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Does Ash really deserve to win a league?

roguedr4g0nite

WishiWashi Trainer
Does Ash deserve to win? IMO yes. I'm surprised the CEO doesn't consider it a slap in the face when a character based off him didn't win after 20 years. But I understand that realistically Ash losing is just as probable. How? Well look at VGC. How many times have people expected certain VGC players from their country win? Many times. There have even been what seemed to be laughable feats like the Pachirisu that won worlds. Sound like Cameron anyone? VGC is an great simile to Pokémon Leagues because you're using a team and competing against other great competitive gamers to win. The guy you're rooting for might always end up losing but hey there's always next year.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Still curious on what Ash's best regional team is. I feel like a side by side comparison between Sinnoh and Kalos, show that his Kalos mon are stronger. Individually, you can handpick certain pokes from each region, but I don't know about a full regional team line up.

Pikachu = Pikachu
Gliscor > Noivern
Torterra < or = Goodra
Staraptor < Talonflame
Infernape < Greninja/Ash-Greninja
Buizel < Hawlucha

In my opinion.

Pikachu = Pikachu
Gliscor > Mr. Big and Reliable
Torterra >/= Barney
Staraptor < Smogonbird
Blazefernape = IKUZEfrog
Buizel =/< Lucha

Completely agree with this

Also when it comes to comparison with Hoenn
1. Pikachu = Pikachu
2. Ash-Greninja > Sceptile
3. Talonflame < Swellow
4. Hawlucha > Corphish
5. Goodra > Torkoal
6. Noivern < Glalie
IMO

Pikachu = Pikachu
Glalie > Mr. Big and Reliable
Swellow > Smogonbird
Corphish =/< Lucha
Torkoal =/< Barney
Sceptile = IKUZEfrog
 

Xenon Blue

No Hard Feelings
I feel like Hoenn, Sinnoh, Kanto and Kalos team is pretty close in power. If I have to rank them though, it's Hoenn >= Sinnoh > Kanto = Kalos > Unova = Johto.
 

LizardonX

Banned
Nope.

But hey he's still an immortal kid who never has to worry about money while he travels across the world seeing every single event of note during the time period. I'd say he's got it pretty good even as a perpetual loser.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Pikachu = Pikachu
Gliscor > Mr. Big and Reliable
Torterra >/= Barney
Staraptor < Smogonbird
Blazefernape = IKUZEfrog
Buizel =/< Lucha



Pikachu = Pikachu
Glalie > Mr. Big and Reliable
Swellow > Smogonbird
Corphish =/< Lucha
Torkoal =/< Barney
Sceptile = IKUZEfrog

Alright let's do this

1. Ash Greninja > Blaze Infernape > Sceptile > Infernape = Greninja
2. Swellow > Talonflame > Staraptor
3. Hawlucha > Buizel = Corphish
4. Goodra >= Torterra > Torkoal
5. Glalie > Gliscor > Noivern

Ash-Greninja is Ash's strongest regional ace bar none for 1 simple reason, It forced Diatnha to use ME. While it was apparent that Diantha was not fighting base Greninja seriously and just wanted to test its power, but as soon as it transformed (Imperfect), we see a clear shift in Diantha's tone and she herself implies that AG > base Gardevoir. Diantha doesn't use ME unless she thinks it's necessary with Pikachu's battle being a prime example. There is no evidence that implies Diantha's base Gardevoir is significantly weaker than the base versions of any other regional champion's ace. AG also had a very competitive match with an E4+ lvl Pokemon in Alan's MC X, whereas Infernape got OHKed by Flint's Infernape and while its blaze is very formidable, saying it would give Flint's Infernape a competitive fight is a big stretch. In addition, The above champion statement could also be made about the E4. Sceptile is very impressive with its most notable win being against a Darkrai at about 70% health (yes, even with dream eater healing taken into consideration) give or take 10%, but do you really see it forcing an E4 or Champion lvl Pokemon to ME, because that still seems like a stretch to me. It is harder to say though since Sceptile has never fought an E4 or Champion (though Grovyle did and got destroyed by Drake's Altaria).

Regarding Hawlucha, it fainted to a move that essentially hit him with his strongest move (Flying Press) at x4 power (since it was SE on Slaking). Sawyer stating that Slaking was Hawlucha's counter heavily implies it was trained in bulk to be able to withstand an onslaught of attacks. Hawlucha had a great showing against Alan and lost due to a combination of thunder wave paralysis + staggering from the damage of missing HJK + a OHK move. Bisharp was also portrayed as 1 of Alan's stronger Pokemon, so I see no shame in that loss either. Like it or not, the narrative of showcasing Hawlucha beat Astrid's Mega Absol was done to symbolize Hawlucha's strength. I do wish we saw the full battle between them, but even if Ash's other Pokemon had dealt prior damage to Mega Absol, being able to actually KO a very strong Pokemon is still a commendable feat. A good example of this being Gliscor's KO of Paul's Drapion still being impressive despite Drapion being significantly damaged and fatigued from taking out half of Ash's team prior. Mega Absol clearly was very strong, since even Alan acknowledged its strength (though Alan's MC X wasn't quite E4 lvl at that time, but was still good enough to impress 1). Nothing against Buizel and Corphish, since both have had impressive battles, but they're still below Hawlucha.

