asia would rather support China than Japan is the reason why the Middle Kingdom is the Asian SP and not Japan.

It may sound arrogant/racist but I have to say I agree with Zenotwapal's view on China and N.Korea.
 

Yonowaru in Chaos

gaspard de la nuit
Umm, Japan?

The future is likely to see China overtake Japan economically, seeing as the latter is, I think, still in (or recovering from) a recession.


More on the issue; I myself am not really fond of China as a whole (due to all the reasons commonly cited). Politically, corruption occurs quite frequently, and the government's pretty much only still around for its own sake - not for its peoples as nomenclature may allude. Education pretty much reduces the people (more importantly, the youth) to sheep taught 'Guomindang = BAD' and censorship is just ridiculous. So is this.

What China needs is a colonial takeover, not unlike what Hong Kong went through while under British rule. Although it would probably take hundreds of years for China to catch up, seeing as it took 99 years to escalate Hong Kong to what it is now.
 

Ethan

Banned
Thanks for your responses so far, I'm glad you see China for what it is and not the sanitised version the Chinese nationals and Western corporates like to show us. Firstly I'm not Anit-West, I love the Western ideals, it's just we have made mistakes and those mistakes sometimes stemed from out perceived invulnerbility, a rival bloc(s) help keep delusions of grandeur suppresed. Secondly I was taught at Historical studies at school that a superpower was a country with large econmy, nuclear weapons, modern military, stable political and social enviroment and global influence. China ticks all boxes save for the social and military milestones, whereas Japan can only claim to have a superior economy and military and stable politcal/social scene. That and the fact Asia would rather support China than Japan is the reason why the Middle Kingdom is the Asian SP and not Japan.

It may sound arrogant/racist but I have to say I agree with Zenotwapal's view on China and N.Korea.


A super power must be able to exert its technological, cultural, economic, and military influence across any part of the globe, and at times in more than one place at the same time. No other country is able to do this like the United States. Is Chinese technological influence spread all across the globe? No, because they are still a developing nation and they are still way behind their little neighbor Japan in that regard. Is there military modern? Not completely, a large bulk of their military is buying old cold war technology from the Russians.

By your definition the UK and France would also be technically superpowers, when this is clearly not true. China may be what one would consider a great power, like Russia is now. Which means that they can exert their influence regionally, as seen with how Russia bullied Georgia in 2008. Can Russia step up to the plate an intervene on the side of nations like Egypt anymore? Hell no. China can't even take their own island back if they wanted to.

I do not deny that China is a rising power, but all developing East asian nations have huge economic development. Its because they are going through a chapter we already went through a long time ago. Industrialization. Even a tiny little country like Vietnam has about the same economic growth, somewhere around 8% a year.

China is hardly the grave military force to be a reckoned with as its portrayed so often.
 

The Director

Ancient Trainer
Ha, a grave military force. Thats not the problem here. Lets face it the three countries that make some of the most important advances are all working together (Japan, USA and, although this place is debateable, the UK) therefore even if China does manage to rear its head at any of us we will be able to crush them with superior technology.

No the real chinese problem is much sneakier and subtle than that.

I would ask this question. What made Britain and America rich? For those who don't know it was ashamedly slavery. Being able to produce things without paying the workers. Nowadays there is minimum wage so it is far less profitable to make something in America, Britain or Japan. So what do we do? We buy from China, because they can afford to have basically slaves working there. And that's where all are money is eventually going, like a cracked swimming pool, its subtle but sooner or later its going to be a problem.

Who is to blame? It's our greedy capitalistic societies thats going to make China very powerful in the long run. We have noone to blame but ourselves.
 

BigLutz

Banned
Something interesting to note, especially with the timing, is that the man who predicted Enron's fall and the fall of several major banks and housing firms is now coming out saying China is scheduled to fall as well. What he predicts could be summed up in: Dubai times 1,000 or worse

If anyone remembers, Dubai is a rapidly growing city that had amazing growth, and now has to default on its loans due to the economic crisis as it comes tumbling down.

Anyway on to the article.

Yahoo Business said:
James S. Chanos built one of the largest fortunes on Wall Street by foreseeing the collapse of Enron and other highflying companies whose stories were too good to be true.

