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Doubles team for Battle Spot with Typhlosion

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I've been running this team for a while with some decent success in Battle Spot Doubles.

Torkoal @ Focus Sash
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Sp.Atk, 4 Sp.Def
Nature: Quiet
IVs: 31 HP, 31 Def, 31 Sp.Atk, 31 Sp.Def, 0 Speed
- Eruption
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Explosion

Torkoal is the setup pokémon. Its job is to set sun and activate Typhlosion's Flash Fire with its Lava Plume. It goes for minimum speed to outslow everything else on the field on turn one. Focus Sash is there to prevent it getting KOd on the first turn by powerful Z-Moves or super effective hits like Nihilego's Power Gem, but I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile swapping for Heat Rock. Explosion is used to get Lilligant in safely after setting up Typhlosion while Typhlosion uses Protect. Eruption is a power move in case the opponent goes for Trick Room.

Musharna @ Mental Herb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP, 140 Def, 116 Sp.Def
Nature: Sassy
IVs: 31 HP, 31 Def, 31 Sp.Atk, 31 Sp.Def, 0 Speed
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
- Moonlight

Musharna's job is to survive the first turn or first two turns of attacks and then use a slow Baton Pass to get Typhlosion in safely as Torkoal uses Lava Plume. As Musharna is so slow (it outslows min speed Slowbro, Snorlax, and Wishiwashi) it usually goes after the opposing side, with only Torkoal and Shuckle being somewhat common pokémon in doubles that are slower. If the opposing side is not threatening (or packs Fake Out), I use Calm Mind on the first turn while Torkoal uses Protect, and then use Baton Pass and Lava Plume, passing the Calm Mind boost to Typhlosion as well. Musharna tends to be more than bulky enough to survive virtually anything on the first turn with this defensive investment, and the Mental Herb is to stop Taunt.

Lilligant @ Occa Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Sp.Atk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Nature: Timid
-Solar Beam
-After You
-Helping Hand
-Sleep Powder

Lilligant is the supporting pokémon, designed to come in after Torkoal goes down to assist Typhlosion in its destruction. Helping Hand helps it against particularly bulky foes while After You helps it against faster foes like Tapu Koko and Alakazam. Sleep Powder shuts down troublesome foes like Heatran, and Solar Beam is the offensive move.

Typhlosion @ Firium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Sp.Atk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Nature: Modest
-Eruption
-Flamethrower
-Focus Blast
-Protect

Typhlosion is the big powerhouse of the team, capable of destroying almost anything in a single hit with the proper set up. With Torkoal activating the sun and Flash Fire and Musharna getting it in safely at full health, Eruption becomes a massive weapon of destruction, KOing almost anything that doesn't resist it, and 2HKOing even bulky resists like Incineroar, it even OHKOs Cresselia with Helping Hand support. The power is amplified even further if I set up Calm Mind on Musharna first. Flamethrower is used when Typhlosion's health is low as a reliable offensive move. I prefer not to use Lava Plume next to Lilligant and I don't have access to ORAS move tutors for Heat Wave. Focus Blast OHKOs Tyranitar in the sand and 2KOs Heatran, and also hits Houndoom. Firium Z gives it a one-off extreme nuke that OHKOs pretty much everything not immune in the sun with Flash Fire activated, hitting roughly twice as hard as Eruption does at full health. It's especially useful to get through bulky foes after Typhlosion's health goes down, or if the sun somehow gets broken.

Overall the team functions well, winning most battles in the Battle Spot, but I'm wondering if I should replace Focus Sash on Torkoal with a Heat Rock, and maybe go for a more bulky spread on the Sp.Def side. I often notice that the sun just lasts one or two turns too short, especially if I go with a Calm Mind set up, and Lilligant's support suffers without that weather. It loves the Chlorophyll Sleep Powder and Chlorophyll After You to shut down opponents before they get to move, and Solar Beam is an awkward two-turn move without it. I don't really have the move slots to spare to teach Sunny Day to either Lilligant, Torkoal, or Typhlosion, and Musharna is unable to learn it. Also, I'm looking for a better item for Lilligant. The Occa Berry is situational and doesn't seem to really pull through against powerful fire attacks in the sun like Heatran's Heat Wave which KO regardless. I was considering Wide Lens to help Sleep Powder's accuracy, but I'm not sure.
 

