Do you want that guy who beat Ash in the XY league to return ?

[PsychoLogical]

Sure why not.

 

[Kuzehiko]

Flint was portrayed as the strongest E4 member in sinnoh,Aaron was definitely the weakest.He put up more of a fight than any of the E4 that faced Cynthia's Garchomp and this was way back in DP.It's all about eyetest.

And he lost which still leaves him at E4 level even if slightly close to regional champion level he's not at that level, and Iris is which means Flint would lose.
Regional champion>E4. It isn't that hard.

 

[Kuzehiko]

And who did she beat to become champion?Alder?That guy was one of the weakest champions in the anime,another person I could see Flint beating.You can't be that powerful if you lost to a regular trainer and it wasn't even by the hands of AG.

Again, where's the proof that Alder is weaker than other regional champion? That's just your assumption. The anime never showed he is either weaker or stronger than other regional champion and the same goes for the champions from other regions. Iris got stronger and defeated the Unova E4 and Alder.

 

[Kuzehiko]

Cynthia,Steven and Diantha are stronger buddy whether you like it or not.

Nope, that's your headcanon with no proof. The anime never stated that.
There's no evidence to that.

 

[Kuzehiko]

General consensus was Cyhthia as the strongest champion so that's bullshit you're spewing.Your headcanon is believing a rookie champion could beat someone like Flint especially after it lost to a Dragonite.If Dragonite is so powerful why didn't you give any other examples?

Stop strawmanning dude.
Cynthia is the strongest in Sinnoh only.
General consensus my butt. She was never stated to be stronger than any other champion. She never battled any other champion. I'm saying the canon facts here, what the show has shown us, unlike you who's streawmanning and try to make your headcanons facts.

It is not a headcanon. Iris is a champion.
Flint is an E4. Iris can defeat him. Even when she's already defeated Unova E4, plus the champion as well.

You are are making up stuff by saying X regional champion is stronger than Y regional champion when that NEVER happened in the show. There are not feats to it. The same thing you are making up with E4s, you are indirectly saying Unova E4 is the weakest regional E4 which is false and has never once been proven.

Iris' not a rookie. She's a champion lmao.
What other examples do you want? Ash's Dragonite defeated the ace Pokemon of a regional champion. That's the hell of a feat.

Now stop with your strawmanning.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Now you're melting down.You say Iris can beat Flint because you say so?So just because she's champion that automatically means she can beat any E4 from any of the regions?I'm not buying it.But your logic is since she's now a champion her performance vs Ash was better than Flint's vs Cynthia.Give me more examples of Ash's Dragonite if you can.

Cynthia literally tied against Caitlin who is an E4 member below Alder. Even if it was a time based battle her easily being able to hold off Cynthia is indicative of her power, which proves Alders strength. Iris surpassed Alder. @Kuzehiko is right, Iris would stomp Alain. All you have to claim otherwise are headcanons and personal wishes but no factual evidence

 

[Kuzehiko]

Now you're melting down.You say Iris can beat Flint because you say so?So just because she's champion that automatically means she can beat any E4 from any of the regions?I'm not buying it.But your logic is since she's now a champion her performance vs Ash was better than Flint's vs Cynthia.Give me more examples of Ash's Dragonite if you can.

I am not lol.
Of course she can.
It was established that the regional champions are stronger than E4 no matter what region they come from.
It's not a matter of performance. It's a matter of feats and established facts that you are deliberately ignoring. I already told you. Ash's Dragonite defeated Iris's Ace regional champion. As I said that is the hell of a feat.

 

[Kuzehiko]

Cynthia literally tied against Caitlin who is an E4 member below Alder. Even if it was a time based battle her easily being able to hold off Cynthia is indicative of her power, which proves Alders strength. Iris surpassed Alder. @Kuzehiko is right, Iris would stomp Alain. All you have to claim otherwise are headcanons and personal wishes but no factual evidence

I would like to say that was an exhibition.
Cynthia was not going all out against her.
That said it was a great exhibition.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

A drinking game based on anime!Caitlin's addiction to the word "elegance" would be suicide.

 

[Kuzehiko]

You say she can beat every E4 because you say so despite losing to a mere Dragonite.So her title as champion is tainted.Eyetest wise Flint's performance was better,you still haven't given me more examples for Dragonite.

It's not a mere Dragonite. It's the canon fact that Ash's Dragonite proved to be stronger than the ace of a regional champion. And what if that was better?
Doesn't invalid the fact that Iris is a regional champion and is stronger than E4s. The regional champion Ash defeated with his Dragonite. You are acting like defeating the ace of a regional champion is not enough of an example when it IS.
You are just in denial and don't want to admit what the show established and even saying Iris is a weak champion.
You are delusional.