Now Mr. Chanos, a wealthy hedge fund investor, is working to bust the myth of the biggest conglomerate of all: China Inc.

As most of the world bets on China to help lift the global economy out of recession, Mr. Chanos is warning that China's hyperstimulated economy is headed for a crash, rather than the sustained boom that most economists predict. Its surging real estate sector, buoyed by a flood of speculative capital, looks like "Dubai times 1,000 -- or worse," he frets. He even suspects that Beijing is cooking its books, faking, among other things, its eye-popping growth rates of more than 8 percent.

"Bubbles are best identified by credit excesses, not valuation excesses," he said in a recent appearance on CNBC. "And there's no bigger credit excess than in China." He is planning a speech later this month at the University of Oxford to drive home his point.


http://finance.yahoo.com/retirement...s-economic-crash-in-china?mod=retire-planning
 
China isn't nor will it ever be a Superpower.

There is no way in hell that it can maintain this level of growth through their current economic strategy. It is just accumulating resources and overworking their (aging) large labour force.

Asia's first true superpower in my opinion will be India, and obviously their more well liked by the rest of the global community.
 

Vermehlo_Steele

Grand Arbiter II
Agreed, India will have higher population in 2050 than anyone including the Red Empire of the East. I'm glad about that to, as India has a better government and better official ideals than REotE.
 

The_Panda

恭喜發財
So much to say, so little time! (I'm going to try make this concise, for once, but I'll still cover as much as I can)

First, everybody who has been saying China is not a superpower is completely correct, China's military is nowhere near that of the US's and theres absolutely no indication that the Chinese are looking to confront the US. The most telling thing of all is the fact that China's nuclear arsenal basically hasn't changed all that much in forty years, and I think nuclear arsenals are by far the best indicators of military power and overall geopolitical aspirations for a country like China. So two things, China is not a superpower, and while China is a military "threat" on paper and a possible scenario, I think its highly unlikely.

Also, be careful not to daemonise China, indeed I think the biggest stumbling block against China internationally is just misunderstanding and xenophobia, a relic from the Mao years when people (actually) knew nothing about China. Most of China's big critics (including those on this thread) probably know nothing about China, indeed if you're going around talking about slave societies then you certainly don't. Cheap manufacturing is a product of both a huge labour market (due to the number of peasants coming out of poverty every year) and lower wages that is seen in all other similar GDP PPP countries. Besides, cheap manufacturing, which some people are attacking as "slavery", is the exact thing that brought Japan and the Asian Tigers to the pinnacle of modernity. The other thing people have to realise is that despite political and media restrictions, the lives of most Chinese are basically akin to the lives of people in 1950's and 60's Japan, which was in a similar state.

As for the Chinese economy, I highly doubt it will crash due to the fact that China's full potential in terms of capital has just not been reached yet, its still in the stages of modernisation. What I would like to offer is a sort of twist on what BigLutz said earlier. The analyst quoted is absolutely right that China will end up producing far more manufactured goods than it can sell, but only if it continues along its current path, which it obviously won't. The thing people really often neglect is that the next generation of Chinese will have a far greater access to universities and jobs, and what you'll see is a gradual shift in the economy from a manufacturing base to a much more service based economy (probably with an emphasis on manufacturing though for quite some time). China's middle class is exploding (in fact there's nothing more telling than the ridiculous number of luxury boutiques opening up in Beijing and Shanghai, because Chinese women love their handbags), and this will refocus the economy just as happened in the modernisation of other East Asian nations.

Also what's with this thing about keeping China pinned down low? That's just absolutely wrong and frankly selfish, the Chinese people deserve to come out of poverty. Besides the CCP is a corrupt load of crap, but its still miles away from anything like North Korea. China is basically communist in name only, so stop calling it things like "the Red Empire of the East". I actually find that quite offensive, if not juvenile.

As for my personal take on China being a threat, may I simply propose this. China is a threat only in one way, which is this. In the past, third world nations have been presented with essentially two choices: to follow a communist, authoritarian path to development, or a western, democratic path. The vast majority of nations in the world couldn't really commit to either, because they realised communism was stupid, but their leaders didn't want democracy. What ended up was countries stuck in a total quagmire where nothing really occurred, stuck at middle income nations at the absolute best. The only countries that really managed to break out were Japan and the Asian Tigers. What China offers is an example of a third path, a way to develop economically with much smaller (but still very significant, China has come a long way) relaxations on government power than would be in the west. This in itself is a threat not to any nation in particular, but to the expansion of democracy into those nations.