EKZ1505

Well-Known Member
Pretty cool team!

Before I share my thoughts on everything individually though, who are the last two team members?
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Last two are an Alolan Marowak and a Hariyama, but I'm not using them. They're just a diversion to make opponents think I'm running Trick Room, as Musharna has access to it. I've already seen a few people try to set their own Trick Room in response on the first turn to cancel that out (primarily with Cresselia). And Hariyama also is a small psychological threat to opponents that have Tyranitar in their team.
 

EKZ1505

Well-Known Member
I think you really need to rethink your last two slots if you want the team to maximize its potential in climbing the ratings ladder. While a VERY cool strategy, you are severely weak to rain and sand (and other things like priority and lack of coverage pose potential issues), and really only may have a couple turns to try and sweep since it takes a couple turns to setup already.

Heat Rock on Torkoal will give you a bigger window to sweep, but I would suggest a bulkier spread on the special side so you can still survive and use Lava Plume.

What does Musharna's spread survive?

I don't think Occa Berry helps much when you're giving your opponent the sun to boost their fire moves. Focus Sash is a good option should you change Torkoal's item, and the grass z move has been used a lot for good power. I think your speed might be a bit overkill, but I honestly have not used in Battle Spot Doubles (only VGC) to know what new threats there are for it. Just something to pay close attention to. Leaf Storm has been a more common option for grass STAB, but of course it has drawbacks too.

What gives you trouble during testing?
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Musharna survives almost anything. It survives Tectonic Rage from Adamant Landorus-Therian, avoids a 2KO by Scarf Landorus-Therian's U-Turn, has only a small chance of a 2KO by Mega Alakazam's Shadow Ball, and takes about 55% from Flamethrower from Timid Mega Charizard Y. These are among the most powerful attacks available in the first turn. Most foes don't tend to double-focus as they tend to also pay attention to Torkoal's potential Eruption threat, and if they do double-focus on Musharna they tend not to have the power available on both of their teammates to break through it.

Rain and Sand do tend to give me some trouble. I'll upload some battle video codes.

Against sand with Landorus-Therian and Tyranitar: AXUW-WWWW-WWW9-6V84
Switcheroo annoying Musharna's setup: X5QG-WWWW-WWW9-6V8D
Against a very fast Mega Alakazam: FHVG-WWWW-WWW9-6V8Z
Against hail and sleep blocking with terrains: 3RXW-WWWW-WWW9-8XHG
Against Trick Room and rain: 26NG-WWWW-WWW9-8XHK

Against Trick Room and sand that I actually lost, I made an error at the end: XTQG-WWWW-WWW9-8XHS

Lack of coverage is only a problem to a certain extent. As the fourth video shows if you put enough power into Typhlosion it even destroys Tapu Fini with Inferno Overdrive after Fini has used Calm Mind.

It's generally the combination of Trick Room and foreign weather that gives me trouble, and from Battle Tree testing also status that hinders the setup (primarily confusion hitting Musharna, as confusion gets passed by Baton Pass and also makes the moment of the Baton Pass unpredictable), but confusion isn't all that common in the Battle Spot.

As far as what Lilligant outruns, it outruns Scarf Tapu Koko, which is among the fastest things I can encounter as far as I know, but it might be a bit overkill indeed, and I don't think Tapu Koko usually runs Scarf. Maybe outrunning Scarf Greninja is good enough, Scarf Greninja has seen some action in doubles. It currently also outruns Scarf Pheromosa with a neutral speed nature, but Pheromosa is pretty much non-existent in doubles as far as I can tell, let alone with a Scarf.

