Down to the Fiery Finish (934)

[MasterTobias]

So the only way they could find to prove us that Ash and his Greninja aren't invincible was to make them fight a trainer with a better winning streak and his Charizard that regenerates its health and stamina when it Mega-Evolves since it showed signs of being tired at the start and the middle of the episode but ended up looking more fresh after he tanked the final attack. Yeah, good job team.

What LonelyShadow said. No matter how you look at it, the majority including myself will say the same thing: IT'S not good storytelling.

Look, we've seen Ash and Greninja's non-invincibility back when they had that string of non-wins and losses together during those trials. They needed to perfect themselves as Pokémon and trainer while also perfecting the Bond Phenomenon transformation. Look, they aren't unstoppable. They can get hit by moves and still take damage, but when you take less damage than a Mega Charizard X who took a bunch of attacks prior to Mega Evolving, then there are a few people who aren't gonna agree.

What frustrates me even more about this is that Ash is now being taken hostage by Team Flare now. Wouldn't it seem better if Team Flare captured the winner of the Kalos League? Like if Ash won, it would sound more sensible. Plus, Lysandre's strongest bodyguard would've been defeated. The reasons to hold Ash hostage are too perfect if he were to win.

Huh... What happened ended up happening, so this arguing is just pointless now. But come on, you guys. You have to at least admit the story would've gone by more smoothly if Ash were to win, right?

That doesn't even make sense. We already know he's not unstoppable when he lost to Sceptile and Avalugg. Or when he or Ash collapsed because of the stress on their bodies because of getting hit while in the form.

To see that Charizard who was already having trouble with an incomplete Ash-Greninja, go on a two week badge quest and then be able to withstand Ash-Greninja at its absolute strongest which is beyond what we've previously seen, in its now perfected form, is bull. Plain and simple.

...And it's reasonable Alain and his M-C-X are?

NO.

Right… because it makes perfect sense to show how non-overpowered an overpowered character is by using an even more overpowered character, correct? Because Alain needed yet another win in its flawless win streak, right? And no, I wouldn't consider his loss against Siebold having much weight, because it isn't unreal nor a shame to lose against a member of the Elite Four, which are already Mary Sues and Gary Stus themselves.

Guys this is the same guy that thinks Ash is OP (and Alain is balanced) because Pikachu took out 2 pokes of Alain's team and has a big love for mega char x,you won't be able to convince him despite your comments being valid proof on how much his statement is wrong,heck the 1st half of its opinion contradict the 2nd half as you may have already seen.

 

[Caseydia]

All I know i that 3 years from now I want reserves, the writers have shown they can't even give equal balance to Ash's team when it's JUST THEM at this League so might as well not even try and just rely on nostalgia and give the reigon team one really good battle ala Ash vs Paul

I wouldn't say that. This was one of his best teams and he should learn how to win with other pokemon than just the ones that spam all the time.

Congratulations for being the only person on this site that didnt like Ash vs Paul lol

I liked it but it wasn't that great. I didn't like how Infernape took most of the match.

I worry for the writers right now. I mean if some Amorshippers harassed a writer on Twitter... I'd hate to see the magnitude of this situation.

If I were them, I would start deleting all sorts of social media right now.

I think Ash losing is a good thing because it proves that he and his Ash-Greninja are not unstoppable. It is a good way for the writers to show their non-invincibility.

They could have done it a better way than having it be the total focus and just have it win against Charizard and that's it.

Right… because it makes perfect sense to show how non-overpowered an overpowered character is by using an even more overpowered character, correct? Because Alain needed yet another win in its flawless win streak, right? And no, I wouldn't consider his loss against Siebold having much weight, because it isn't unreal nor a shame to lose against a member of the Elite Four, which are already Mary Sues and Gary Stus themselves.

Alain was already overpowered in his own special. They could have used someone else instead of dragging him over to Ash's.

 

[WaterShuriken]

I liked it but it wasn't that great. I didn't like how Infernape took most of the match.

Same thing happened in Ash vs Gary. Charizard took three wins. Not surprising.

 

[Alexander18]

Please. Tobias was more overpowered than Alain was. He wipe half of Ash's team out with one pokemon and the other half with the other. We didn't get to see his other 4 pokemon. For your information, I don't contradict myself. Ash needed to lose and the writers pulled it off. It was good story telling and it does make sense to me. Ash-Greninja in it's perfected form needed taking out and it did which proves it is not an Arceus.

