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Down to the Fiery Finish (934)

Zya

ロバート
I'm really sad. There was no reason he should lose there.
 

phanpycross

God-king
Yes, the BW writers bruteforced their way into the studio, and forced the animators to change the ending at gunpoint.

God, the XY fanbase has literally zero spine.
 

Blood Red

1996-2023
I don't consider the XY series as a whole bad. In fact, I enjoyed it most of the time. However, the League is truly disappointing. No more excuses can support it, it has been truly a mess. The only positive things were the animations, Sawyer's battles and the first part of this match. The rest was average to mediocre at best.

And that just sucks so much. What a pathetic League to wrap up my favorite series...
 

Dragalge

"Orange" Magical Girl
Say what you want., but Alain's Bisharp is by far one of the most badass Pokemon to show up in the series period.

[IMG139]http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/xy/934/DP99.jpg[/IMG139]

Simply amazing indeed. Bisharp looked very great with all the moves it did throughout the whole match such as how it ducked under Hawlucha's High Jump Kick.
 

Vidar89

Well-Known Member
They actually were. That's the worst part.

Ouch, who thought it would be a good Idea to bring in the B/W Writers for such an important Episode.

There are quite a few Problems I have with Ash losing and the Reasons are already explained here. We had a very good Pokemon Anime, Ash is at least as competent as in his Sinnoh Days. Smogonfrog can even overwhelm the Mega of a freakin Champ, the League was rushed to the End of it, Depression Arc, Episode Title etc etc.

Also now in the Battle. Charizard gets hit by quite a few Effective Moves including a Water Shuriken powerful enough to cut Legendary Pokemon in half and that Charizard barely flinches from it oO

The amount of Damage that Charizard endured is not normal and waaaay over the top.
 
Maybe this warrants a dedicated thread and I may do that and expand on it here, but I'll put it here for now.

For me, I'm trying to figure out how to feel about the series as a whole. Because it's clear this episode is significant to the series as a whole in that it solidifies that Ash will never win anything really important. Everything from the buildup many episodes prior to the episode title to everything surrounding the fight, other trainers and Ash's Pokemon along with the supposed strides Ash made, and you have to wonder if there's really a point to it all if Ash will never win.

For me, I'm someone who cares about the black and white aspect of winning, especially since Ash's ultimate goal is to become a Pokemon master, and every season, his main goal is to win the region's league. The big issue is the Pokeverse is constantly expanding, with every new (not remastered) game, there's a new region with new Pokemon and new mechanics and a new setting. And only being able to carry 6 Pokemon at once complicates things. The main question that has to be asked is how many more new regions will be created? I think everyone here knows and understands that the anime is to promote the games, not the other way around, so as long as the world keeps expanding, you can't build a true foundation for Ash as a character to set himself up and let him truly grow. That's why Ash has been 10 years old for almost 20 years now. However, with Ash firmly planted as the protagonist of the series, there really isn't anything you can do at this point. Maybe that's why some have argued they should make a secondary series, Origins-esque, where you see the protagonist truly grow and succeed in what he does. I feel like it's more of a mistake that Ash hasn't aged at all. I feel like it would be fine if Ash aged one year for each new region he goes to, so he'd be 15 or 16 right about now, but I kinda understand why they didn't. When it comes to this episode, the question you really have to ask is has anything really changed. Have they? Does it feel like Ash is growing and progressing as a character? Do you feel like he has a better chance of succeeding in his ultimate goal now than when the season first started? It's very tough to say. And that's the ultimate problem: It seems like Ash does a full reset when starting each new region. It's why his Pikachu lost to Paul's Snivy back in DP. You have to assume the same will be the case when he goes to Alola.

Will anything truly change? Ever? I think it's more likley we get a whole new Pokemon series, with the goal of the protagonist to actually win and become successful, than seeing Ash start winning things that actually matter. That's just my view though. What has to be asked is if we'll see a Ash-Greninja type of thing with Pikachu? However, it may need to evolve into Raichu for that. And I think there's a better chance of seeing Ash defeat the champion of a region, than seeing Pikachu evolve.