What kind of 5th and 6th team members would you suggest? I was considering maybe Tapu Lele for priority protection, Mega Charizard Y for a secondary sun setter, or maybe Whimsicott as an alternative to Lilligant with Prankster Sunny Day, Helping Hand, and Tailwind to replace After You.
 
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EKZ1505

Well-Known Member
I don't think Mega Alakazam is even a threat in doubles as I never see it and surviving 2 U-turns from Landorus-T is not that important, but I just asking about what Musharna survives to see if the spread was maximized for something specific. It's great that it survives all those attacks, but it has great bulk regardless and cleanly survives some of those hits, so the extra investment to one of the defenses may be unnecessary. I have not gotten a chance to look at any of the videos, and it's a small sample size regardless, so I'm not sure what combination of attacks you may face typically, but there's a decent number of common super-effective attacks from Pokemon like Aegislash, Hydreigon, Bisharp, Mimikyu, etc. that I would be potentially worried about OHKOing or just needing a bit of chip damage. Ultimately it comes down to how you play and adapt to your opponent's team, so it's possible you are fine.

I do think outspeeding Scarf Koko is overkill, BUT it is a thing, so if you want to be prepared for that 1% of times your opponent has it, it is still nice to feel confident you outspeed regardless. Scarf Greninja is not as much of an issue since people are not as afraid of Scarf Lando-T anymore and Scarf Phero is so rare in doubles, so I would say a good general point to reach is speed creep Pokemon trying to outspeed Scarf Tapu Lele.

A mega would definitely be good to add. I love Char-Y but I'm not sure if he really adds anything other than the sun. It would help with weather wars, but you need to mega it first to have the sun, and you generally don't want to have to rely on switching it in against rain and sand teams. Those are all good ideas to try though, so it's definitely worth testing.
 
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Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
The third video I posted actually had a Mega Alakazam as an opponent, and it troubled me somewhat as it managed to Trace Lilligant's Chlorophyll.
I haven't actually encountered Aegislash as a lead in doubles yet, but I think Aegislash is more common in singles than doubles. And I think a lot of foes are hesitant to bring Aegislash along when I've got several fire types in my team.
Hydreigon is a bit annoying as Timid variants outspeed Typhlosion, but even Modest Specs Hydreigon doesn't OHKO Musharna with Dark Pulse unless it crits, and it gets OHKO'd by Inferno Overdrive in Sun with Flash Fire. I'm actually considering going with Timid instead on Typhlosion, just to outspeed stuff around that speed tier and reduce reliance on Lilligant a bit.
Bisharp I haven't actually seen at all either on the battle spot, but now that I'm doing the damage calculation Adamant Life Orb variants do manage to get a OHKO on Musharna with Knock Off. Not sure if it's relevant enough to change the spread, especially considering Bisharp would leave itself open to Torkoal when attacking Musharna.
As for Mimikyu, Jolly variants without an item (for instance, Sash or Mental Herb variants) fail to reach the 2KO with Shadow Claw, and Torkoal's Lava Plume opening breaks its Disguise, after which it gets promptly KOd by Typhlosion.

In general I primarily suffer from surprises, as well as some combinations of threats. I've encountered a Lycanroc with Roar that managed to hit Typhlosion while it was Protecting to bring Lilligant in, apparently Roar hits through Protect. And Trick Room Alolan Marowak is an issue. Heatran can be problematic, although Lilligant can usually put it to sleep, and Typhlosion OHKOs with Helping Hand Focus Blast. Latias and Latios can also be problematic, as they both outspeed Typhlosion and have the bulk to survive Eruption, and in Latias's case even Inferno Overdrive for bulky variants (95.4-112.9% damage on variants without defensive investment). I need Lilligant to put them to sleep. Combinations like a sleep-preventing terrain (misty or electric) and Heatran are particularly annoying, although fortunately Latias and Latios don't get the luxury of avoiding sleep with terrain.

