Down to the Fiery Finish (934)

[yuoke]

I never expected this much salt to come from an obvious loss.

On one hand, it has people turning on the Charizard species which is glorious.

On the other hand, calm down. Devote more care to the real people in your life.

Literally "copout, the post" right here.

Also the greninja species is 100x more glorious than the overrated one.

 

[NegaiFreak]

You know, aside all the negativity this episode brought, I think that the better way would have been Ash winning this league, head to the Champions League to try his hand in beating the Elite Four, only to lose to the first or maybe the second member.

Had the above happened, no one would have been as salty, seeing everyone knows by nature how strong and powerful the E4 really are.

On this loss, Ash then would have realized he's not strong enough yet to match with the greatest of the elite, and has a lot to learn yet. Its then he would hear about Alola, and knowing about its traditions to do away with the League system, would go there to undergo the Island Challenge to learn more about Pokémon and undergo a sort of spiritual enlightment for himself and his Pokémon while fighting opponents that get stronger along the way, till he reaches the level to match himself with the greatest of elites, eventually being able to compete once again in a Pokémon/Champions League with a team made of his best and strongest of Pokémon he has gathered, trained and bonded over the years. Whether he would have won or not, of course, that remains to be seen.

That is how I would have done it, were I writing the league episodes for the XYZ season. Unfortunately, I'm not, and as such, this outcome will never happen.

Why? The Pokémon Anime on its own doesn't have a damn story you'd care about, and on its whole is pretty damn boring. Its just recycling episodes with a new fresh coat of paint. Sure, the battles are way more dynamic and awesome, animation is crisp, but none of it matters when a show such as this just keeps on recycling the same old story scenarios.

Speaking of League losses, I still think that the fights against Gary and Harrison were way more worth than the whole match with Alain. At least with Gary and Harrison, he put effort and the teams of both opponents were equal in every way. In Alain's case, Ash didn't just lose....no, its worse...he lost against someone who wasn't even interested to join the league in the first place. That is what really stings.

Had Ash lost against someone just as passionate about winning the league, and having a legit, well-balanced team of Pokémon, the loss would have been taken way, way better.

At least that's my two cents on the matter.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Also, for those of you telling the disappointed and angry fans to get over it, yes, there are some overreactions, but they're warranted. There was hype, there was merchandising, there was foreshadowing surrounding Ash and Greninja going into this final matchup and what do we get?

I literally wanted to cry and throw up after seeing the result. It felt like someone ripped my heart out as soon as I saw Greninja and Ash fall. I'm glad that I made my own headcanon for this because honestly, I can't stomach the thought of Ash losing. Not because it was Alain he was facing, but because the writers just are afraid to let him win it all.

 

[k6666]

Yup its not our fault that we believe ash gonna win, after the build up the writer to do, mastering grenjnja power, promise to furfrou guy, being everyone who to look up to, there no reason ash lose there no excuse, its pure writer fault

 

[sandtreamftw]

Yup its not our fault that we believe ash gonna win, after the build up the writer to do, mastering grenjnja power, promise to furfrou guy, being everyone who to look up to, there no reason ash lose there no excuse, its pure writer fault

It was most definitely you're guy's fault for believing he would win, and your disappointments are a direct result of believing too strongly in what was never a certainty. There was no real build up for him to win, but to connect with Greninja. That was what XYZ was really about. If they wanted to build towards Ash winning, way more would have been done to hype it up over speaking to some nobody that clearly felt tacked on.

 

[GarchompChain]

So how am I feeling after seeing this match go down? Well, just as stunned as everyone else, just as stunned. Did I predict Ash would win? I did, and I will admit that I was wrong, but I wasn't surprised either. I would like to say that this one hurts. It kinda reminds me that when you are in a close game situation, and the game comes down to the last play. Who can execute it better and who wants it more? I can think the 2016 NCAA National Championship Game where Villanova beat North Carolina at the buzzer, and this stunned Carolina, and jubilation for Villanova. There is also Super Bowl XLII: the undefeated Patriots were upset by the Giants despite leading almost the entire game (and almost everyone loved that). Then, there are the college football games where some games came down to a field goal attempt, and whether you make it or not, the loss stings for other teams on the losing end. I will have to say this: Ash's Kalos Team is the best team to not win it all. It hurts man, it really hurts.

This wasn't easy to what Ash accomplished, but it's definitely not an easy pill to swallow after going through all that. What Ash has accomplished...I don't know if he can ever reach that far again. Other than this, Ash had very good moments. Ash is not stunned after this loss though, but I am somewhat over it. He did something that he has never done before. Sadly, he couldn't get the win that mattered most, which is his first League title in career history. Obviously, the lesson here is to never take anything for granted, even if the title did hint at Ash possibly winning it all.