Regarding Goodra and Torterra. Torterra's most impressive GYM win was against Roark's Ramparados as a Turtwig and Goodra's was Clemont's Luxray. Now this is a matter of opinion, but I would say that Clemont's Luxray is stronger. Also you can't use the evolution argument, since It could be said that Turtwig got overall worse once it evolved, since it lost a lot of its speed. They both were able to significantly damage powerful Pokemon in the form of Drapion and Bisharp. Goodra's battle with Slurpuff had a lot of symbolism of Goodra's mental fortitude, since that battle showed Goodra could go toe to toe with a type that it once feared and that it could keep charging bide while staring flamethrower in the face (the fire would relate to Goodra's PTSD), so I'm not holding that tie against it. I would say they're around even with a slight edge to Goodra, since atleast it could knockout Pokemon in its final stage, though I wish we saw it in more battles to make better comparisons. Torkoal was really impressive against Brandon's Registeel, but given how consistently poor its battling performance is barring that, that I'd say it's easily Ash's weakest tank when compared to Torterra and Goodra.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Ash's Competency by region would go Kalos = Sinnoh > Hoenn > Johto > Unova > Kanto.
Ash's best regional team with each consisting of Pikachu and the top 5 of that region would honestly go something like Kalos >= Kanto (including OI) > Sinnoh = Hoenn >> Johto >= Unova, Since I can't see Sinnoh and Hoenn beating a team of Pikachu, Charizard, Snorlax, Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Kingler, and I could even see Snorlax and Charizard together pushing Ash Greninja quite far.
 

Litleonid

Well-Known Member
He's the protagonist. If he trains hard and builds up a well rounded team, he deserves to win. BW Ash did not have a well rounded team at all, though DP Ash did. XY Ash's team is a little less well rounded, though it was very well trained and powerful. DP and XY Ash deserved to win the leagues, though the absurd status quo keeps him from winning. The writers continue to hold onto the absurd belief that Ash winning a league would end his journey, though we know he'd still have the Champion's League to go through to reach the Champion, so winning league realistically wouldn't end his journey. Also, with the way Ash is written, I doubt after winning one league he'd just stop. He loves to travel and meet new Pokemon, so he would continue on if he heard about a region he hasn't been to. So yeah, I believe Ash does deserve to win a league.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
I feel like Hoenn, Sinnoh, Kanto and Kalos team is pretty close in power. If I have to rank them though, it's Hoenn >= Sinnoh > Kanto = Kalos > Unova = Johto.

I think technically, each subsequent regional team was supposed to be better, but the difference is extremely marginal. A major reason of why Kalos does well is simply due to IKUZEfrog and Pikachu hard carrying in a lot of battles.


Alright let's do this

1. Ash Greninja > Blaze Infernape > Sceptile > Infernape = Greninja
2. Swellow > Talonflame > Staraptor
3. Hawlucha > Buizel = Corphish
4. Goodra >= Torterra > Torkoal
5. Glalie > Gliscor > Noivern

Ash-Greninja is Ash's strongest regional ace bar none for 1 simple reason, It forced Diatnha to use ME. While it was apparent that Diantha was not fighting base Greninja seriously and just wanted to test its power, but as soon as it transformed (Imperfect), we see a clear shift in Diantha's tone and she herself implies that AG > base Gardevoir. Diantha doesn't use ME unless she thinks it's necessary with Pikachu's battle being a prime example. There is no evidence that implies Diantha's base Gardevoir is significantly weaker than the base versions of any other regional champion's ace. AG also had a very competitive match with an E4+ lvl Pokemon in Alan's MC X, whereas Infernape got OHKed by Flint's Infernape and while its blaze is very formidable, saying it would give Flint's Infernape a competitive fight is a big stretch. In addition, The above champion statement could also be made about the E4. Sceptile is very impressive with its most notable win being against a Darkrai at about 70% health (yes, even with dream eater healing taken into consideration) give or take 10%, but do you really see it forcing an E4 or Champion lvl Pokemon to ME, because that still seems like a stretch to me. It is harder to say though since Sceptile has never fought an E4 or Champion (though Grovyle did and got destroyed by Drake's Altaria).