For the additions, in any case it'll take some time until I can try them out, I'd have to breed some first and then get them to level 50. In the meantime I just want to share one damage calculation from a situation I actually encountered earlier today:

+1 252+ SpA Flash Fire Typhlosion Inferno Overdrive (200 BP) vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile in Sun through Protect: 186-219 (106.8 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It was the last pokémon on their team, and they were stalling for time with Protect while I still had my full team and the battle was already won. It's incredibly satisfying to deny the Protect stall by just OHKOing through their Protect.
 

EKZ1505

Well-Known Member
Aegislash is currently 9th on the doubles rankings (and 13th in singles) on Battle Spot, so it is fairly common. You're completely right about your fire moves being a threat, but between threatening the OHKO on Musharna (over 50% of Aegislash carry the ghost z move-more on that shortly) and Wide Guard also being common, it's completely viable to bring it. Honestly the main selling point of Torkoal and Typhlosion typically is Eruption (under Trick Room/Lilligant support and Scarf/speed control, respectively), so I can see the opponent bringing a Wide Guard to deal with it...all the opponent needs honestly is to stall out your sun turns, and losing even a couple can lose the battle.

Again my concern with Hydreigon (ignoring double targets) is the z move. Just like Aegislash, over 50% of them carry the dark z move. Mimikyu has a chance to OHKO as well, though at least only a quarter even run any z move. But again, when you're so reliant on one strategy, taking your last 2 slots seriously is important because high level opponents will be able to prevent your strategy or overcome yours with their own.

I'm not a fan of relying on luck either, but that's just me. Seems like landing Focus Blasts or Sleep Powders is the only way to deal with certain threats :/

Edit: Regarding the last 2 slots, I think you can go two ways. Either double down on your current strategy with something like the Charizard or Whimsicott, or add a new element to the team. Trick Room would actually be great to have either as a late-game changeup or a powerful lead, and Hariyama works great for both setting it up and being a huge threat after with Guts+Flame Orb.
 
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TyphlosionDUH

New Member
The team looks pretty cool, except for one thing, maybe choice specs for even more damage AKA:eek:verkill or choice scarf to outspeed pokemon that are about to setup with stealth rock
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
The team looks pretty cool, except for one thing, maybe choice specs for even more damage AKA:eek:verkill or choice scarf to outspeed pokemon that are about to setup with stealth rock
I've run this team a lot, and choice items just aren't effective with the way Typhlosion runs. It needs to be able to switch moves, especially Protect is fairly vital given how reliant it is on keeping its health high. If the enemy has faster pokémon than Typhlosion, I need a turn to Protect to bring in Lilligant, either with Torkoal's Explosion or just by switching. Stealth Rock is something that you occasionally see in the Battle Tree in doubles, but in the Battle Spot it's almost non-existent. And those that do run Stealth Rock tend to lead with it, while Typhlosion usually only gets to make its first move on the second turn, I lead with Musharna and Torkoal.
 

Archstaraptor

Team Builder / RMT
I'll echo what EK says about those last slots, and the weather weakness!
From experience using Typhlosion in Gen5, I personally appreciate Blaze more than Flash Fire for the self-sufficiency. You can run helping hand on an ally for a more reliable 1.5* boost. I have ran this firium flashfire sun stack in a previous doubles comp (tiny tourn: Torkoal and Chandy) and whilst it hits super hard the dependence on Torkoal to hit you first can be a bit annoying, especially if you want to avoid taking damage and keep non-Z-Eruption max strength! Consider options such as fissure>explosion and quick claw on Torkoal, to shift certain difficult matchups in your favour.
Historically I've paired a tailwind setter next to Typhlosion,so one with sunny day and/or a fire move might be of interest to you. Whimsicott, Mandibuzz, whatever has a favourable matchup vs. sand and rain, it should serve you well.