 

[LonelyShadow]

Same thing happened in Ash vs Gary. Charizard took three wins. Not surprising.

And two of those wins were OHKOs.

 

[Cetra]

Please. Tobias was more overpowered than Alain was. He wipe half of Ash's team out with one pokemon and the other half with the other. We didn't get to see his other 4 pokemon. For your information, I don't contradict myself. Ash needed to lose and the writers pulled it off. It was good story telling and it does make sense to me. Ash-Greninja in it's perfected form needed taking out and it did which proves it is not an Arceus.

You constantly contradict yourself and multiple people have told you already. And everything is written by a writer, that is because that show does not exist without writers writing it. That does not make everything written by them a milestone of literature. "Good story telling" is definitely not building up tension, skip a lot of moments in favor for one specific just to make it all peak in an alternate moment that makes everything that came before totally inconsequential. Also your constant "Ash Greninja is not invincible" argument is moot considering Ash is shown as fallible person for years making it not as necessary to be mentioned as you want it to be as well as the fact that Alan's Charizard is the one who should really be stopped. Just to even consider this could really only have been a battle where an ultimate and absolutely overpowered 60000000000000 HP Charizard that only took 10 points of damage was involved already should should that "good writing" in this possible case is very weird.

 

[Alexander18]

You constantly contradict yourself and multiple people have told you already. And everything is written by a writer, that is because that show does not exist without writers writing it. That does not make everything written by them a milestone of literature. "Good story telling" is definitely not building up tension, skip a lot of moments in favor for one specific just to make it all peak in an alternate moment that makes everything that came before totally inconsequential. Also your constant "Ash Greninja is not invincible" argument is moot considering Ash is shown as fallible person for years making it not as necessary to be mentioned as you want it to be as well as the fact that Alan's Charizard is the one who should really be stopped. Just to even consider this could really only have been a battle where an ultimate an absolutely 60000000000000 HP Charizard that only took 10 points if damage was involved already should should that "good writing" in this possible case is a very weird.

No I haven't. Don't assume something I am not. Alain deserve to win and Ash did well for this league in my opinion.

 

[Cetra]

No I haven't. Don't assume something I am not.

Are we at this point again where you contradict your own words again and you say "don't say I do that, don't act like you know me"? People do not need to know you. People do not need to assume or say you do anything without you doing it. They just read your posts and say exactly what you do. And it is what you do. Either you really have no interest to learn that or you do not have the ability to understand that (if that is the case I am sorry, that is a possibility of course) or, and that is also a possibility nowadays, you just want to troll us.

 

[NegaiFreak]

Please. Tobias was more overpowered than Alain was. He wipe half of Ash's team out with one pokemon and the other half with the other. We didn't get to see his other 4 pokemon. For your information, I don't contradict myself. Ash needed to lose and the writers pulled it off. It was good story telling and it does make sense to me. Ash-Greninja in it's perfected form needed taking out and it did which proves it is not an Arceus.

Okay, that's only because Tobias had legendaries on his team. TWO of which were taken out by Ash's Pokémon.

And no, Ash did not need to lose. He went on this streak because he matured as a trainer from the eighth gym and bonded more thoroughly with his team. And sure, Ash-Greninja may have needed to be taken out in his perfected form, but we could've had that done with Zygarde. THAT would at least make more sense than losing to a Charizard by only taking three hits! Zygarde is a legendary, Charizard isn't.

And if that's your argument, then that proves Charizard is an Arceus for completely screwing Greninja over even after taking damage early on in his regular form before going Mega.

What's better? Capturing the guy who has an interesting form change with one of his Pokémon? Or capture the guy who has an interesting form change with one of his Pokémon that DEFEATED a top trainer's Mega Charizard?

If saying Ash-Greninja beating Mega Charizard is bogus, then I guess he shouldn't be able to beat Mega Abomasnow and Mega Sceptile- OH WAIT, HE DID. But arguing with you is absolutely pointless, so I'll stick to my headcanon.

 

[LonelyShadow]

In contrast to the battles against Sawyer and Wulfric, I wonder what did Ash learn from this defeat, that he needs to bring his Charizard for the next league?

 

[Shadao]

In contrast to the battles against Sawyer and Wulfric, I wonder what did Ash learn from this defeat, that he needs to bring his Charizard for the next league?

