Doubles RMT

[Thowra]

After my last VGC, where I saw a lot of surprising tactics, I've now come up with a new team that will hopefully counter most of those threats. My current team still isn't completely stable however; my counters normally end up getting killed before they can do anything, allowing the enemy to sweep me. In particular trick room and rain teams give me tremendous grief. I've been testing this team on nuggetbrick, the stimulator VGC. Obviously in actual VGCs my pokemon will not have perfect IVs as I can't RNG on a 3ds, but I'm still hoping people can give me some advice on the threats to my team. So, here is my current team:

Furret w/choice scarf
Ability: Frisk
Nature: Jolly (+spe, -spA)
EVs: 252hp/4att/252spe
Moves:
-Trick
-U-turn
-Follow me
-Protect

I saw a guy in the last doubles VGC with a 1700+rating that had a furret. Had it not been for his furret tricking a choice scarf onto my cresselia, I would have won. When that battle ended and I had a closer look at why such a random pokemon was effective, I realised that the guy was practically scouting with frisk.
So yeah, frisk to tell me one of the items my opponent's holding (and therefore allow me to possibly determine what set). If I see a support pokemon, I trick (unless it's a prankster pokemon in team preview, in which case I'll lead with cresselia and skill swap away the prankster ability first). If both opposing pokemon are sweepers, I'll u-turn out.
Follow me is for when I've finished tricking; furret's teammate will probably appreciate a free turn of setup. The last move is there because I can't think of anything else - furret is not going to live long anyway so I highly doubt he'll live past a trick.

Cloyster w/white herb
Ability: Skill link
Nature: Jolly (+spe, -att)
EVs: 4hp/252att/252spe
Moves:
-Protect
-Shell smash
-Rock blast
-icicle crash

The standard shell smash set. I've heard rumours of how deadly this pokemon can be after a shell smash boost, so I decided to try it out myself. Unfortunately I'm not so good at predicting so cloyster tends to die a lot on my hands, but I did manage to sweep someone's team with shell smash cloyster once, and hopefully many more times to come.
White herb to bring his fragile defenses back up after a shell smash boost. Unfortunately, it gets burned up by intimidate.

Whimsicott w/Iron ball
Ability: Prankster
Nature: timid
EVs: 252hp/36def/20spD/200spe
Moves:
- Sunny day
- Switcheroo
- Taunt
- Giga drain

Sunny day to counter annoying weather and help volc. Switcheroo using iron ball to remove the levitate ability from all variants of rotom, clip thundurus' wings as well as slow down enemy terrakion and latios for my garchomp to KO. Taunt to shut down support and hopefully other pranksters, and giga drain in the event that I get taunted.

I'm giving him a positive speed nature and EVs in speed so he can outspeed enemy whimsicott and thundurus. I'm not sure just how many points of EVs I should give him to do that though (I need enough to outspeed the neutral 252EV speed prankster whimiscotts).

Cresselia w/mental herb
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Bold (+def, -att)
EVs: 200HP/144Def/20spA/144spD
Moves:
-Ice beam
-Energy ball
-Skill swap
-Toxic

She is purely hypothetical as my in-game cresselia is quirky and I haven't restarted my game yet
Skill swap is one of her best moves, sometimes it really disrupts the opponent. The only problem I have is that cresselia is so slow. Often the skill swap comes too late (READ: pokemon using substitute/taunt).
She used to run icy wind for team support, but I found that my sweepers can generally outpace opponents (barring Latios and Terrakion) so I changed it to ice beam for greater damage. My support pokemon are too slow to really benefit from the opponent's speed drops unless icy wind's been used like 3 times in a row which no right minded opponent will allow you to do.
I gave her energy ball because there's no one on my team that can take on politoed, and rain teams (well, swift swim kingdra) completely destroys my team.
The toxic was only added later on because once my volc and chomp died, I got completely walled.
While sitrus berry was useful, in the online battles I played prankster sableye often taunted me. So I switched to mental herb - I can take away Sableye's prankster with skill swap and render it completely useless.

Volcarona w/focus sash
Ability: flame body
Nature: Timid (+spe, -att)
EVs: 4HP/252spA/252Spe
Moves:
-Heat wave
-Bug buzz
-Hurricane
-Protect

The most versatile sweeper on my team. Pairs with umbreon for sunny day, or latias with rain dance. Protect for when umbreon sets up sunny day, or just general all round protection.
He originally held fire gem, but I found her got killed way too easily. Plus tyrannitar was originally on my team and he was the guy holding focus sash, but since tyrannitar didn't go well and I removed him I have a spare slot for focus sash.
By the way, the in-game volc I bred has 66 HP ice, I'm not sure if I should use that instead of bug buzz, because opposing dragons are a pain.