What you have at the moment is solid though,explosion into Lilligant is a nice momentum grab, I'm just flinging ideas at you in case they are useful :p


And yeah, Choice Typhlosion is particularly not great in doubles.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Sorry for getting back at you so late. It's been a while since I've actively used this team, notice that this thread is over a year old (as long as the mods don't shut it down for being necro'd I'm fine with it). The team has changed a bit since I made this thread, I'll just summarise what I've changed:

-Lilligant now holds Focus Sash, is Modest, and has sufficient speed to outspeed Adamant Scarf Garchomp (I think I EVd for that, not sure, would have to do the numbers again) in sunlight, max Sp.Atk, and rest in HP.
-Torkoal now has Heat Rock and knows Sunny Day instead of Explosion. The Heat Rock helps to have sun last throughout the battle. Explosion was primarily used to get Lilligant in safely, it wasn't doing all that much damage (especially with Intimidate being quite common). But in practice I noticed that most opponents actively focus on Typhlosion in that second turn, realising it's the bigger threat (especially if Torkoal's already weakened, ergo, wouldn't have a strong Eruption left). This combined with the Sash allows me to usually do a regular switch and have Lilligant survive. Typhlosion can go for an immediate Eruption in this turn if it is faster than the enemy, or go for Protect if it's not.
-Musharna now has Telepathy instead of Synchronize. Telepathy is situational but allows it to avoid Lava Plume damage if it is somehow prevented from passing (like unexpected Fake Out). I'm also running Weakness Policy instead of Mental Herb. While daring and opening it up to Taunt, it is surprisingly bulky and if it takes super effective damage on the first turn it will pass the boost to Typhlosion. Typhlosion at +2 with Sun and Flash Fire is ridiculous, OHKOing most bulky resists like Tapu Fini (depends on build), Suicune (depends on build), Mega Salamence, and Figy Berry Incineroar with Eruption. Inferno Overdrive turns more into a nuke to use on a predicted Protect, as it OHKOs most things through it on neutral hits.

I've experimented with using Umbreon instead of Musharna. Although much faster, Umbreon does have more effective bulk and lacks the Ghost and Dark weakness which are occasionally nuked with Z-moves (and Alolan Marowak's Shadow Bone) as EZK mentioned. Fighting and Fairy weaknesses can also be nuked, but they're rarer as Z-moves in doubles in my experience (Sacred Sword from Kartana does slightly over 50% damage on average, to give an idea of how much damage it takes when it's not a Z-move). Umbreon also can't get Taunted by Whimsicott and it is immune to flinches from Fake Out thanks to Inner Focus. On the downsides, Umbreon is quite fast (it's 63 speed at level 50), can't set up Calm Mind, and doesn't have the offensive presence nor the Trick Room bluff that Musharna has. I'm not sure which of the two is actually better, I'm considering running both (with Musharna on Mental Herb, Umbreon on Weakness Policy) and just picking one in Team Preview depending on the enemy team.

Whimsicott I've experimented a bit with, although I'm not sure on the final moveset or build. The problem with it as speed control instead of Lilligant is that Lilligant immediately speeds up Typhlosion the turn it can use a move. Whimsicott's Tailwind (or any other Tailwind/Icy Wind/Charjabug String Shot*, etc) only affect the turn order the turn after. Typhlosion often already Protects on the turn I'm switching out Torkoal, using Protect again to then get speed control active is very unreliable and something I'd rather not do, I'm missing a turn there which makes that setup more vulnerable.

*haven't tried Charjabug, but Battery boosting Typhlosion even further would be neat, and I think it's quite bulky on Eviolite, comparable to Toxapex.

Anyway, as I've said, this isn't my primary team any more. I've been playing a lot with Suicune, Minun, and Xurkitree lately, and I reckon that just runs better. It doesn't have this ridiculous power (seriously, OHKOing stuff like Tapu Fini and Incineroar with Eruption is kind of insane), but it runs more reliably. I might make a thread on it later when I've got a bit more time.
 
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