Double team. Strategy or luck

["L"]

Well on the moveset thread people have been saying that winning with double team is purely luck. I want to know what you think.

Example:
Scissor double teams a couple of times and baton passes to kaburaisu. Kaburaisu uses sand storm to raise evaision and holds bright poweder to lower your accuracy.

Would you call winning like this luck, or strategy

 

[blindskater]

Even if you use stratagey, you never know what pokemon your opponent will have. Winning battles is based on luck.

 

["L"]

My post was asking about using double team, would that be a strategy, and if it isnt considered one then accuracy reduction shouldnt be considered a strategical way to win either

 

[Johnny Blaze]

Its luck...when an opponent uses Double team sometimes my pokemon will hit it right after and sometimes it won't, it depends upon the accuracy of the move and just luck of the draw.

 

[SapphireL]

This is a poll btw. *moves*

Anyways, Double Team is PURELY luck. Even if you get it in 6 times, the opponent can still get you. It requires no skill. You're only hoping that the opponent doesn't hit you. It's a complete filler move and shouldn't be used at all.

 

["L"]

Yeah this is a weak defense, but in the battle frontier, one of the symbols is luck, all the frontier symbols represent a trait a trainer needs to be a master. If you dont manipulate luck, then you are missing a trait needed to be a great trainer.

Wow I just basically said it was all luck

3 people voted luck and 3 strateegy, and yet everyone here has said luck

 

[Horn Drill]

The three people who voted for "strategy" are obviously gay morons who like to play DDR and post in the "Attracted to Pokemon" thread. ._.

Double Team is pure h4x. It forces luck into the game and takes away all the skill. If you use it, then you automatically hate your mom and love buttsex with men. It's that simple, folks. =/

There's no possible way it can even remotely count as strategy since you can't control when its effect takes place. It's all up to luck. No control over effect = no strategy. Don't use it unless you actually want to be a *** and a n00b and a chump and a loser.

 

[Kikas123]

This is quite luck based, but there is only a few actual "stratagies, but they rely on:"
1. Levitate
2. Lightning Rod
3. Grodon/Kyorges Weather Effects
So it's pretty much all luck.

 

[nixkee]

it's ALL luck..sometimes it'll hit..sometimes it won't...simple...like the others said,it takes out the fun by just relying more on luck and less on strategy..

this move is really annoying specially when my enemy is ninjask and uses doubleteam consecutively plus its speedboost..such an annoyer..

btw,does the speed of the pokemon affects the evasion of the pokemon?and does it also affects the effectiveness of double team?cause i think it does...what do you say?

 

[skittykitty]

Luck

Double team is luck, if the accuracy goes down, the CHANCE of moves missing goes up, it does not assure a miss.Neither does evasion

 

[dark-rayquaza]

double team is look once that shiftry used 1 double team and i missed 8 times in a row

 

[Chimungus]

luck. well, i think so.

 

[Free Man]

What I'm about to say is based on the RBY generation, since I'm not familiar with other generations enough to comment yet.

Double Team on it's own is luck. However, it's all part of a Tank strategy - increase evasion and recover lost HP with Rest/Recover/Softboiled. This is a great way to make certain Pokémon (but only certain ones) increase their longevity and usefulness in battle.

Those who say Double Team (or the Double team/Rest combination) should be banned from battles (or that it's a "n00b" way of playing the game) are missing out on manipulating part of the game's mechanics to increase their chances of winning. Surely using any status/statistic-modifying move depends on luck? For example, lets say I used a Lapras's Confuse Ray to Confuse an enemy. I'm not just going to rely on the Confuse Ray working every turn - it would just be another part of my strategy to win, by decreasing the chances of the enemy getting a hit on Lapras. The same goes with the chance of not moving while Paralyzed - you wouldn't rely on it to help you win because it doesn't always work out that way, but it's part of the game's mechanics you can manipulate to increase your likelihood of winning.

So what's with all the evasion-modifyer hate? Are you saying that we should only use attacking moves that hit 100% of the time, so we won't be relying on luck to help us win? Even the amount of damage has an element of randomness to it, if you look into the formula used to work out damage ratios. In fact, why play at all?

Also, if you don't have a plan for taking out Double Teamers, you clearly need to do more training. I feel the same about people who refuse to battle against Mewtwo - if you don't have a strategy to take it down, then you need more work as a trainer. It's part of the game, so we should all learn to deal with it, and have fun working out how to counter the strategy of evading and recovering.

I'm not saying I'm a better game player than those who hate Double Team. I just think that it's an element of luck that works IN a strategy in order to make certain Pokémon more useful, and people who miss out on it because they refuse to rely on luck probably rely on it themselves to help them win matches, as I do.

If you've ever used an attacking move in the RBY games, you've relied on luck. Deal with it.