Infernape was newly evolved, and it doesn't help that it faced off against the same species in Flint's Infernape. Flint probably knows every single strength and weakness in the Infernape species. Infernape went on to earn two wins against Volkner (even if Ash got lucky against Luxray), who basically is on par with Frontier Brains/low-E4s, and then got the hat trick against Paul.

I see Ash's Sceptile > Leprechaun's M-Sceptile, so I think he could give IKUZEfrog a helluva fight.

Regarding Hawlucha, it fainted to a move that essentially hit him with his strongest move (Flying Press) at x4 power (since it was SE on Slaking). Sawyer stating that Slaking was Hawlucha's counter heavily implies it was trained in bulk to be able to withstand an onslaught of attacks. Hawlucha had a great showing against Alan and lost due to a combination of thunder wave paralysis + staggering from the damage of missing HJK + a OHK move. Bisharp was also portrayed as 1 of Alan's stronger Pokemon, so I see no shame in that loss either. Like it or not, the narrative of showcasing Hawlucha beat Astrid's Mega Absol was done to symbolize Hawlucha's strength. I do wish we saw the full battle between them, but even if Ash's other Pokemon had dealt prior damage to Mega Absol, being able to actually KO a very strong Pokemon is still a commendable feat. A good example of this being Gliscor's KO of Paul's Drapion still being impressive despite Drapion being significantly damaged and fatigued from taking out half of Ash's team prior. Mega Absol clearly was very strong, since even Alan acknowledged its strength (though Alan's MC X wasn't quite E4 lvl at that time, but was still good enough to impress 1). Nothing against Buizel and Corphish, since both have had impressive battles, but they're still below Hawlucha.

Corphish did pretty good in the Hoenn League. Later, Corphish (and Swellow) defeated Frontier Brain Tucker's Arcanine/Swampert, and tanked the fire/water cyclone of doom. Corphish also defeated FB Anabel's Alakazam. These are all quality opponents. Lucha did well, but absolutely nothing definitive to put him clearly above Corphish.

As for Mega Absol...if only we saw the battle. The KO blow doesn't mean much if two other Pokémon softened M-Absol to be beaten easily. It's like how Smogonbird cleaned up Slaking since Lucha did like 70% of the work.


Regarding Goodra and Torterra. Torterra's most impressive GYM win was against Roark's Ramparados as a Turtwig and Goodra's was Clemont's Luxray. Now this is a matter of opinion, but I would say that Clemont's Luxray is stronger. Also you can't use the evolution argument, since It could be said that Turtwig got overall worse once it evolved, since it lost a lot of its speed. They both were able to significantly damage powerful Pokemon in the form of Drapion and Bisharp. Goodra's battle with Slurpuff had a lot of symbolism of Goodra's mental fortitude, since that battle showed Goodra could go toe to toe with a type that it once feared and that it could keep charging bide while staring flamethrower in the face (the fire would relate to Goodra's PTSD), so I'm not holding that tie against it. I would say they're around even with a slight edge to Goodra, since atleast it could knockout Pokemon in its final stage, though I wish we saw it in more battles to make better comparisons. Torkoal was really impressive against Brandon's Registeel, but given how consistently poor its battling performance is barring that, that I'd say it's easily Ash's weakest tank when compared to Torterra and Goodra.

Get rid of Suicide Mountain and Torterra would be sitting among the tier-2s. All those losses were to elite trainers (Palmer, Bertha, Volkner, Paul).

So a draw against a Slurpuff (you could make the case that it might have been Leprechaun's weakest Pokémon) and an assisting loss to Bisharp > nearly winning against the most powerful FB's Registeel?? I mean, sure, I'm in agreement that the only reason Torkoal isn't tier-5 is because of that one performance, so you could chalk it up as being an outlier performance. But let's not pretend Barney was super impressive either. It's one of Ash's most overrated Pokémon.
 

JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
I mean, have you seen some of his Pokemon's movesets? I mean, look at Greninja:

Greninja - Water Shuriken, Double Team, Aerial Ace, Cut

All low BP moves, no Dark STAB. Actually, now that I think about it, Scraggy didn't learn any Dark moves either, and Krookodile dropped Crunch from its moveset by the time the league came around. Why can't Ash embrace the Evil, writers? Why?

But yeah, Ash is the consummate loser, because if his journey ends, then they might have to *gasp* create a new protagonist! Honestly, I'd prefer it if we followed new characters in each region, Pokemon Adventures style. That way we could see actual growth, development, and arcs.
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
For Ash Greninja, you didn't provide counters for some of my arguments and the Flint counter isn't that good, since he just had his Infernape overpower Ash's with Mach punch. Had the battle been longer or maybe had Flint made Infernape aim for a particular body part, your argument would have had more substance. I can also agree that Ash's Sceptile is > than Shota's Mega Sceptile, but I see their battle far more drawn out with Sceptile struggling a lot more in comparison to AG, so I would still rank it lower than the latter. Just for the record, I'm well aware of All of Ash's Pokemon's battles and have already factored them in before making my responses. While I completely agree that Infernape and Sceptile deserve their place amongst Ash's TOP 6, but for reasons previously stated, I don't see them on AG's lvl. I will admit that both would give AG a good fight and would have a good shot at winning a 2 vs 1 scenario.