Finally, I don't think the Chinese dictatorship can stand the test of time. I highly doubt civil disobedience will again be prominent in the way that it appeared in 1989 (which must always be kept in mind when discussing China), and if reform comes it will probably come from within the party itself. But the party is not a small clique of domineering oligarchs, its a huge organisation with people carrying a wide range of views (whether they announce them or not is another matter). Similar to the way that a "liberal" faction of the Communist Party in the USSR "magically" emerged in 1985, it probably won't be too long before someone similar to Mikhail Gorbachev assumes control in China, and the face of Chinese politics will change dramatically. We must not forget that 1989 showed that the CCP has huge liberal elements to it; it's those internal elements that I believe will (hopefully sometime soon) bring about political reform to match the economic reform.
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
Is it a bad thing? To some people it is. Apparently, anytime a country other than the USA makes any advancements, it's a bad thing.
 

Ash-kid

Ash-kid
Yes, I think it's a bad thing. to US, not to the rest of the world.
 

Ash-kid

Ash-kid
Agreed, India will have higher population in 2050 than anyone including the Red Empire of the East. I'm glad about that to, as India has a better government and better official ideals than REotE.

But China's population would be higher as well. untill there (2050), we can't even think what could happen. India will have a big problems if the population will be high as like China's.
 

Vermehlo_Steele

Grand Arbiter II
@ The 4th KIRA: So you would have a governement who lies, slaughters, abducts, who threatens and humiliates anyone who opposes them or even refueses to cooperate on prices let alone human rights. Silly me! of course oligarchial, totalitarian China ,who kills more of their own people in one year than the rest of the world combined in one year, is CLERALY a better world leader than the democratic USA, who has prorbabaly not even excecuted 1/10 of a million people in the last 200 years, but Mao excecuted 60-80 million in 40 years.

@Ash-Kid: China ALREADY has massive problems, India is only STARTING to experiance them. Problems include lack of food, straining water, electricity supplies, overcrowding, severe and grave enviromental destruction and degredation andd the greatest of all, gender disparity (CHINA HAS 138 BOYS BORN TO EVERY 100 GIRLS THANKS TO SEXIST SOCIETY OF CONFUCIUS LEARNING)
at least the West dosn't kill baby girls, unlike China and to a lesser extent, India.

@The Panda: I'm sorry if I caused offence, I know it's worth very little, but if i've offended, then I'm sorry. It's the governement and bueracracy that should be suppressed, not the citizens and society. You said that a Sinic-Gorbachev would emerge and cause reform, I don't want that ,for if that happens, if change comes too rapidly, then China will follow the Soviet Union wherein you just replace one authoritarian, corrupt Mao-figure lead government with another. China needs a gradual transition to Democracy, universal rule of law and implementation of Charter 08 for progress, stability, liberty, prosperity and equality (between Rural and Urban, government and public, races, gender and religion or lack thereof and between China and the West, I despise one bloc holding suprmeme, unchallenged power) to last.

China's authorities are defying history here, they know this, but they won't last forever and again, they know this.
 
Last edited:

asdfqwerty

New Member
Ugh. Like to write an essay, but I'll be brief. Vermehlo_Steele and co need to understand a bit more before spewing xenophobic rhetoric.

Firstly, China isn't communist. That is just a title. Chinese society is really dominated by the idea of class and materialism.

The Tibet issue isn't as simple as 'China should get out', that's basically akin to saying white people need to leave Australia. (and it's not like the Tibetians have a great record at leading themselves or human rights either)

At the moment 90% of Chinese serve 10%. That is to say, the Chinese in major cities live pretty much like westerners. It's not good, but it's the only way the society can maintain itself while it develops.

Higher education and especially access to the internet (although censored) and western people will eventually make the government more accountable for their actions. China has already became far more politically responsible than 50, 20, even 10 years ago.




Of course Chinese being a super power is a good thing. There is 1.3 billion of them, and most of these people live reasonably poor. If they can live a better life that is a fantastic thing, and it is horrible to want to hold that many people down.
 
Top