You really think goodra would have even touched charizard if the mega shuriken of death just made him barley flinch? The bottom line is ash only lost because charizard x is pokemon's baby right now and alain's is treated to be literally on the level of legendaries.
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Down to the Fiery Finish (934)
- Thread starter Serebii
- Start date
You really think goodra would have even touched charizard if the mega shuriken of death just made him barley flinch? The bottom line is ash only lost because charizard x is pokemon's baby right now and alain's is treated to be literally on the level of legendaries.
MysticLeviathan
Member
I think you're overthinking this. Ash lost because he was destined to lose. You could argue that Greninja should've put on a better performance against Charizard. Having the type advantage shouldn't be overlooked. I don't think Ash did anything really wrong to lose, he just had to face a Gary Stu and is being written by people who don't want him to succeed.
MysticLeviathan
Member
I'm surprised you guys are even talking about the TF arc, as if that matters, as if that changes anything. Honestly, I"m hoping no one in Japan watches the TF arc so the rating turn to trash, so maybe the writers get a clue that having your protagonist constantly lose, and constantly coming up with more obnoxious ways to make your protagonist lose, and the overall trolling, is not enjoyable for the audience.
Emperor Empoleon
Honor of Kalos
Full overview; In a way I feel sort of mixed about this.
On one hand, another lost League really begs the question of why I came back into the series with XY...Now, I don't think that winning is everything, or that Ash's loss here makes him a worse or failed character. Since the beginning of the show, Ash has always been 'A winner at life'. And the same even applies here. Alain and Charizard are a superior team, but Ash isn't the one being duped by the antagonists...
However there's a larger picture that I'm looking at. If the writers truly have no intention of allowing him to push beyond Leagues on his journey - even here in Kalos when he's reaching heights like never before, with something of a narrative backing him up - then why should I care? If they're just going to keep on plugging in these last second opponents who topple over him, then why keep up with these Tournaments and Badge Quests for years and years?
I don't completely sympathize with all of the salt, but it isn't coming from a bad place. Kalos had fans waiting in anticipation because, for the first time, it seemed like they really cared. And Ash was doing better than ever. But now we know, it's just more of the same.
Looking at this League by itself though...Part of me is glad that he lost. Having Ash win in such a short Tournament without any of his old crew, friends, or family members around just feels wrong. Poorly executed. Not worth it. I'm also glad that Special!Greninja didn't continue its hot streak, because I thought for a while that it was grossly over-hyped. And yes, even more than this Charizard. No other Pokemon gets shared visual perception or enhanced movements from a link to their trainer. No other Pokemon has ever been able to leave the reigning Champion in a state where they're helpless (even Charizard's Blast Burn did jack all to Steven's Metagross with type advantage). No other Pokemon has characters or prophecies regularly telling us about how great and special and unique it is. I don't like the extent of the exaltation, so I'm glad that it isn't flawless in its complete form after all.
And I was happy with Alain's performance too. I like the way he thought back to Mairin before the final attack, and I am a shameless MegaZard X stan. Seeing it struggle against multiple hits and throw them right back out was fun for me. And I really loved that piece of music that plays when Charizard is Mega Evolving...Beautiful.
But like I've said, dude had no place here. I would've preferred a different outcome.
On one hand, another lost League really begs the question of why I came back into the series with XY...Now, I don't think that winning is everything, or that Ash's loss here makes him a worse or failed character. Since the beginning of the show, Ash has always been 'A winner at life'. And the same even applies here. Alain and Charizard are a superior team, but Ash isn't the one being duped by the antagonists...
However there's a larger picture that I'm looking at. If the writers truly have no intention of allowing him to push beyond Leagues on his journey - even here in Kalos when he's reaching heights like never before, with something of a narrative backing him up - then why should I care? If they're just going to keep on plugging in these last second opponents who topple over him, then why keep up with these Tournaments and Badge Quests for years and years?
I don't completely sympathize with all of the salt, but it isn't coming from a bad place. Kalos had fans waiting in anticipation because, for the first time, it seemed like they really cared. And Ash was doing better than ever. But now we know, it's just more of the same.
Looking at this League by itself though...Part of me is glad that he lost. Having Ash win in such a short Tournament without any of his old crew, friends, or family members around just feels wrong. Poorly executed. Not worth it. I'm also glad that Special!Greninja didn't continue its hot streak, because I thought for a while that it was grossly over-hyped. And yes, even more than this Charizard. No other Pokemon gets shared visual perception or enhanced movements from a link to their trainer. No other Pokemon has ever been able to leave the reigning Champion in a state where they're helpless (even Charizard's Blast Burn did jack all to Steven's Metagross with type advantage). No other Pokemon has characters or prophecies regularly telling us about how great and special and unique it is. I don't like the extent of the exaltation, so I'm glad that it isn't flawless in its complete form after all.