I know mostly everyone here is stunned at the moment. This is probably one of the hardest things I've had to go through watching Pokemon. For me, it's almost difficult to process. It really feels like a failure. It stings, but not as much as my important things that happen in my life. I'm obviously disappointed that the match didn't really go the way I wanted, but that's life. Ash has many moments of trials, battles, and experience, and when he fell short, it was like, wow, we're actually having a moment of salt, anger, sadness, and disappointment. Apparently, the writers and staff really wanted Alain to have it more, as of now. So for those of you who played safe, good for you. I credit you for thinking that Alain would win.

Well apparently, not the whole staff agreed with this...

It was most definitely you're guy's fault for believing he would win, and your disappointments are a direct result of believing too strongly in what was never a certainty. There was no real build up for him to win, but to connect with Greninja. That was what XYZ was really about. If they wanted to build towards Ash winning, way more would have been done to hype it up over speaking to some nobody that clearly felt tacked on.

I really feel like some people are misunderstanding things. We saw Ash winning only 1 battle (!). The only thing that could have redeemed this league was Ash winning the whole thing.

It's not just about this one episode.

 

[NegaiFreak]

It was most definitely you're guy's fault for believing he would win, and your disappointments are a direct result of believing too strongly in what was never a certainty. There was no real build up for him to win, but to connect with Greninja. That was what XYZ was really about. If they wanted to build towards Ash winning, way more would have been done to hype it up over speaking to some nobody that clearly felt tacked on.

Um, what? No, no. We might've been overconfident about Ash winning, but it's not our fault that are expectations were brought up so high. Especially since Greninja VS Charizard was the battle to DECIDE the League in first place.

How is it our fault? Ash and Greninja were built as a duo who shared the connection in order to unlock their potential, and they perfected that potential to the point where they seemed all but unstoppable. I want to know what the writers thought here. Did they just decide to rehash the same old idea that Ash can never win a league because if he does, the series ends? That's BS and everyone knows it.

Yes, sometimes you lose. But if they wanted to send a message instead of just showing off with their animation and such, they would've let Ash win. Heck, I'd okay with Sawyer being Ash's final opponent in the Kalos League over Alain. At least he WANTED to win the league over that jerk.

Sorry, I'm just letting off some steam from yesterday. When you look at good kid shows today, you see powerful messages along with characters succeeding to achieve their goals. I think the anime was doing great with that. Ash and Greninja overcoming their weaknesses as trainer and Pokémon to complete the Ash-Greninja form was well done. Sure, it might not be meant for the league, and a rematch may happen against Alain, but this is literally a setup for failure. Also known as a complete cop out.

This was bad storytelling people. Ash winning would not only correct that, but it'd also make the rest of the story seem more sensible. Yes, I'm butthurt about this, but I have a good reason to be. Almost everyone's upset from this. We're all torn apart because of what happened.

At least we have our headcanons...

 

[Lucas MV]

I think someone touched on this earlier but I would've be only slightly miffed at the result if Charizard fell to his knees but didn't faint. What actually happened just makes me rather disappointed and quite unsatisfied. Sure we can brush it off and say "hey he improved by making the Final for the first time", but
Make it a super close fight rather than Charizard eating the Giganto Shuriken for breakfast. It didn't even look that tired after Greninja went down... and it literally got it's face punched into the ground. Greninja took a total of three hits and looked boned after the second one. Like... guh...

Exactly, I'm already over this, and will continue to watch the anime. But that is the biggest problem I have with it. It didn't look like a close fight, it looked like Charizard could've kept going for a while. I was expecting a fight with the Blaziken vs Charizard drama in Johto, where both pokemon got down and back up before the end. I was expecting that Charizard would survive the Orange Shuriken in the same surprising way that Blaziken survived the Seismic Toss, showing it as a feat. In that battle back in Johto, you could tell it was a close fight, you could feel the tension.

In this case, the tension was not there in the end. If both of them were on the ground after the smoke vanished, and then both got back up and Greninja fell again. That'd be way more satisying. The way it was, it seemed like Greninja is still a long way from Charizard.

I never expected this much salt to come from an obvious loss.

On one hand, it has people turning on the Charizard species which is glorious.

It isn't turning me on the Zard species. If anything I dislike even more the writer's decision to give Ash an special Greninja instead of mega evolving his own Charizard. I thought they did that cause Greninja was more popular right now, so Ash would win with the most popular pokemon at the time. But in the end a Charizard won anyway... So why not give Ash the Charizard and Alain the special OP Greninja? It just doesn't make sense. The Charizard in this fight was in the wrong side, I tell you.

I'm over it anyway, the fight was great, except for the final scene. It hurts because it was so close...but, it's just how it is.

 

[sandtreamftw]

Um, what? No, no. We might've been overconfident about Ash winning, but it's not our fault that are expectations were brought up so high. Especially since Greninja VS Charizard was the battle to DECIDE the League in first place.

How is it our fault? Ash and Greninja were built as a duo who shared the connection in order to unlock their potential, and they perfected that potential to the point where they seemed all but unstoppable. I want to know what the writers thought here. Did they just decide to rehash the same old idea that Ash can never win a league because if he does, the series ends? That's BS and everyone knows it.

