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Does the Paul rivalry send a wrong message to kids?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by Halolady, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    I was never that fond of the TRio, especially Jessie.
    Majespectre likes this.
  2. Xenon Blue

    Xenon Blue No Hard Feelings

    Exactly, people tend to always focus on the fact that he messed up trying to train Chimchar and magnify it, even though that was his only true blunder. I don't see people criticizing Ash ruining Torterra's true potential and to an extent Buizel and just chalks it up to "the Pokemon is bad, not Ash". If Paul had his hand on Ash's Buizel, then Buizel would become a better Pokemon for sure. Different methods work for different Pokemon, and Paul's method just didn't cut it with Chimchar. Similarly, A lot of Ash's Pokemon would have thrived with Paul, and let's not pretend like Chimchar with Paul was weak, in fact it is stronger then a lot of Ash's basement dwellers.
  3. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    The way I see it, it's because Vegeta and Kaiba get punished by the narrative when they act like pricks, and their character development is seen as consistent. I'm with Rohanator on this one - I think the DP writers retconned Paul's character when the infamous Lake Acuity battle happened in order to make him look better.
    Majespectre likes this.
  4. Navin

    Navin MALDREAD

    Didn't Paul get punished though? Doesn't have any real friends. Got destroyed by Cynthia. Got destroyed by Brandon. Lost to Ash when it mattered. The Pokemon that he released came back and took down half his team in the process.
    Majespectre likes this.
  5. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    In my opinion, a Pokemon trainer should be a friend to his Pokemon, first and foremost.

    Only because the writers retconned his personality and swept his previous meanness under the rug.

    I just think it's morally wrong, and I don't care if it is effective.
    Majespectre and Benny™ like this.
  6. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    He doesn't care about having friends.
    He shrugged off his loss to Cynthia like nothing.
    And then cruelly humiliated Ash at Lake Acuity.
    His personality gets changed so that he doesn't have to feel bad about losing.

    No, I don't think he got punished. Not properly, at least.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
    Benny™ likes this.
  7. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    Paul just put his pokemon through intense training in ten days before the Lake Acuity Battle which is actually believable unlike with a yellow mouse that somehow managed to defeat a Regice and draw with a Latios spontaneously.
  8. Zipper4242

    Zipper4242 Bewear is the most powerful being in the universe.

    Considering that Paul is literally every single competitive player, I don't think so. I actually thought that Paul was a really bad guy during my childhood, when DP first aired, but now, I've come to the conclusion that he's just misunderstood and complex, which is what makes him such a great character, the likes of whom we haven't seen since DP ended and the character development went downhill (but I digress). Had they not had him grow as a character, then, yes, it would be bad, but considering that he really seems to have grown to work side-by-side (maybe even love) his Pokemon by the end, and that love is reciprocated, I think that it's actually showing a good message of open-mindedness and compassion (since, naturally, compassionate Satoshi beats him and proves that compassion and kindness ultimately always wins).
    Majespectre likes this.
  9. Yuugis Black Magician

    Yuugis Black Magician Well-Known Member

    Head Writer Tomioka Atsuhiro personally wrote all of the Shinji-focus episodes. There's a pretty deliberate development for Shinji over the course of the series. It's small, but it happens specifically because he wants to defeat Satoshi at their best. He loses to Satoshi and accept that, ready to start again.
  10. Daizy

    Daizy I call you honey

    Paul seemed to project his own anger onto his Pokemon by pushing them too hard which was a sadistic thing to do, but I can't hate his methods because he was successful throughout Sinnoh and he was a great trainer.
    Majespectre likes this.
  11. Thumbs2

    Thumbs2 Well-Known Member

    Vegeta literally had a mid life crisis, turned evil, killed hundreds, and nobody batted an eye.