And I was happy with Alain's performance too. I like the way he thought back to Mairin before the final attack, and I am a shameless MegaZard X stan. Seeing it struggle against multiple hits and throw them right back out was fun for me. And I really loved that piece of music that plays when Charizard is Mega Evolving...Beautiful.
But like I've said, dude had no place here. I would've preferred a different outcome.
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Xenon Blue
No Hard Feelings
I guess my other hope was that if Ash did lose I didn't want him to feel ok with it. Like maybe break down, possibly crying that he was one Pokemon away from winning the league and now it's all for nothing. But instead he is smiling at the loss... Yea you can't win anything with that kind of mentality.
GLTSRY
Sorry not sorry for my smugness
Well, Dragon Pulse is super effective and Bide would've caused massive damage... But yeah, stupid 100% Guillotine Bisharp
Lord Trollbias
Y'all Salty Bishes
Say what you want., but Alain's Bisharp is by far one of the most badass Pokemon to show up in the series period.
LonelyShadow
A Guy
Was Lysandre so upset over Ash's defeat that he decided to unleash Hell upon Lumiose City?
Either way, the Team Flare invasion will overshadow the Kalos league just as many people expected. I mean, the trophy Alain was holding it's gone! He probably gave it away to some random little kid just like Paul did to Azumarill.
Either way, the Team Flare invasion will overshadow the Kalos league just as many people expected. I mean, the trophy Alain was holding it's gone! He probably gave it away to some random little kid just like Paul did to Azumarill.
Xenon Blue
No Hard Feelings
Oh yea that Bisharp put in work. Kinda feel bad for Goodra though, he returned only to barely do anything.
greninjamaster
Well-Known Member
LOL you seriously want that for Ash? Just to say he's got a title? No the more likely route is simply Alain redeems himself and him and Ash team up to save everyone. His battle with Ash has changed him for the better as a person.
Haunter ゴースト
Well-Known Member
It'll be interesting to see if anything else comes of the League.
Hell even in BW Cheren talks to his class about how Ash placed in the Top 8.
Hell even in BW Cheren talks to his class about how Ash placed in the Top 8.
Hahahaha! When I said that the writers would create hype and then surprise us just like in the Charizard X vs. Y clashdown nobody believed me. I think that the desire of many of you for Ash to win clouded your judgement. I'm happy that Ash lost, that's what I hoped for anyway, since I don't like Ash that much. However, I wasn't absolutely sure that he'd lose until the last scene when Charizard started falling down (it's always like this in this anime - whenever a Pokemon starts falling down a little, it's gonna end up standing and the opposing Pokemon losing). Alain is a great trainer and he fully deserved it. Also, Goodra got what it deserved being Ash's weakest Pokemon and all. Bisharp and Charizard were amazing. Can't wait for the Team Flare arc, it looks like it's going to be amazing.
Oh, and if you don't want to watch the series just because Ash lost, then go ahead. I recall that people were saying the same thing after Ash lost to Tobias and then ended up watching the anime after all.
Oh, and if you don't want to watch the series just because Ash lost, then go ahead. I recall that people were saying the same thing after Ash lost to Tobias and then ended up watching the anime after all.
Soniman
Break the Limit
Yeah I hate this now that ive had time to rumminate
Im sick to death of XY’s blatant ratings traps with baiting ******** like this. First it was the Ash/Serena’s date (barely a date, Ash wasnt with Serena for like half the episode), then it was Ash/Serena’s dance (they dont dance), and now it’s KALOS LEAGUE VICTORY (ash losses because…Greninja was tired??), im sick of it. Its even worse here because there was prior buildup, there was actual foreshadowing, the ****ing narrator was basically like “will Ash win his first League!?!??!” as if to get people watching this embarrassment because they know XY is doing **** ratings wise.
Im sick of Ash’s attitude being nothing but generic happiness and smiles 90% of the time and he’s only allowed to show negative emotions in one (adtmetedly pretty good) arc. He didnt show any amazement that he was in the finals, he didnt show any disappointment that he lost.