 

[Jorah]

Everything in the games are based on luck. Will Fire Blast hit? Will you get a critical hit? Will your Focus Band work? Will the opponent's Pokemon stay asleep? Like the person said up there, you don't have to rely on luck to win but you can put it into your strategy. And I don't think many n00bs would have Double Team on their Pokemon anyway, their Chariazard's are filled up with Overheat, Fire Blast, Flamethrower and Slash.

 

["L"]

What I'm about to say is based on the RBY generation, since I'm not familiar with other generations enough to comment yet.

Double Team on it's own is luck. However, it's all part of a Tank strategy - increase evasion and recover lost HP with Rest/Recover/Softboiled. This is a great way to make certain Pokémon (but only certain ones) increase their longevity and usefulness in battle.

Those who say Double Team (or the Double team/Rest combination) should be banned from battles (or that it's a "n00b" way of playing the game) are missing out on manipulating part of the game's mechanics to increase their chances of winning. Surely using any status/statistic-modifying move depends on luck? For example, lets say I used a Lapras's Confuse Ray to Confuse an enemy. I'm not just going to rely on the Confuse Ray working every turn - it would just be another part of my strategy to win, by decreasing the chances of the enemy getting a hit on Lapras. The same goes with the chance of not moving while Paralyzed - you wouldn't rely on it to help you win because it doesn't always work out that way, but it's part of the game's mechanics you can manipulate to increase your likelihood of winning.

So what's with all the evasion-modifyer hate? Are you saying that we should only use attacking moves that hit 100% of the time, so we won't be relying on luck to help us win? Even the amount of damage has an element of randomness to it, if you look into the formula used to work out damage ratios. In fact, why play at all?

Also, if you don't have a plan for taking out Double Teamers, you clearly need to do more training. I feel the same about people who refuse to battle against Mewtwo - if you don't have a strategy to take it down, then you need more work as a trainer. It's part of the game, so we should all learn to deal with it, and have fun working out how to counter the strategy of evading and recovering.

I'm not saying I'm a better game player than those who hate Double Team. I just think that it's an element of luck that works IN a strategy in order to make certain Pokémon more useful, and people who miss out on it because they refuse to rely on luck probably rely on it themselves to help them win matches, as I do.

If you've ever used an attacking move in the RBY games, you've relied on luck. Deal with it.

Great you agree with me, I think...
Its luck if thats all you use, but if you combine it with Attract, confusion, and paralysis, then it could be somewhat considered a strategy(somewhat)

Besides isnt relying on attract and paralysis to not hit luck, and opponent hitting self with confusion luck? But if you add these together it would be considered a strategy wouldnt it, so why not double team.

One of the sets I made was toridepusu:swagger/metal burst/block/rest.

Swagger would confuse trhe foe, it was all luck, but incase they hit me I would have metal burst, and block would keep them from escaping. This is a pretty crummy strategy, but it is still a strategy.

Even relying on raising your critical hit ratio is luck, but thats considered a strategy.

Stat up moves rely a bit on luck. When you use them there is an off chance your opponent might kill you in one hit, so thats luck aswell

Manipulating your chances to win is what this game is about.

How many of you had this used on you:Cute charm(infatuated me), Confusion, paralysed, and lowered accuracy, +opponent uped evasiveness.

For a person to go as far as to manipulate luck this much, I would call it a strategy.

People shouldnt be called n00bs for using luck, remember that Luck is one of the frontier symbols, and those symbols represent the traits a trainer needs to be successfull.

Like Jorah said, nearly everything in the game is based on a bit of luck, some more then others, and n00bs usually use high powered moves, not things based on luck.

posted by Horn Drill

The three people who voted for "strategy" are obviously gay morons who like to play DDR and post in the "Attracted to Pokemon" thread. ._.

Double Team is pure h4x. It forces luck into the game and takes away all the skill. If you use it, then you automatically hate your mom and love buttsex with men. It's that simple, folks. =/

There's no possible way it can even remotely count as strategy since you can't control when its effect takes place. It's all up to luck. No control over effect = no strategy. Don't use it unless you actually want to be a *** and a n00b and a chump and a loser.

What a homophobe, anyways my statemen above says that you can controll it by adding more and more: Paralysis+Double Team+Attract=One annoyed person. See how they control it by putting thhe odds on their side. That actually happened to me once and it ****** me off!

 

[Free Man]

Great you agree with me, I think...
Its luck if thats all you use, but if you combine it with Attract, confusion, and paralysis, then it could be somewhat considered a strategy(somewhat)

Besides isnt relying on attract and paralysis to not hit luck, and opponent hitting self with confusion luck? But if you add these together it would be considered a strategy wouldnt it, so why not double team.

One of the sets I made was toridepusu:swagger/metal burst/block/rest.

Swagger would confuse trhe foe, it was all luck, but incase they hit me I would have metal burst, and block would keep them from escaping. This is a pretty crummy strategy, but it is still a strategy.

Even relying on raising your critical hit ratio is luck, but thats considered a strategy.

Stat up moves rely a bit on luck. When you use them there is an off chance your opponent might kill you in one hit, so thats luck aswell

Manipulating your chances to win is what this game is about.