The reason why we consider BF wins so impressive is because Frontier Brains are narratively portrayed to be on a level above GYM leaders. Hawlucha is narratively portrayed as strong for beating a powerful Mega Pokemon (Alan said so). Think about it. They could have just as easily shown AG beating it and no one would have batted an eye so why bother showing Hawlucha doing it other then to illustrate that Hawlucha can also take on Megas. I mean if it is just supposed to be a call back from the movie then I can also suppose that like the movie Ash used a different Pokemon to fight each Pokemon Astrid sent out meaning that Hawlucha got the win all on its own. Even if Ash's other Pokemon gave Mega Absol prior damage, the Gliscor argument still holds.

I guess I could see Goodra and Torterra's battle going either way. I hope Torterra replaces rock climb and synthesis with better moves like earth power/bulldoze and rock slide/stone edge whenever it battles in the future.
Even taking your ranking of Torterra >= Goodra >= Torkoal still puts Kalos as the overall better team.

TBH I think the best teams from Kanto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Kalos differ marginally for the most part with the battles going either way though I would give the Kalos team a higher probability of winning when going against any other regional team primarily due to AG. For the most part we place Ash's Pokemon in the same tiers based on what I can see from your list though I guess we may have some disagreements regarding how the Kalos team fits in. I would personally put Ash-Greninja in Very High Tier 1 and Greninja in Low Tier 1. Hawlucha in Low Tier 2. Taloneflame in High Tier 3. Goodra in Low Tier 3 and Noivern in High Tier 4. I'm curious to know your opinion on this. I get that Goodra is way too overrated battle wise by the fan base, but having a Psuedo below Tier 3 just feels wrong even though Psuedo is just a fan term.
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
Sorry that I messed up the quoting
 
How did we go from Ash deserving to win the league to which of his region teams were the best? This thread got sidetracked ridiculously fast lmao.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
I re-watched XYZ 33 with official subs and Ash outright says Kalos is his best team which logically should be interpreted as best regional team and since Ash knows his Pokemon better than we do, I guess that settles the debate. Also you can't say he forgot his old Pokemon cuz this episode also reveals that he had contemplated getting 1 of his old Pokemon back. Sorry for discussing a topic not related to the thread.
 

Mrs. Oreo

Banned
But yeah, Ash is the consummate loser, because if his journey ends, then they might have to *gasp* create a new protagonist!

I don't think him being replaced due to winning a league would occur, cuz I don't think him winning a league would automatically make him a pokemon master or end his journey in the first place. He could've theoretically won a major league a long time ago and still continue challenging new gyms in other regions, but for some reason the writing staff hasn't let that happen despite how simple it'd be to do. :[
 

Alexander18

Dragon Pokemon fan
Ash deserves to win if he uses his best pokemon from previous regions to win. He would have done that in Kalos if he hadn't stick to just gen 6 pokemon.
 

nandermind

Active Member
Well if there was a league that Ash deserved to win it was this one or Sinnoh. Ash should have won Sinnoh if it wasn't for Trollbias, and he should have won this one if it wasn't for Alain and his Hax-level ZardX. Basically Ash has what it takes to win, but the writers are refusing to give it to him for whatever reason (Sinnoh made sense in order to keep Ash traveling in Unova, but this one is questionable since there is no official league in Alola, so winning this league would make sense.)

their reason always be same bruh


"ash cannot go to next region if hes champ"


cmon man

7-8 scenarios are bound to made ash can went to other region even tho he's champ

look at cynthia as example

she's a champ, but can wander anywhere
even go to unnova and stay for quite longer time... which is irrelevant for a champ if the writer state like that thing

so its not like they intentionally do that. but they dont want ash wins coz they are need him for milking money



p.s : thats why I canceled my po of pokemon sun
 

SoundVoltex

Well-Known Member
That's an incredibly petty reason to cancel a pre order lol. If you're salty at the anime then stop watching the anime, I don't understand how Ash losing the league effects the SM games at all.

I'm pretty sure people posting here are more emotionally invested in the anime than the games.

In Hoenn and Sinnoh, Ash lost to the eventual champion conference League right?
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
That's an incredibly petty reason to cancel a pre order lol. If you're salty at the anime then stop watching the anime, I don't understand how Ash losing the league effects the SM games at all.

It actually did, there where a lot of canceled pre-orders
 
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