Sorry, i know I'm rambling a bit. I'm actually a bit less salty than I was before now that I analyze things, because I kinda expected it all along and it does kinda make sense. Still pretty sad though. I'm not as hardcore of a fan as many of you guys are, but it still really frustrates me to see the same script over and over again, and with the way the series is structured, I just don't see how they can really change it.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Yes, the BW writers bruteforced their way into the studio, and forced the animators to change the ending at gunpoint.

God, the XY fanbase has literally zero spine.

People realize that Ash losing wasnt the choice of one or two writers right? Its something the entire staff, based Tomioka included probably signed off on
 

JCW18

Go, Explotaro!
I think the thing that angers me the most is that ASH DOES NOT CARE! He just f***ing smiles like everything is ok. Like no wonder he loses every time. He dosent really give a crap about how he does.

Seriously I've seen fan fictions with more emotion than the crap I saw today
 

Billybo10K

Silent Trainer
Honestly, I think Bisharp is Alain's real ace. Screw the over-rated lizard that needs a main series beating.

Along with everyone else, I do wish Ash showed some emotion. His Greninja showed more emotion than him when we saw it's face after the battle. Why can't Ash just have a quiet cry to himself or something, maybe do the anime cliche with the darknened face that hides the eyes or something. Anything to show that this finale meant something to him.

Also, is it confirmed 100% that there's no league in Alola? Maybe after the trials, there's a league that they could make for the anime where everyone who passed the trials can enter. One can only dream though...

At least the Team Flare arc looks good and I'm banking on a tearful goodbye scene between Puni-chan and Bonnie.
 

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
Ouch, who thought it would be a good Idea to bring in the B/W Writers for such an important Episode.

There are quite a few Problems I have with Ash losing and the Reasons are already explained here. We had a very good Pokemon Anime, Ash is at least as competent as in his Sinnoh Days. Smogonfrog can even overwhelm the Mega of a freakin Champ, the League was rushed to the End of it, Depression Arc, Episode Title etc etc.

Also now in the Battle. Charizard gets hit by quite a few Effective Moves including a Water Shuriken powerful enough to cut Legendary Pokemon in half and that Charizard barely flinches from it oO

The amount of Damage that Charizard endured is not normal and waaaay over the top.

I guess MCX will always be the most overhyped Mega in existence. Even more overhyped than the #1 favorite pokemon in Japan.
 

greninjamaster

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I think Bisharp is Alain's real ace. Screw the over-rated lizard that needs a main series beating.

Along with everyone else, I do wish Ash showed some emotion. His Greninja showed more emotion than him when we saw it's face after the battle. Why can't Ash just have a quiet cry to himself or something, maybe do the anime cliche with the darknened face that hides the eyes or something. Anything to show that this finale meant something to him.

Also, is it confirmed 100% that there's no league in Alola? Maybe after the trials, there's a league that they could make for the anime where everyone who passed the trials can enter. One can only dream though...

At least the Team Flare arc looks good and I'm banking on a tearful goodbye scene between Puni-chan and Bonnie.

I'm sure they'll create some league for sure.
 

Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
My full review as I am kept all night:

Right off the bat, we are given the rest of the Charizard vs Pikachu fight and it predictably ends with Pikachu losing to Charizard. Ash calls in Goodra and starts Rain Dance. This is an epic battleground of soaking rain, and Goodra puts up a good fight against Bisharp despite the type disadvantage, though it got hit by Guillotine. Bisharp is so weakened that Greninja makes short work of it without getting a scratch. And finally its Charizard vs Greninja. Already Greninja shows that it can push Charizard backwards, and it isn't stopping anytime soon. Even when fully evolved, the two are titans to be reckoned.

But here's where the episode went into an Evangelion 2.0 scenario. A tape recorder that began skipping out of order. The music of XY&Z starts way too early and ends way too soon. This is where the battle was at its most intense, but it's also felt like the match was not reaching its climax. Like something cataclysmic is about to happen. The Shuriken Disc was not build up, only seems to be a preview that spooks Alain, and there was no XY&Z music accompanying it. That's when you realize just how close the battle really is.

And that's when it comes to the aftermath. Everything felt wrong. I mean everything. It's strange, almost alien. Even when considering status quo, it's bizarre. The build-up and the tension were all there, but the result felt like a Twilight Zone episode. Something that was not meant to happen. Even Alain holding a trophy felt artificial, like it was a trinket instead of a grand reward. And that's when Lysandre made his move. That's when I realize the whole match was a red herring.