 

[Leonhart]

I don't have any particular feelings towards Alan so I wouldn't mind if he returns, but neither would I be ecstatic about it. I have a feeling that him returning wouldn't be received well among the fandom however, and then of course most viewers would want Satoshi to beat Alan in a rematch even though I personally couldn't care less about their battle records or any potential grudge match between them.

 

[Kuzehiko]

Your dumb logic

Iris's Haxorus => Cynthia's Garchomp

Iris's Haxorus => Steven's Metagross

Iris's Haxorus => Diantha's Gardevoir

Iris's Haxorus >>> Flint's Infernape

Iris's Haxorus >>> Alain's MCX

Actually that is your logic.
Stop lying and misleading. I clearly said the show never stated whether X regional champion was stronger Y regional champion. That's what you said.

I did say Iris' Haxorus is>Flint's Infernape and Alain's MCX.

 

[Kuzehiko]

I know deep down you want it to be stronger than all of the champions that's what I know.

Nah you're lying and clearly lack reading comprehension. Whoever does not lack it will understand what I said. You are just being delusional. Nobody agrees with you lol.

 

[Kuzehiko]

I don't care about someone disagreeing with me none of these people on here are my friends.I'm going by eyetest regardless of trainer class Flint's performance was better than Iris's vs Ash,hiding behind the "she's champion" doesn't fly.If she's so powerful and is equal or better to the other champions like Diantha and Steven she should've been able to defeat Dragonite with little to no effort.So Ash is actually the regional champion.

>Ash is the regional champion
No because it wasn't an official battle for the title championship of the Unova region. It wasn't a 6vs6 either and Ash should have cleared the Unova E4. It was just a battle concerning the WCS. But you can take for granted he is that a champion level.

>she should have been able to beat Dragonite with little no effort
The point is, She is at least as strong as them by the established facts of the show. They ****ing wanted to hype and wank Ash to the hell so badly this they had him defeat a regional champion. The thing is Ash is the stronger one, not Iris the weak one. There are NO feats in the show amongst regional champions battle like to claim whether or not X or Y champion from a region is stronger than Z champion.

It does matter whether you think it flies or not. It is the canon. You are just basing your headcanon on a performance from 11 years ago. Pokemon battle performance got worse after XY yet it does not invalid the established facts of the show and the feats of the characters.
If you don't like it that is your own issue.

 

[PsychoLogical]

And this here folks is why I just about never participate in powerscaling discussions in any series. Always goes wrong or goes too far, biggest woe of any sort of series besides shipping.

 

[PsychoLogical]

But here you are reading the dicussions and still responding so that really doesn't matter does it?

Only if I actually take part of the actual discussion and not dumping a bystander comment with no relation to the topic like I just did.

 

[Zero1999]

Unless Greninja can come back, i can't see Alain returning, Alain was surprised seeing Ash Greninja pull a transformation that can battle his MCX and that was mostly their reason for their clashes, besides he no longer goes collecting Mega Evolution energy and as of the finale of XYZ, he no longer has Charizardite X, his interest in battling could still be there, the guy can be below an E4 member level (at least his Charizard).

Even if i like the character, i don't see him coming back

 

[Kuzehiko]

Doesn't matter if it wasn't an official battle or not,he beat her so she really isn't a champion she lost to someone of a much lower class.

>Ash
>lower-class
>KL runner-up, E4 level of strength
>won Alola League beat several legendaries, beat Kukui
>JN, defeats Unova champion, who in turn had defeated Alder and the Unova E4.

Ash's level has been all over the place and he has gotten stronger since XY. Don't say nonsense.

Established by what facts of the show?None of the champions that I listed have lost especially to a regular trainer.

Who convenient. You list the champions who only got to appear and shine in the show while others did not. That does not make other champions that didn't get their chance to show their power any less weaker than the ones that did.

You are basically saying Alder is a weak despite never having seen him fight. Even if he lost to Iris that means Iris is strong and not that he is weak.

Also champions can be defeated
Lance lost his title.
Wallace lost his title.
Alder lost his title.
And not sure if Cynthia still keeps it.
That does not make them weak. It just means someone else is overtook them because they're stronger.

So they hype and wanked Ash so badly they let a random Dragonite with apparently no other feats except this one beat a regional champion.

Still will not change the fact whether you think it is random or not. Stop going back and forth, first you
>blame Ash because he is a low class trainer
>then you say Dragonite is random
Decide yourself lol.
Ash's place is all over the place. He is gotten stronger and Dragonite is not *random*. Fought a Giant Golurk, defeated Korrina's Pokemon included her powered Mega Lucario and Iris' ace regional champion Pokemon.

If you say we can't claim whether or not X or Y champion from a region is stronger than z champion then Aaron is just as strong as any of the E4 from sinnoh or any other region and Iris is just as strong or stronger than Cynthia,Diantha and Steven even if she doesn't have a powerup.