    Kaiba's only punishment was maybe him being put in a coma, but he was never even remotely villified.
    Majespectre likes this.
  12. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    Let's not forget that in the episode where Chimchar was released, he was set up against a freaking Zangoose. You know, trauma can cause a lot of psychological pain. You won't tread someone with PTSD like the rest, so that's why Paul couldn't unlock Chimchar's potential.
    Majespectre likes this.
  13. Leonhart

    Leonhart Imagineer

    I don't necessarily feel that Shinji was projecting his own bitterness onto his team. He seemed sullen and stoic all the time, but I think his training style was practical and hardly any different from Akira's regimen from that old Kanto episode.
    Majespectre likes this.
  14. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    And its merely that...an opinion. Besides Paul is hardly the first, nor will he be the last, Pokemon trainer in the anime who prioritizes results over friendship. Not every trainer in the series is going to fit your or my idealized vision for what a trainer "should" be. It makes the anime more real to have characters that don't fit the mold appearing from time to time.

    That's called character development. And in Paul's case its not meant to be in your face but rather a more subtle thing.

    And Paul would say he doesn't really care what others think about his style. Because he prioritizes maximizing efficiency. Again a nuance of his character which once again adds to the diversity in the spectrum of trainers that have been showcased throughout the anime's run.
  15. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Well-Known Member

    Credit goes to doctorgecko--->>>>https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/78gdti/respect_paul_pokemon_anime/

    Background: Paul (Shinji in the original Japanese) is the main rival of Ash Ketchum during his journeys in the Sinnoh region. A year before the start of the Sinnoh series Paul recieved his first Pokemon, a Turtwig. Soon after the two watched as Paul's brother Reggie attempted to challenge Pyramid King Brandon for his frontier symbol so that Reggie could finally beat the Battle Frontier. Unfortunately Brandon managed to crush Reggie without losing a single Pokemon, and seeing this Paul began to become obsessed with only training the most powerful Pokemon. Paul then set forth on his journey, competing in the leagues of Hoenn, Johto and Kanto. And while he didn't win any of them he steadily grew in strength as a trainer. Eventually he decided to return to his home region of Sinnoh and compete in the league there. Soon after returning he encountered Ash Ketchum, and due to their conflicting trainer styles the two became rather tense rivals almost immediately. They would square off multiple times during their journeys in Sinnoh, finally culminating in the quarter finals of the Sinnoh League.

    Personality: Paul in many ways could be considered the opposite to Ash Ketchum. Paul for example has no interest in training up a weak Pokemon to be strong. Rather he would prefer to just catch the strongest Pokemon possible and not deal with the weaker ones, as shown by him catching several Starly and then releasing all but the one that knew aerial ace. He also does not really treat his Pokemon as friends, and instead is rather harsh to them and can put them through rather brutal training in order to make them stronger. Beyond this he can also be rather rude to other people and Pokemon, to the point his own brother refers to him as having a cruel streak, and even Team Rocket is taken aback by his attitude. However in large part due to interactions with Ash and friends, as well as learning that Ash had done what Reggie couldn't and beaten Brandon, Paul began to grow somewhat less mean. While not exactly friendly, by the end of the series he is at least somewhat more respectful towards his Pokemon and other people.

    Being a human in the Pokemon universe, Paul has demonstrated physical capabilities well beyond what a real life 11 year old can do. While he doesn't have all that many, there are still some of note.

    • As with all trainers he's able to react to and give commands around attacks no matter how fast they are moving, though this could just be talking is a free action

    • After being launched off a cliff, moves between multiple branches and rocks like a blur before sticking the landing
    • Casually side steps out of the way of a falling Gligar
    • Dodges a berserk Chimchar

    • Takes a long fall with seemingly no injury
    • Hit by his Electabuzz and Weavile flying into him and is fine a minute later.

