Down to the Fiery Finish (934)

[SlimeStack]

Seriously, what's stopping Ash from winning a Pokemon League tournament?

Literally nothing. Like I keep saying, there's never going to be an issue of Ash getting too strong because he won the Battle Frontier which objectively uses stronger Pokémon than gym leaders and even most league rivals (minus Tobias).

The other excuse is that he wouldn't collect badges again after winning a league. But guess what? No ****ing badges in Alola.

He lost for no reason no matter how you look at it, and they didn't even let him lose gracefully. It was just bad artificial writing.

 

[Algalon]

hey, hey, hey we're all mad now but this is all structured so that ppl (the 10% that are left after this anyway) don't get AS pissed when Ash inevitably loses to a starter in the 1st Alola episode

 

[SlimeStack]

I'm actually completely okay with Ash losing to something weak right at the start of Sun/Moon. In all this I never actually expecting SM to start off any different to other sagas. While I expected the win, I didn't ever think that Ash would progress per se.

They really didn't need to ruin the Kalos League though. They just didn't.

 

[CupidKirby]

Well it looks like that even the Animators are pissed about the Fact that Ash lost. Speaks Volume.

lol. The animators were the only ones even carrying their weight this league. Aside from the scoreboard errors I mean; those were on them.

Anyways, some more notes about this episode now that I've calmed down:

- Why did the Team Flare arc have to happen after the Kalos League again? Now that I've seen the transition, there really is no reason other than to have Lysandre meet Ash. And they could've had him meet Ash in any other way. Don't give me the "he finally collected enough mega energy" crap because that's an indefinitely ambiguous concept and we all know it.

- So is no one going to question the giant destructo-disk? Or is it just going to exist for the sake of trolling the fanbase? I'm going for the latter. Thanks for creating another plothole just for the sake of tricking the fans, writers.

- Is anyone else getting sick of the close-ups to Serena's face while she says "Satoshi" in a really passionate tone? I know this has been an on-going thing that I've already complained about but gosh darnit, it's not helping the writers' case of just how messed up their priorities were this league. Show Serena when Ash wins, or when Ash loses or something, not for every single thing he does.

- Team Rocket were surprisingly among the best part of this episode. Their reaction to Ash losing was so on point. They really wanted him to win too.

- So I get that they want Alain to switch to the good side now. But having him become champion isn't exactly a good motivation. I mean, whatever Alain's doing in his angst world is working. Having him lose to Ash would've been a better wake-up call.

- So why did Ash not call Water Shuriken back when Rain Dance was in effect and Charizard hadn't mega evolved yet? Great, now I'm going to be convinced that the only reason he lost was because the writers once again decided to have him make a dumb call. It's sad because typically in XY, he's been better at things like this. Like calling Fletchinder to use Steel Wing on a Fairy Type once Trick Room was down. It makes Ash seem out-of-character.

- Goodra was taken out by Guillotine. Fair enough. It would've been nice if they put a little more emphasis on Goodra's struggle/disappointment in getting his first lost, and used it as a springboard for further development. lol, I doubt it.

- This match didn't help to convince me that this is Ash's "Ultimate Team." The only convincing argument they have is that Torterra isn't on it.

 

[GarchompChain]

Seriously, what's stopping Ash from winning a Pokemon League tournament? While I admit that it's a step up for Ash to make it into the finals, it's rather frustrating to follow a show for almost 20 years and have the main protagonist fail to win every major tournament he's ever entered. (The Orange League and Battle Frontier don't count as major tournaments, and even the Battle Frontier was almost 10 years ago at this point...)

So, yeah, it's really disappointing. Ash should have had this League in the bag, but always loses due to some form of reverse dues ex machina.

Indigo League: Ash fails to win due to a disobeying Charizard. If Charizard would have listened, I honestly think he could've wiped the floor with the competition there.
Johto League: Honestly, this is the one league I'll admit Ash lost fairly legitimately.
Hoenn League: Ash lost legitimately, but if Ash called upon any of his reserves, he should have had the competition in the bag. Even still, Pikachu should've taken that fight.
Sinnoh League: Ash lost due to a cheap ubers trainer with a Darkrai and Latios
Unova League: Even disregarding the fact that Ash didn't call on his reserves, he still should have easily been able to take out that Riolu
Kalos League: Greninja honestly should've had that fight dominated due to type advantage.

But yeah....the fight of Alain vs Ash/Charizard X vs Greninja was pretty good battle on its own, but.. I just dislike the greater significance it has for the series.

I don't even think Ash losing here is the worst thing. The worst probably is that we saw Ash only winning one battle. That makes this the worst league yet. Even below Unova.

I didn't expect this of this otherwise awesome saga.

 

[catzeye]

Link please?

First Answer in the Thread asking about the Reactions in Japan. Don't know if its true since I don't speak Japanese ( why I said it looks like ), but is likely that this is the Case.

http://www.serebiiforums.com/showth...action-to-the-latest-Pokemon-episode-in-Japan

Take it with a Grain of Salt ( or a big amount of Salt since the Salt Level here is close to be Life Threatening )

Here is the image I uploaded to that thread earlier.