You cannot say Bertha is stronger than Aaron when we have not seen them fight anyone but Cynthia. Obviously one is stronger but how do you know for certain when there are no feats to claim? Meanwhile it's safe to assume they are at E4 level and that is it. Same goes for the regional champions, have we seen them battle amongst then in the show?
NO.
How can you say Cynthia is stronger than Alder or Steve is stronger than Alder when we never got to see him fight another champion? Same goes for a Cynthia vs Dintha, or Diantha vs Cynthia. They haven't fought other regional champions like to claim one is stronger than the other. Without feats you cannot do that.
You can't just take a battle performance from a regional champion against an E4 and then say just because that E4 did well despite losing, that makes him stronger than the champion of another region. Champions>E4.
No matter what region the champion is fron, any champion will be stronger than any E4 from any region till is proven otherwise.

So you say it's headcannon because you don't agree with that performance being more impressive than Iris's vs Ash yeah okay.She's champion and I'm supposed to accept it because it's "canon" regardless of how bad the loss makes her look.

Exactly.
Latios vs Pikachu was even more impressive yet that does make Tobias stronger than champion Iris.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Yes and No, Alain as a rival was awful but Ash deserves to at least beat his rival once

 

[RafaSceptile]

Now that I mentioned my opinion, let's address part of the discussion

Spoiler: A lot of discussion

It was an ongoing debate on whether he's E4 or champion level but Iris has gotta be one of if not the weakest champion in the anime.I could see Flint's Infernape defeating her Haxorus without a doubt.

This is your headcanon. Nothing confirms that Iris is stronger than Flint or Flint is stronger than Iris. But Alain based on feats, should be E4 level.

Flint was portrayed as the strongest E4 member in sinnoh,Aaron was definitely the weakest.He put up more of a fight than any of the E4 that faced Cynthia's Garchomp and this was way back in DP.It's all about eyetest.

The only thing you can confirm with this is that Cynthia > Flint > Aaron.

That guy was one of the weakest champions in the anime,another person I could see Flint beating.You can't be that powerful if you lost to a regular trainer and it wasn't even by the hands of AG.

Your headcanon, Caitlin who is E4 had a fair battle against Cynthia and Alder should be stronger than Caitlin. Ash is no longer a regular trainer in terms of strength.

Cynthia,Steven and Diantha are stronger

Nothing confirms it.

But your logic is since she's now a champion her performance vs Ash was better than Flint's vs Cynthia.

Flint's performance was better

Different trainers from different moments in the timeline, you can't compare them.

Your dumb logic

Iris's Haxorus => Cynthia's Garchomp

Iris's Haxorus => Steven's Metagross

Iris's Haxorus => Diantha's Gardevoir

Iris's Haxorus >>> Flint's Infernape

Iris's Haxorus >>> Alain's MCX

I don't see how it is dumb, and it is possible, but not confirmed.

If she's so powerful and is equal or better to the other champions like Diantha and Steven she should've been able to defeat Dragonite with little to no effort.So Ash is actually the regional champion.

The Dragonite of a current champion level trainer*, not a weak Dragonite.

she really isn't a champion she lost to someone of a much lower class.

She is a champion, no matter what you say, and idk how a champion level trainer is a much lower class

None of the champions that I listed have lost especially to a regular trainer.

This includes Iris as Ash is no longer a regular trainer.

She's champion and I'm supposed to accept it because it's "canon" regardless of how bad the loss makes her look.

Canon things are not supposed to be accepted, because that is what happened.

Regardless of all that he's still a regular trainer in the category with Alain,Tobias and Paul.

Ironically, Paul is the only one of those to not be "confirmed" to be E4 level, so he is the closest to a regular trainer between them.

So are Steven and Diantha losing to that Dragonite as well?

Diantha almost lost to A-G, so not outside of the possibilities.

So for all we know Alder just retired and gave his title to Iris and not actually beaten her.Honestly that's more believable than her actually beating Alder in a small amount of time.This isn't the first time she was handed something she didn't earn.

Even if that is the case she should be enough strong to be considered worth to be the Unova Champion, so the point about Iris strength still is valid.

didn't Pikachu defeat Lucario?

Pikachu was E4 level during XY and currently Champion level (with his own inconsistences), so Idk how it helps in your "argument"

Iris should be able to wipe the floor with Tobias.

That is not how it works, as nothing stablishes the difference in strength between both trainers

Trying to scale the power level of trainers of different regions and series is a pretty futile effort. Might as well stop there.

Sure why not.

And this here folks is why I just about never participate in powerscaling discussions in any series. Always goes wrong or goes too far, biggest woe of any sort of series besides shipping.

Only if I actually take part of the actual discussion and not dumping a bystander comment with no relation to the topic like I just did.

As someone who sometimes talk about powerscaling, those were the best comments from the last two pages.