    Trainer Strategy/Skill

    Basic Intelligence/Battle Style
    • Gets a basic feel for Ash's battle style after a single battle with weak Pokemon
    • Purposefully targets the legs of Roark's Cranidos in order to weaken it and win the battle
    • Is entirely willing to attack his ally if it means landing a hit on his opponent
    • Ash outright acknowledges there are no flaws in his battle strategy, and that his Pokemon recognize their roles and act accordingly
    • After seeing Ash's counter shield strategy once, adapts it into his own strategy and then uses it against Ash.

    • Purposefully lets Ash go first so that his Elekid can absorb an electric attack and power itself up
    • Uses dig to make Ash unable to tell where his attacks are coming from, and then anticipates his strategies in order to win
    • Takes advantage of Cynthia's Garchomp using giga impact in order to land a hit on it without it being able to fight back
    • Purposefully has an attack miss to cause Ash to become more reckless, and then leaves his Torterra open for attack so that he can lure Ash into a trap
    • Able to predict Ash's actions in battle, and structures his team specifically to counter Ash's
    • Purposefully battles in a way that keeps Ash from being calm, and takes advantage of his emotions to put him into bad match ups
    • Predicts that Ash will come up with a way for Buizel to escape a trap, and uses that opportunity to land heavy blows on Ash
    • Purposefully lets Ash's Torterra heal itself so that he can beat it in one hit and crush Ash's resolve.
    • Intentionally let his first two Pokemon get beaten so that he could determine Ash's team and strategy, and then predict's Ash's actions for a good portion of the battle.
    • Anticipates Ash's unusual strategies, as well as being behind him in terms of number of Pokemon

    Environmental Usage
    • Takes an advantage of the wind to avoid a strike from his opponent and land a hit on it
    • When facing a ground type with an electric type, has his Pokemon attack the field to damage his foe indirectly and win the fight.

    General Power
    • Defeats the gym leader Maylene with basically no effort
    • In his first league battle has a complete victory against his foe with a score of 3-0
    • Does the same thing to Barry, switching out his Pokemon to counter the latter
    • Cynthia (the champion of the Sinnoh region) fully excepts him to make it to the champion league.
  16. Yuugis Black Magician

    Yuugis Black Magician Well-Known Member

    None of Shinji's other Pokemon had the same issues Hikozaru did. I'm wondering if Shinji refused to give up on Hikozaru for so long because Reiji had a Hikozaru and Shinji wanted to have a Goukazaru just as strong as his? That would explain why Shinji kept Hikozaru so much longer than other failure Pokemon.
  17. Xenon Blue

    Xenon Blue No Hard Feelings

    The reason is because Chimchar had such a high ceiling that it was worth a shot to be patient with it. Despite Paul knowing it wasn't being effective with his training method, the prospect of having such a powerful Pokemon that can carry a team on it's own to winning a league, which it honestly would have if it wasn't for Tobias, was too much. He eventually gave up on the project after realizing it was going nowhere. He probably should have realized sooner that he was wasting his time with Chimchar, but hindsight is 20/20 and it's hard to completely blame Paul for his judgement to take the gamble. It still wasn't a complete liability, being able to take out Roark's Onix and put up a good fight against Cranidos.
  18. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    The difference is, in both Vegeta and Kaiba's case, the writing makes it clear that you're not supposed to agree with what they are doing.
    Majespectre and Benny™ like this.
  19. LilyTwo

    LilyTwo Well-Known Member

    I would agree with that if Paul didn't break the number one rule of the Pokemon universe: that Pokemon are friends and companions, and that it's wrong to only care about how strong they are.

    The Pokemon anime can't do subtle. The writers simply changed Paul's character on the run, and hoped that the viewers would forget about how cruel and abusive he was. All in order to spew some nonsense about "different training methods".

    Too bad people like AJ, Gary or Alain add to the diversity in a much more nuanced and tolerable way.
    Johtohfiller and Benny™ like this.
  20. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    Do you think the Champions treat their Pokémon like Paul did? I don't think Cynthia was fond of his methods. In the games, Lance criticizes Silver for not caring about his Pokémon.
    Majespectre likes this.

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