Garchomp w/rocky helmet
Ability: rough skin
Nature: Jolly (+spe, -spA)
EVs:4HP/252Att/252Spe
Moves:
-Earthquake
-Dragon claw
-Dragon tail
-Protect

Dragon tail is the riskiest move here - it's used to stop trick room as well forcing out cloyster's threats. Basically, it's one huge gimmick but with massive rewards if predicted right (which I still need to get the hang of). Earthquake and dragon claw are standard VGC garchomp's attacks.
While people may think rocky helmet is gimmicky, I think it stacks up with rough skin wonderfully. A bulky metagross I once failed to KO through earthquake died after it meteor mashed garchomp.

Threats
Trick room, and rain teams.

Rain teams: Kingdra. Whimsicott's the best answer with priority sun and trick iron ball, but an ice beam from any rain team sweeper can be deadly. Once my cotton ball falls, it's practically game over.

Trick room. Most of them carry mental herbs so whimisicott's taunt is no good. Once it's up, I have a really difficult time stalling.

Individual threats
Prankster sableye and taunt. Completely shuts down cresselia and umbreon. Plus nothing is super effective on it...

Latios. Only whimisicott's iron ball can check it, and maybe cloyster if I predict right and shell smash...

Heatran and substitute. I struggle to even break those darned subs...

There are so, so many others that I can't really list them all, but playing online Sableye, Heatran and Latios has murdered my team many times over so I thought they needed a mention.

 

[Thowra]

Bump. I replaced Hitmontop with Gallade, he seems like a better counter but I haven't had the chance to test him yet...

 

[Thowra]

Wow. Just out of curiosity, does no one fight doubles here? Is that why there are no raters on this thread?

 

[Dr.Chaos]

I'm not much of a doubles player, I do know some from watching VGC matches and ingame battles so I'll help you as much as I can.

Thundurus seems to be a large threat as it can use its Prankster Taunt on a lot of setup moves. Latios is also looking really strong as it can outspeed and KO a lot of your team. Also, opposing Cresselia could be a problem as well since really only Volcarona can take it down.

Sorry, I can't help more I don't really play VGC, but it's unfortunate that you're not getting any help.

 

[T-Bolt]

First of all, How can Umbreon wall anything without a recovery move? Leftovers may provide some recovery, but Umbreon will still probably be 3HKOed by many pokemon.

Use Moonlight or Wish over Yawn. It'll greatly increase Umbreon's defensive capabilities. And you may want to use Taunt over Sunny Day, To try counter Trick Room. However keeping Sunny Day would work too, as sunny weather increases the Hp restoration of moonlight.

However, if you want a solid Trick Room counter, I'd suggest using Whimsicott-

Whimsicott@ Mental Herb
Ability- Prankster
Nature- Calm nature
252 Hp/ 128 def/128 SpDef
-Encore
-Tailwind
-Light Screen
-Protect/ Sunny Day

Prankster gives all these moves priority. Encore forces the pokemon to use the same move it did the previous turn. So if the pokemon used Trick Room the previous turn, by using Encore, it would be forced to remove Trick Room. It can also be used on Hitmontop, so that if it uses Fake Out the first turn, Encore will force it to use it again, forcing the opponent to switch out

Light screen, Halves the damage done by special moves, so if you've got some Trouble with moves like Surf, from Threats such as Ludicolo and Kingdra on Rain Teams, Light Screen can help reduce the damage done by them.

Lastly, the Mental Herb makes sure that whimsicott isn't stopped by Taunt, Tailwind Increases the speed of the pokemon on your team, Sunny can be used on Whimsicott instead, because Prankster allows it to use sunny day before Volcarona attacks.

Maybe you could substitute Cresselia for Whimsicott?

And Gallade isn't a good counter to Rain Teams. I'd suggest using Ludicolo-

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability- Swift Swim. Nature- Modest
252 SpA/ 252 spe/ 4 Hp
-Fake out
-Hydro Pump/ Scald
-Ice Beam/ protect
-Giga Drain

Ludicolo's Fake Out can help any of your other pokemon set up weather, for example Umbreon/ Whimsicott could use Sunny Day to stop rain teams, or if you aren't fighting a rain Team, Latias could be used as a partner and set up Rain, to activate Swift Swim. Giga drain is for Politoed and Rotom W

Ice Beam is for Latios, once swift swim is activated, Ludicolo outspeeds most Latios sets, and KOs it with Ice Beam.

 

[Atrocious]

VGC matches last like what, 6-10 turns at max so trying to wall them out seems pretty pointless. I really don't even know where to start with this team but I see Garchomp + Cresselia so why not try that. They paid up really well together with Garchomp firing off powerful EQs while Cresselia supports it with Icy Wind to lower the speed of things like Lati@s, Terrakion and stuff Garchomp normally cannot outspeed.

Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 232 SpD
- Icy Wind
- Helping Hand
- Psychic
- Reflect

EVs allow you to maximize special bulk while allowing you to 2HKO Hitmontop. You can swap EVs and nature to Bold and swapping SpD EVs to Def ones if you want to be physically bulky. Icy Wind is explained above. Helping Hand allows it to secure KOs for Garchomp that let's it fire off powerful EQs. Reflect is just another support move that can be swapped for Light Screen or Moonlight. Psychic allows it to deal some damage and not be total taunt bait.

Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Dragon Claw

This is pretty much straightforward Garchomp in VGC. EQ is the must here with powerful STAB that can be boosted by Cresselia. Rock Slide gives it that great coverage alongside EQ and Dragon Claw is a consistent STAB option and Protect allows it to protect itself from various Fake Outs and such.

Umbreon? Especially with that moveset is a no IMO. Fighting moves run rampant in VGC from the likes of Hitmontop, Terrakion, etc and Umbreon won't like any even if it somehow gets off a Charm. Walling in VGC is useless. Sigh, I hate swapping Pokemon from peoples team but I feel here it's really needed. Not really sure what to suggest. I'd try to snag a Sand Stream Tyranitar to help mess with Rain teams while having a somewhat reliable option against TR users with its pretty bad speed when things like Victini is are being used in TR teams.

Tyranitar @ Chople Berry / Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Stream
Nature: Brave (+ Atk, - Spe)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Low Kick
- Protect

3AM here so I'll rate later as I'm tired but this team needs quite a bit of help IMO. I feel you're trying to handle your threats too much instead of playing to your style which just opens you to other weaknesses. You over do the rain thing and now you're vulnerable to other playstyles.

EDIT: Quick note before I sleep, if you decide to use TTar, swap Garchomp's nature to Sand Veil.

 

[Thowra]

Umbreon was only on the team because of one match I had where the opponent completely walled me with his umbreon. Although I'll have to admit I don't use him that much at all - but the few times he's being played (when I see no scizor or hitmontop in team preview) he is actually very efficient. Then again I have 3 pokmeon on my team weak to bug, which makes scizor a huge threat.

Does Yache berry actually do anything? Because I ran it on my garchomp once and a starmie OHKOd it with ice beam anyway...so after that I just grew resigned to the fact that garchomp will lose against an ice type.

I've just replaced umbreon and gallade with whimsicott and furret. I'll have to admit though, I kind of want ludicolo on the team as the rain counter. But ludi takes neutral damage from ice, which is what my team has a bit of trouble with. I need a pokemon that resists water, ice and dragon. Is empoleon any good?

I know furret may sound really strange, but I saw this player at the last doubles vgc with 1700+ rating that used a furret, and it had a choice scarf that completely crippled my cresselia, so I thought I might give it a try.


I think I've realised why I have such problems on my team - there are only 2 sweepers. The other 4 are support. Volcarona and Garchomp have every type in the metagame covered with either neutral or super effective attacks, so when I see a team in team preview I pick those two, and then choose 2 out of my 4 supports that can go up the best against the enemy. It works alright on a balanced team, but it really looses against fast offensive (latios+terrakion on the same team, or swift swim kingdra in rain) or hyper offensive teams.

 

[T-Bolt]

I haven't used Empoleon on any of my teams before, so I wouldn't know about its effectiveness.

When I saw Furret on your team, and you said you needed a sweeper, so I thought you might want to try this out.

Cloyster@ Life Orb/ White Herb
Nature- Jolly
128 Hp/252 Atk/ 128 spe
-Shell smash
-Icicle spear
-Razor Shell/ Rock Blast
-Protect

Well, once i was wiped out by a combo of Amoongus with Rage Powder and a Crustle with shell smash, so I thought the same would work with Follow me Furret and cloyster.

Once Shell Smash is used, Cloyster becomes a huge threat, capable of taking out almost anything that doesn't resist its moves. Thus Cloyster may be targeted by your opponant, and that's what protect is for.

Icicle spear is STAB. So is Razor shell, but you may want to use Rock blast, so that you aren't walled by water types. Cloyster resists water and ice, and can sweep Dragon types after a Shell Smash, so its pretty close to what you're looking for.

EVs are to outspeed max speed Latios after a Shell Smash. Nature is so you don't compromise on bulk.

I'm not really sure what pokemon you'd want to remove, Latias maybe?

 

[Thowra]

I haven't used Empoleon on any of my teams before, so I wouldn't know about its effectiveness.

When I saw Furret on your team, and you said you needed a sweeper, so I thought you might want to try this out.