How many of you had this used on you:Cute charm(infatuated me), Confusion, paralysed, and lowered accuracy, +opponent uped evasiveness.

For a person to go as far as to manipulate luck this much, I would call it a strategy.

People shouldnt be called n00bs for using luck, remember that Luck is one of the frontier symbols, and those symbols represent the traits a trainer needs to be successfull.

Like Jorah said, nearly everything in the game is based on a bit of luck, some more then others, and n00bs usually use high powered moves, not things based on luck.

posted by Horn Drill


What a homophobe, anyways my statemen above says that you can controll it by adding more and more: Paralysis+Double Team+Attract=One annoyed person. See how they control it by putting thhe odds on their side. That actually happened to me once and it ****** me off!

Well said - manipulating the game's mechanics to increase your luck is indeed a form of strategy, and what most competitive battling is all about.

In regards to the last thing you said - I also consider annoying opponents a form of strategy, as it stops them from fully concentrating on the game and how to win the match. So that makes Double Team even more desirable a move to use!

 

[Horn Drill]

What a homophobe, anyways my statemen above says that you can controll it by adding more and more: Paralysis+Double Team+Attract=One annoyed person. See how they control it by putting thhe odds on their side. That actually happened to me once and it ****** me off!

I'm not a homophobe, I'm a haxophobe. I can't help it if using Double Team makes the game gay, can I?

And using Double Team, confusion, and Atract all at once isn't strategy: It's retarded. "Annoyers" don't work. I don't know about you guys, but I don't like 10 hour-long Pokemon battles with completely illegitimate and luck-based outcomes.

Free Man, strategy and luck are complete opposites. Read the definitions of the words. Attempting to utilize hax to win is unskilled and disgraceful. It takes the fairness out of the game and lets the lesser player win. Yes, you can't eliminate all luck-based aspects from battles, but purposefully pushing hax into the game with things like Double Team, Focus Band, Attract, Confuse Ray, Brightpowder, Quick Claw, ect is just wrong.

Competitive battling is about skill, not luck. Try it before you twist it by saying otherwise.

 

[WolfCyber]

Double Team...I could go either way. Yeah it is annoying to never be able to hit something because of this move but hey, that's how the game's played. You use whatever moves you want (that are legal). You wont hear me cursing if I lost because my foe relied on DT. If people want to use DT, why not? Its no different from boosting any other stat to a near-perfect stage, wasting turns you could be using to attack, like Swords Dance. I've seen teams win just because of SD and Agility,, so the teams that want to use DT should be able to. I see some strategy coming from that.

 

[Free Man]

And using Double Team, confusion, and Atract all at once isn't strategy: It's retarded. "Annoyers" don't work. I don't know about you guys, but I don't like 10 hour-long Pokemon battles with completely illegitimate and luck-based outcomes.

What makes it "retarded"? It helps people to win matches. Personally I love battles to go on as long as it takes in order for a winner to be determined. I've had matches lasting for 45 minutes, and I'm sure that's by no means a long time compared to other members of this forum. Patience is extremely important in competitive battling.

Free Man, strategy and luck are complete opposites. Read the definitions of the words. Attempting to utilize hax to win is unskilled and disgraceful. It takes the fairness out of the game and lets the lesser player win. Yes, you can't eliminate all luck-based aspects from battles, but purposefully pushing hax into the game with things like Double Team, Focus Band, Attract, Confuse Ray, Brightpowder, Quick Claw, ect is just wrong.

What is "unskilled" about working out how to make your Pokémon more likely to win a match? Why is it wrong to manipulate the game's mechanics as much as possible to increase your chances of winning? The moves are there to be used freely, so there's nothing illegitimate about them. I doubt you only use attacking moves with a 100% guarantee of a hit... do you?

Competitive battling is about skill, not luck. Try it before you twist it by saying otherwise.

I've done enough competitive battling to know that skill is indeed more important than luck in winning. But manipulating luck through detailed knowledge of the game's mechanics in order to win takes hard work, and skill in learning how and when it's best to use moves like Double Team.

 

["L"]

Luck is when you use a OHKO move and it hits.
Skill is when you combine a OHKO move with Lock on/Mind reader.(only one I can think of that can do that is smeargle)

Using Double team+Attract+Paralysis+confusion is a strategy. It puts the odds in your favour. When you use swords dance, you might get unlucky and get knocked out before you attack.

Horn Drill, being an annoyer is a strategy, as much as I hate annoyers. When they annoy you you dont think properly and may not use your strategy anymore. Using doubleteam in combination with other attacks doesnt mean it isnt strategy, it is a strategy that is based on luck, and by putting the odds in your favour, then your opponent becomes the unlucky one.

Strategy is also being able to manipulate everything in your arsena, Stats, EVs, Attacks, Items, and if you can luck.

Now a person who only uses double team without anything to back it up is relying on luck. If they put in rest, then that would be really annoying, and using an annoyer is strategy.