No, I think this was Ash's last test to prove himself worthy of being a champion of the League (and not just a semi-finalist). After mastering Ash-Greninja and learning where the true strength of Pokémon lies, it would stand to reason that his last challenge would be this: Could he handle another loss after being so close to his goal? Would he care that much to reach the champion's title that he longed desire, to the point of regressing back to his previous "I must win to impress Sawyer" mentality? As Ash reveals in his monologue: No, he doesn't care about the outcome as long as he can bring the best out of himself and his opponent. And that's what makes him worthy.

In contrast, Alain failed that lesson during his epiphany monologue. After focusing on strong trainers and vowing to never lose in order to become powerful (be it for himself or for Mairin), Alain is finally feeling something different inside of him during his battles against Ash: The feeling of excitement and thrills in a Pokémon battle. He joins to League to have that feeling once again and in his own monologue, he thanks Ash for it. But instead of embracing it, Alain discards it in favor of his "Never lose for Mairin" and promptly failed his lesson (which is going to have some big consequences in the future). He hasn't changed at all.

 

[SoundVoltex]

Has there been any references to his previous regions since the Olympia gym battle?

 

[Emperor Empoleon]

In contrast to the battles against Sawyer and Wulfric, I wonder what did Ash learn from this defeat, that he needs to bring his Charizard for the next league?

That the key to being powerful is having people and things to protect. By the grand order of all Anime.

 

[DS0308]

Has there been any references to his previous regions since the Olympia gym battle?

I'm pretty sure in the second episode of the Kalos League he mentioned to Goodra about how he was thinking of using reserves from Oak but decided to use him instead.

Other than that I don't think there's really been any? There was a handful before the Olympia battle.

 

[lemoncatpower]

That the key to being powerful is having people and things to protect. By the grand order of all Anime.

Keeping the same pokemon since the beginning of your journey so they can get invincible and not resetting your team every time. Pikachu doesn't count since it has yearly amnesia.

 

[LonelyShadow]

No, I think this was Ash's last test to prove himself worthy of being a champion of the League (and not just a semi-finalist). After mastering Ash-Greninja and learning where the true strength of Pokémon lies, it would stand to reason that his last challenge would be this: Could he handle another loss after being so close to his goal? Would he care that much to reach the champion's title that he longed desire, to the point of regressing back to his previous "I must win to impress Sawyer" mentality? As Ash reveals in his monologue: No, he doesn't care about the outcome as long as he can bring the best out of himself and his opponent. And that's what makes him worthy.

In contrast, Alain failed that lesson during his epiphany monologue. After focusing on strong trainers and vowing to never lose in order to become powerful (be it for himself or for Mairin), Alain is finally feeling something different inside of him during his battles against Ash: The feeling of excitement and thrills in a Pokémon battle. He joins to League to have that feeling once again and in his own monologue, he thanks Ash for it. But instead of embracing it, Alain discards it in favor of his "Never lose for Mairin" and promptly failed his lesson (which is going to have some big consequences in the future). He hasn't changed at all.

I agree with your statement. I actually started to like Alain when he showed his excitement for having a battle with Ash like in episode #23, but then he just regressed all the way back to his Mega Evolution Special-self. Watching Ash lose a league he barely put any effort in before the semi-finals wasn't very disappointing, but to see a character like Alain win (once again) felt like a disturbance in the Force.

That the key to being powerful is having people and things to protect. By the grand order of all Anime.

People? Please. Ash would have destroyed Alain if he protected the reputation of the Kalos league :E

 

[Navin]

Tobias wins 6-3

I'd say 6-4. Charizard and Snorlax aren't going to go down like punks.

 

[Lunala]

I think both parts need improvement, less hype on whoever wins and less rushed. Apart from that, I like the two part episodes. This episode got a 7/10 for me.

I would agree with this. Like it's fine to hype an important episode but I don't think they should have overhyped the outcome when they knew they were going to fail to deliver the outcome people wanted, as well as fail to deliver an enjoyable episode.

 

[TheScentedApple]

I just realized. There was three pseudo-legendaries in this battle, and none got a win....

 

[thiagomestres]

I just realized. There was three pseudo-legendaries in this battle, and none got a win....

Why is that important? It's not like this term is official in the games, let alone the anime. Stats don't even exist in the anime, so it makes no sense to even have this classification here.