Lysandre was wicked here. Truly evil. And that Z2's brainwashing felt even more disturbing with Alain winning the League. If it was Ash, we would have something to celebrate before Team Flare strikes. But with Alain, it felt completely artificial from beginning to end.

And oh boy, the destruction. This makes the Ultimate Weapon look like a child's toy because this is the type of destruction that folks could only dream of in mature anime. The vines actually destroyed the League conference and Lumoise is completely engulfed. When you consider the champion, you realized that Alain winning the championship is a curse. Because how would the residents react to the news that their new champion was responsible for this mess.

All I can say is, the story here is not over. Ash and Alain still have some unfinished business to settle once this is all done. Particularly on "Alain, how could you be so stupid." Also the fact that Alain has virtually disgraced the name champion and made Ash look good in the process.
 

SlimeStack

Well-Known Member
Also, is it confirmed 100% that there's no league in Alola? Maybe after the trials, there's a league that they could make for the anime where everyone who passed the trials can enter. One can only dream though...

There's nothing to suggest that Alola doesn't have their own equivalent of the elite 4 or a champion as far as I know. Honestly, while they are advertising Alola as being different there's still a very high chance that we'll face 8 special trainers, 4 more special trainers and then the most special trainer. They're not going to take battling out of the core experience!

That said though, if the Orange League and Battle Frontier can be considered different to the Pokémon League despite them all being very similar, I still think the Alola League or equivalent will be considered different too. Which just makes me more salty that Ash couldn't win his potential last traditional league if he can win other types of league.
 

Minios

Smoke weed everyday
That's all on you guys. Titles and 30 second previews are pointless. I've known that for many years and Pokemon is definitely not the first one.
But this time it has gone too far! "Kalos League "Victor"! Ash "most decisive battle"". Considering how they made Ash constantly saying that he will bring the trophy back to his mom, win the Kalos League for others just to give us false hope. True it is a marketing skill however this is not the only way to bring the audiences to watch the episode since they overdone the bait to the point almost everyone belive Ash has this in his pocket!

Commercials can be exaggerated, but misleading to a whole new level is a different case.
 
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Xenon Blue

No Hard Feelings
"ultimate match" my butt. This has to be one of the most misleading title in Pokemon anime history. No, anime in general.
 
So apparently the lead writer for this episode is actually the same lead writer for Ash VS Cameron.


Yep.

I lost that little speck of hope the moment Tomioka stopped his league services. Not that it would have made a difference.
 

Billybo10K

Silent Trainer
And that's when it comes to the aftermath. Everything felt wrong. I mean everything. It's strange, almost alien. Even when considering status quo, it's bizarre. The build-up and the tension were all there, but the result felt like a Twilight Zone episode. Something that was not meant to happen. Even Alain holding a trophy felt artificial, like it was a trinket instead of a grand reward. And that's when Lysandre made his move. That's when I realize the whole match was a red herring.

Lysandre was wicked here. Truly evil. And that Z2's brainwashing felt even more disturbing with Alain winning the League. If it was Ash, we would have something to celebrate before Team Flare strikes. But with Alain, it felt completely artificial from beginning to end.

And oh boy, the destruction. This makes the Ultimate Weapon look like a child's toy because this is the type of destruction that folks could only dream of in mature anime. The vines actually destroyed the League conference and Lumoise is completely engulfed. When you consider the champion, you realized that Alain winning the championship is a curse. Because how would the residents react to the news that their new champion was responsible for this mess.

All I can say is, the story here is not over. Ash and Alain still have some unfinished business to settle once this is all done. Particularly on "Alain, how could you be so stupid." Also the fact that Alain has virtually disgraced the name champion and made Ash look good in the process.

This. You raise some very valid points. This match was completely overshadowed by Team Flare and I noted that the entire final section of the battle just didn't feel right. Even if Ash were to lose, I feel the XYZ music would be playing full on to emphasize the climax. By having it absent, everything felt wrong.

However I do disagree on one qualm. I doubt Alain and Ash will have a conflict later down the line, since Ash is all "Friendship is everything" and "Forgive and forget" which will probably give Alain some pretty easy redemption for the kids. I swear, Ash's everyone is good mentality genuinely makes me want to vomit sometimes.
 
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