Its really sad because Sawyer had probably the most realistic and genuine reaction to losing the League yet for some reason Ash is just “yeah it’s fine, whatever ill get stronger”, I know Ash is a positive guy, I get it, but cmon YOU LOST IN THE ****ING FINALS, CANT YOU BE A LITTLE BUMMED OUT ABOUT THAT???? It’s like the writers know that Ash will never achieve his dream so they dont care and they project that onto Ash not caring (expect in the Greninja Arc where he TALKED ABOUT HOW BLESSED AND FORTUNATE HE WAS TO BE A TRAINER AJLERNEJKNREA) and makes no efforts to improve himself other then having empty platitudes about getting stronger (watch him get reset in SM)
Im also pissed that Goodra and Noivern got no wins just to result in this, what was the point in Goodra comming back if you give him no victories or anything? What a absolute waste.
What was the point in rushing this League if you were gonna have Ash lose anyway? At least let us see all his ****ing battles.
And I can’t wait for ALL the casuals who were invested in this match to once again turn against Ash and call him a shitty loser, wont that be fun???
Im just…****ing frustrated. This couldve been an amazing moment for Pokemon fans, anime fans, Ash fans (especially since it’s the 20TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE FRANCHISE) and its all just SHAT away because the writers have a ****ing visceral fear of having Ash succeed in anything. If they take him all the way to the finals and have him still lose, I give up, this is why we have headcanons, I have officially lost all faith Ash will ever win a League, this is the miserable state this episode put me in.
This episode in a vacuum wasnt terrible, just painfully mediocre. Its more buildup to the TF Arc then a League finale. in fact that’s this League in general, less about Ash’s goal and dreams, more about hyping up Team Flare’s stuff.
I still feel like Tobias was way worse writing wise but id rather watch that because it’s more entertaining and I had no expectations Ash would win in the ****ing first place.
Im sick to death of XY’s blatant ratings traps with baiting ******** like this. First it was the Ash/Serena’s date (barely a date, Ash wasnt with Serena for like half the episode), then it was Ash/Serena’s dance (they dont dance), and now it’s KALOS LEAGUE VICTORY (ash losses because…Greninja was tired??), im sick of it. Its even worse here because there was prior buildup, there was actual foreshadowing, the ****ing narrator was basically like “will Ash win his first League!?!??!” as if to get people watching this embarrassment because they know XY is doing **** ratings wise.
Im sick of Ash’s attitude being nothing but generic happiness and smiles 90% of the time and he’s only allowed to show negative emotions in one (adtmetedly pretty good) arc. He didnt show any amazement that he was in the finals, he didnt show any disappointment that he lost.
Its really sad because Sawyer had probably the most realistic and genuine reaction to losing the League yet for some reason Ash is just “yeah it’s fine, whatever ill get stronger”, I know Ash is a positive guy, I get it, but cmon YOU LOST IN THE ****ING FINALS, CANT YOU BE A LITTLE BUMMED OUT ABOUT THAT???? It’s like the writers know that Ash will never achieve his dream so they dont care and they project that onto Ash not caring (expect in the Greninja Arc where he TALKED ABOUT HOW BLESSED AND FORTUNATE HE WAS TO BE A TRAINER AJLERNEJKNREA) and makes no efforts to improve himself other then having empty platitudes about getting stronger (watch him get reset in SM)
Im also pissed that Goodra and Noivern got no wins just to result in this, what was the point in Goodra comming back if you give him no victories or anything? What a absolute waste.
What was the point in rushing this League if you were gonna have Ash lose anyway? At least let us see all his ****ing battles.
And I can’t wait for ALL the casuals who were invested in this match to once again turn against Ash and call him a shitty loser, wont that be fun???
Im just…****ing frustrated. This couldve been an amazing moment for Pokemon fans, anime fans, Ash fans (especially since it’s the 20TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE FRANCHISE) and its all just SHAT away because the writers have a ****ing visceral fear of having Ash succeed in anything. If they take him all the way to the finals and have him still lose, I give up, this is why we have headcanons, I have officially lost all faith Ash will ever win a League, this is the miserable state this episode put me in.
This episode in a vacuum wasnt terrible, just painfully mediocre. Its more buildup to the TF Arc then a League finale. in fact that’s this League in general, less about Ash’s goal and dreams, more about hyping up Team Flare’s stuff.
I still feel like Tobias was way worse writing wise but id rather watch that because it’s more entertaining and I had no expectations Ash would win in the ****ing first place.
Xenon Blue
No Hard Feelings
So should I make room for the once-deserted "This league and series is crap in general" wagon? It's not too late~
doofinc
get rillaboomed
Pretty cheesed that ash lost. The hype + best regional team + best development + third time's the charm + title bait should've meant he won but of course not.