Like I said there, I don't speak Japanese so I was going off of what the twitter users were saying. However it does appear that the animators were upset about this.


I've gotten over (most) of my saltiness about the episode. The writing was horrible. The buildup was there and yet they still can't let him win. I honestly would have been okay with a tie (still would prefer a win) but this was dumb. I'm just glad it was a competent trainer with background that Ash lost to, the animation was good and that Pikachu did very well.

 

[Holy157]

After letting the episode sink in, I'm gonna write down my thoughts on it. Quite a few of these things have been said already, so I'll try to keep those parts short.

The battles. Bisharp really impressed me. After its short performance last episode, it really picked up the slack. The usage of the Water Shuriken, twice, was more than creative and just nice to watch. My heart stopped when XYZ wasn't playing anymore. They put the nail in the coffin with that. Animations were still top notch, as always. Nothing else to say.

Ash not winning. I have to admit that I was one of the many who believed Ash would win. Skipping everything except two of his battles, Ash-Greninja, not having beaten Alain prior to the League. These things made me believe he stood a chance. The fact that he was doing so well last episode made me believe. But then came Zard-X. I shouldn't have believed it could be beaten with that record. Am I disappointed? Sure. Will I keep being that? Yeah, but not so that I can't enjoy the remaining episodes.

Alain. Is Alain op? I personally didn't think so. He had his flaws, and 5 out of his 6 Pokemon were nothing spectacular. They were certainly good, but nothing more. He was a good trainer. If anything, the real culprit to him being called op is Zard-X. Zard-X is just disgusting in terms of its power. Alain's motivation for winning the League, as I have mentioned before, was something I enjoyed. At the same time, everyone complaining about him winning isn't wrong. He didn't win the League because he wanted to be the League Champion. He had his own reasons.

Goodra. I'm not gonna say anything here because most of it has already been said.

Now, with the way Ash-Greninja vs Zard-X wasn't the battle we wanted and expected, I assume there will be a fourth. It would be unprecedented if Ash doesn't beat a rival a single time. With how they handled Ash-Greninja vs M-Sceptile, getting something similar should be in the realm of possibilities. Which in turn would require something to happen that make s Ash and Greninja stronger in the TF arc.

In the end, the battle had some highs and some big lows. I will accept what we got and enjoy, so long it doesn't get ruined, the TF arc and beyond.

 

[thor94]

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
finally i was right.
months ago i told ash will likely lose the league because passing out from the pain of ash-greninja bond. And sadly, i was really close. Ash doesn't passed out, but it was really the pain that cost him the league. Finally we have the proof that ash-greninja is only a poor low end version of true mega evolution. Ash only won against other league mega because nerfing or fight rookies (astrid and sawyer).
the worse is the fact that alain doesn't really care about league and we only seen one ash battle during the league (alain and sawyer had more screentime than our supposed main character)

 

[Rykel22]

Don't have time to dig through the thread, but I had a though. What if Lysandre funneled some of the Mega Evolution Energy into ZardX so that it could beat Ash-Greninja, thus weakening Ash so that kidnapping him would be easier. He's weakned due to the damage sharing and his pokemon are all battle worn.

 

[Torterraaaa]

Uh, wtf happened?

Ash losing to Alain is one thing. I mean the arc seemed to be heading the other way, but Alain is a very powerful trainer, so a loss was always a possibility.

But is that Charizard ****ing indestructible??!! He took a tonne of hits and whatever in God's name that destructo disk was, and just stands there?! He doesn't even seem hurt! Meanwhile Greninja faints to blast burn? This is some weird and highly unsatisfying bs.

 

[Markerz]

I understand what you're saying. The problem is there's nothing that can redeem this loss. Ash STILL lost the League, despite the fact that he should have won. To me, none of the Team Flare stuff matters. None of the Team stuff ever mattered to me, it ends up being a big explosion fest with no real payoff beyond the world gets saved. Squishy will go back to protecting the region and the protagonists move on. It's not like Squishy/Zygarde would get caught.

I mean unless you mean to say something like Ash will get his head out of his rear and start taking on the Leagues again and try again and actually win, then it's really meaningless. Ash has been a loser for far too long, he has gone baby steps in the last decade in achieving his dreams and has failed in his goal in each region he's been in, in winning the region League Champsionship. Unless we actually start to see Ash truly grow as a character, and have the results to show for it, it's hard to get enthusiastic about the anime.

Well, I never said it would be easy for them to pitch an emotional high after this outcome. It's more like, the villain arc is going to end with the villains losing, so we'll see how emotionally invested they can get the viewers. I'm waiting to see how the overarching story for XYZ comes to fruition, but they took a risk intertwining the League with the Team Flare Arc- the reaction in large shows it.

But keep in mind Pikachu fought normal Zard while Greninja faced the mega.

Pikachu is still imo the one and only MVP of the league, no doubt about that.

And maybe Hawlucha in 2nd place.