Cloyster@ Life Orb
Nature- Jolly
252 Hp/252 Atk/ 4 Hp
-Shell smash
-Icicle spear
-Razor Shell/ Rock Blast
-Protect

Well, once i was wiped out by a combo of Amoongus with Rage Powder and a Crustle with shell smash, so I thought the same would work with Follow me Furret and cloyster.

Once Shell Smash is used, Cloyster becomes a huge threat, capable of taking out almost anything that doesn't resist its moves. Thus Cloyster may be targeted by your opponant, and that's what protect is for.

Icicle spear is STAB. So is Razor shell, but you may want to use Rock blast, so that you aren't walled by water types. Cloyster resists water and ice, and can sweep Dragon types after a Shell Smash, so its pretty close to what you're looking for.

I'm not really sure what pokemon you'd want to remove, Latias maybe?

Does cloyster outspeed positive speed 252EV latios after a shell smash? Because latios is by far one of the biggest threats to my team due to its blistering speed (terrakion is the other but my garchomp can generally take a close combat from it and KO with earthquake)

 

[T-Bolt]

Does cloyster outspeed positive speed 252EV latios after a shell smash? Because latios is by far one of the biggest threats to my team due to its blistering speed (terrakion is the other but my garchomp can generally take a close combat from it and KO with earthquake)

Oops, I made a mistake with the EVs. It's 252 speed, not Hp. It's been corrected now.

And yes, cloyster easily outspeeds Latios after a Shell Smash.

Here's the link- (see additional options and team comments)

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/cloyster/vgc2012

I've changed the EVs too. if Latios is the main pokemon you want to outspeed, about 120 speed EVs are needed (i'm not sure though, so you might want to check on that). dumping the rest into Hp will give you some bulk, which Cloyster's going to need to pull of a Shell Smash, since Volcarona has the Focus Sash.

 

[Thowra]

Oops, I made a mistake with the EVs. It's 252 speed, not Hp. It's been corrected now.

And yes, cloyster easily outspeeds Latios after a Shell Smash.

Here's the link- (see additional options and team comments)

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/cloyster/vgc2012

I've changed the EVs too. if Latios is the main pokemon you want to outspeed, about 120 speed EVs are needed (i'm not sure though, so you might want to check on that). dumping the rest into Hp will give you some bulk, which Cloyster's going to need to pull of a Shell Smash, since Volcarona has the Focus Sash.

Wow, I just tried shell smash cloyster in pokemon showdown beta and he can practically KO everything that doesn't resist icicle crash and rock blast provided he can get a shell smash up. I gave him a white herb so he wouldn't lose spD and defense, but I have to admit he is really fragile anyway. He dies to just about any special attack, and experienced battlers will know better than to hit cloyster with physical attacks, so is a white herb really needed?

 

[T-Bolt]

Wow, I just tried shell smash cloyster in pokemon showdown beta and he can practically KO everything that doesn't resist icicle crash and rock blast provided he can get a shell smash up. I gave him a white herb so he wouldn't lose spD and defense, but I have to admit he is really fragile anyway. He dies to just about any special attack, and experienced battlers will know better than to hit cloyster with physical attacks, so is a white herb really needed?

No, the white herb usually works best with more defensive variants (like the one I posted). It's actually pretty hard to use Cloyster without a Focus Sash.

Predicting and using protect at the right time is usually the key to using Cloyster, since most trainer's know about Cloyster's destructive capabilities and often target it. You might have to sacrifice Furret to get that Shell Smash.

Well, if you don't use swords dance a lot on Garchomp, you could switch it for Dragon Tail. Use protect on Cloyster and Dragon Tail on whatever's threatening it. Then Shell Smash the next turn.

It's a gimmicky strategy that requires a lot of luck, but can be dangerous if it works.

 

[Thowra]

No, the white herb usually works best with more defensive variants (like the one I posted). It's actually pretty hard to use Cloyster without a Focus Sash.

Predicting and using protect at the right time is usually the key to using Cloyster, since most trainer's know about Cloyster's destructive capabilities and often target it. You might have to sacrifice Furret to get that Shell Smash.

Well, if you don't use swords dance a lot on Garchomp, you could switch it for Dragon Tail. Use protect on Cloyster and Dragon Tail on whatever's threatening it. Then Shell Smash the next turn.

It's a gimmicky strategy that requires a lot of luck, but can be dangerous if it works.

Nah, I only swords dance whenever I see slower opponents that garchomp can KO, but lately it seems everyone on pokemon showdown's caught onto what I'm doing, because lately all these hydreigons and chandelures keep attacking me whenever I use swords dance, so I've been thinking of switching SD for another move.

My garchomp used to have dragon tail as a way of getting rid of trick room users, but I often found myself out-predicted and left with a dead garchomp. I never thought to use dragon tail as a support for cloyster, will definitely give this a try!