The fact that Goodra came back to tie a Slurpuff and get shafted by Bisharp is disappointing. I do like that Goodra did end up helping Greninja get the easy kill on Bisharp but I would have much rather have Goodra beat Bisharp then fall to Charizard. The fact that Charizard still beat Greninja despite Greninja landing significantly more hits than Charizard just feels like plot convenience and like the writers don't have another way to continue Ash's journey without him losing, even though they have done so after Orange Islands and Battle Frontier.
The fight between Greninja and Charizard, however, was really good. Animation on point and loved how Greninja used the Water Shuriken as a sword. It would be nice if they could explain that Fire Shuriken though (more false hype too).
A note about the ending, it's interesting to see that Ash is surrounded by all his friends while Alain is left sitting alone by himself. Not sure what to make of it but interesting.
Overall, 4/10. Forever salty that he didn't win this league but the fights were still pretty good. Also still hype for Flare.
The fact that Goodra came back to tie a Slurpuff and get shafted by Bisharp is disappointing. I do like that Goodra did end up helping Greninja get the easy kill on Bisharp but I would have much rather have Goodra beat Bisharp then fall to Charizard. The fact that Charizard still beat Greninja despite Greninja landing significantly more hits than Charizard just feels like plot convenience and like the writers don't have another way to continue Ash's journey without him losing, even though they have done so after Orange Islands and Battle Frontier.
The fight between Greninja and Charizard, however, was really good. Animation on point and loved how Greninja used the Water Shuriken as a sword. It would be nice if they could explain that Fire Shuriken though (more false hype too).
A note about the ending, it's interesting to see that Ash is surrounded by all his friends while Alain is left sitting alone by himself. Not sure what to make of it but interesting.
Overall, 4/10. Forever salty that he didn't win this league but the fights were still pretty good. Also still hype for Flare.
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Eduken
Member
I don´t understand this, in the first series they told us "is ok for the kids to admire a character that will loses sometimes" but Ash never wins! so its like "Kids you will be always loser like Ash"
Its was one of the most view seasons of the series and for this, maybe, the alola one will be the less.
The ultimate market is Japan right? Someone know the reaction over there? Is the same feeling of disappointment?
Its was one of the most view seasons of the series and for this, maybe, the alola one will be the less.
The ultimate market is Japan right? Someone know the reaction over there? Is the same feeling of disappointment?
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EmphaticPikachu
A tired little girl~
They stopped trying to surprise us the moment the internal thought connection thingy ended. That was too early imo, they could have tried way harder. They should have kept it going until the end, instead of this bs.
The battle wasn't even that intense anyway, some ideas were really good but there seriously was no tension the moment the music stopped. It's how I felt.
knightwolf09
Well-Known Member
Right about now is the time I decide to logical and optimistic with certain episodes that people respond negatively to cause there's something to appreciate it, but right now....I can't. I can't think of anything to appreciate. I am salty as well. I and many other fans actually had faith in Ash and kept stating reasons why he should win. We didn't listen to the cynicists that never had faith in him to begin with. And the writers just proved us wrong and them right. I am legitimately upset. Ash had no reason to lose her. The character build up, Ash-Greninja, the morality between the two, the fact he already lost to Alain twice and is more than likely not going to battle him again after this episode, and the writers just said screw it. Who on earth thought this was a good decision?! The writers are going to lose so much support after this. You literally just made people lose reason to continue watching the anime, and for what? Tradition? It should've never been a tradition in the first place! And for all those saying "Of course he was going to lose, having him win is writing him off the series" I'm tired of stating this, IT REALLY ISN'T! Winning one tournament does not make you a master. Beating the champion is more on the lines of being master. And Ash will never get that chance now. Everyone just got the impression that winning must make him a master because they always make him lose for no good reason. And it's the same here. No good ****in REASON! All I can say is I felt like I wasted my time. There was no reason I can appreciate it otherwise. Now I have to tell my friend the battle results, and he's going to laugh in my face for having faith. Way to make people feel stupid writers. It's gonna take a lot of convincing to make me watch Sun and Moon at this point, cause it will feel like a pity win, cause he literally can't lose.
Also last tid bit. The writers for this episode are the same ones that did B/W by the way. I suppose that's a huge reason why this ended so badly. Try to have a nice day after this.
Also last tid bit. The writers for this episode are the same ones that did B/W by the way. I suppose that's a huge reason why this ended so badly. Try to have a nice day after this.