If I were a Mon, I'd love to have Hawlucha on my team. It's got all the workings of a team captain- spirit, charisma and motivation. Popping out of the Pokeball for Noivern is one of my favorite moments from this League.

 

[peppi]

Don't have time to dig through the thread, but I had a though. What if Lysandre funneled some of the Mega Evolution Energy into ZardX so that it could beat Ash-Greninja, thus weakening Ash so that kidnapping him would be easier. He's weakned due to the damage sharing and his pokemon are all battle worn.

yeah, i was thinking quite similar, but honestly ... at this moment i don't want to get some hope, just to get shattered in few weeks.

 

[ShinyMewtwo_150]

This doesn't make any sense. It is impossible for Charizard to handle all these attacks. The most of these attacks were super effective, but Charizard still wins. I don't think that Alan deserved this win.

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

This doesn't make any sense. It is impossible for Charizard to handle all these attacks. The most of these attacks were super effective, but Charizard still wins. I don't think that Alan deserved this win.

None of Greninja's moves were super effective. Charizard X is part dragon.

 

[Sonic Boom]

Mega Charizard X is Fire/Dragon. Nothing Greninja has is Super Effective on it.

MCX just happens to be one tenacious and bulky guy. Ash's Pokemon are not the only ones allowed to be Determinators and not go down easily.

 

[peppi]

This doesn't make any sense. It is impossible for Charizard to handle all these attacks. The most of these attacks were super effective, but Charizard still wins. I don't think that Alan deserved this win.

ash-greninja could hit charizard with a triple mega golden shuriken and charizard would only says: "who cares. blast burn against water type ... "

 

[Pokefan 2000]

well this proves it Ash Ketchum is not a character he a marking tool for game freak and Nintendo and the anime writers care nothing for their older fanbase and only kids parents can put down for an half hour and when old enough will want to buy the games.

 

[Alexander18]

I am glad Alain won since the complaints of Ash losing has gone too far. Ash could have won but it was not meant to be. It was a good match and at least he made it to top 2. Alain deserved it in my opinion. I give this episode a 10/10 for effort.

 

[Lucas MV]

After letting the episode sink in, I'm gonna write down my thoughts on it. Quite a few of these things have been said already, so I'll try to keep those parts short.

The battles. Bisharp really impressed me. After its short performance last episode, it really picked up the slack. The usage of the Water Shuriken, twice, was more than creative and just nice to watch. My heart stopped when XYZ wasn't playing anymore. They put the nail in the coffin with that. Animations were still top notch, as always. Nothing else to say.

Ash not winning. I have to admit that I was one of the many who believed Ash would win. Skipping everything except two of his battles, Ash-Greninja, not having beaten Alain prior to the League. These things made me believe he stood a chance. The fact that he was doing so well last episode made me believe. But then came Zard-X. I shouldn't have believed it could be beaten with that record. Am I disappointed? Sure. Will I keep being that? Yeah, but not so that I can't enjoy the remaining episodes.

Alain. Is Alain op? I personally didn't think so. He had his flaws, and 5 out of his 6 Pokemon were nothing spectacular. They were certainly good, but nothing more. He was a good trainer. If anything, the real culprit to him being called op is Zard-X. Zard-X is just disgusting in terms of its power. Alain's motivation for winning the League, as I have mentioned before, was something I enjoyed. At the same time, everyone complaining about him winning isn't wrong. He didn't win the League because he wanted to be the League Champion. He had his own reasons.

Goodra. I'm not gonna say anything here because most of it has already been said.

Now, with the way Ash-Greninja vs Zard-X wasn't the battle we wanted and expected, I assume there will be a fourth. It would be unprecedented if Ash doesn't beat a rival a single time. With how they handled Ash-Greninja vs M-Sceptile, getting something similar should be in the realm of possibilities. Which in turn would require something to happen that make s Ash and Greninja stronger in the TF arc.

In the end, the battle had some highs and some big lows. I will accept what we got and enjoy, so long it doesn't get ruined, the TF arc and beyond.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'd like to add a few things:

-They can say whatever they want, but part of the reason Ash lost, is because this was NOT his "Ultimate Team". The only ones worthy of being in this final were Pikachu and Greninja. Both dragons were a joke, Talonflame is not better than any other bird and Hawlucha is not stronger than say Heracross. Sceptile, Charizard, Infernape and Snorlax, along with Pikachu and Greninja would have won Ash the title.

-All that hype to bring Goodra back as the sixth member was for this? A tie with Sawyer's weakest pokemon and a loss. I thought Goodra would show to be as strong as Snorlax, but oh boy was I wrong.

-The battle overall was great, probably one of the best in the entire anime, but the ending was very anti-climatic. Charizard didn't even look that much hurt, and Greninja gave up way too easily. I was expecting more drama, like in the Johto league, Charizard and Blaziken's battle was great at that. Blaziken got down and up after the Seismic toss, and then both got down and up again before Charizard lost. And it was a fu**** quarter finals.

 

[Joltik-Kid]

So the Subs are out... I guess Alain was telling Ash (internally) to help him become even stronger then he is right now.