Yes, sometimes you lose. But if they wanted to send a message instead of just showing off with their animation and such, they would've let Ash win. Heck, I'd okay with Sawyer being Ash's final opponent in the Kalos League over Alain. At least he WANTED to win the league over that jerk.

Sorry, I'm just letting off some steam from yesterday. When you look at good kid shows today, you see powerful messages along with characters succeeding to achieve their goals. I think the anime was doing great with that. Ash and Greninja overcoming their weaknesses as trainer and Pokémon to complete the Ash-Greninja form was well done. Sure, it might not be meant for the league, and a rematch may happen against Alain, but this is literally a setup for failure. Also known as a complete cop out.

This was bad storytelling people. Ash winning would not only correct that, but it'd also make the rest of the story seem more sensible. Yes, I'm butthurt about this, but I have a good reason to be. Almost everyone's upset from this. We're all torn apart because of what happened.

At least we have our headcanons...

You can acknowledge bad story telling without being crybabies. Not saying you are, but the this thread and the internet's collective reaction to this has just been laughable. Personally, I've always thought the XY season has been grossly overhyped by the fandom, with Ash winning especially. Can we acknowldege this as bad writing? Sure. I concede this wasn't all that great, but everyone has had a one-sided focus on Ash winning that they completely forgot the other plot-points.

I'm going to give Alan side of things (Gets shield ready) yes, he didn't want to win the League, but he was set up to be a major antagonist for Ash later down the road during the Team Flare arc, with his motivations being to become stronger for his friends. In fact, the Team Flare arc should have been everyones biggest clue Ash may not win. Its very likely Ash and Alain will battle once again. Having Ash lose to him in the league adds to satisfaction of when Ash beats him in a far more high stakes battle which is saving Kalos.

Ash and Greninja bonding and perfecting their team work =/= Ash wins the Kalos league(especially when we just had an arc of Ash not being concerned over winning or losing). This was everyone putting more emphasis on the League when it clearly wasn't the main plot point like other seasons. Team Flare is the main crux, with the emotional pay off coming from there. Will it satisfy? I don't know, but the staff seems to be hedging their bets on this finale to sendoff XY.

 

[Cresselia92]

I'm going to give Alan side of things (Gets shield ready) yes, he didn't want to win the League, but he was set up to be a major antagonist for Ash later down the road during the Team Flare arc, with his motivations being to become stronger for his friends. In fact, the Team Flare arc should have been everyones biggest clue Ash may not win. Its very likely Ash and Alain will battle once again. Having Ash lose to him in the league adds to satisfaction of when Ash beats him in a far more high stakes battle which is saving Kalos.

I pretty much doubt that Ash and Alain will battle again, and there would be absolutely no point in doing so. Ash and Alain will most likely team up to take down Lysandre rather than spending time battling each other. I mean, Alain is misguided, not evil. I seriously doubt that he will keep working by Lysandre's side after he sees what the latter is doing. In fact, in the preview he seems under shock, and Ash and friends will try to help fix things up.

Besides, even if they wanted to fight again after the conflict, what would be the point? Just to give a "revenge match" to Greninja? Seems a pretty lackluster reason to do so.

It doesn't matter how you twist it, all of this development has been torn apart by a terrible and anticlimactic conclusion. If they truly wanted Alain to win, they could have geared more the promotion toward his victory, rather than making it seem as if Ash was going to win.

Ash and Greninja bonding and perfecting their team work =/= Ash wins the Kalos league(especially when we just had an arc of Ash not being concerned over winning or losing). This was everyone putting more emphasis on the League when it clearly wasn't the main plot point like other seasons. Team Flare is the main crux, with the emotional pay off coming from there. Will it satisfy? I don't know, but the staff seems to be hedging their bets on this finale to sendoff XY.

And why did they have to sacrifice the League for the Team Flare arc? It isn't only about this episode, but it's also about the whole League in general. If they really didn't want to let Ash win, then it would have been better to see his other matches, rather than cutting to the day of his loss. It's terrible handling overall, and they must acknowledge that.

 

[Xenon Blue]

So is the disco shrunken coming back later on or is it a one-time thing which will never get explained why it happened in the first place.

 

[Kenny Pkmn Trainer]

Its hillarious how fast the battle went. Charizard vs Greninja lasted for like 2 minutes or so(prob less or lil bit more including the time where they talked about ''feelings'') Charizard barely taking damage at all at the end.

And they call this an ultimate battle. They made it so that this was a piece of cake for Alan.

 

[sandtreamftw]

I pretty much doubt that Ash and Alain will battle again, and there would be absolutely no point in doing so. Ash and Alain will most likely team up to take down Lysandre rather than spending time battling each other. I mean, Alain is misguided, not evil. I seriously doubt that he will keep working by Lysandre's side after he sees what the latter is doing. In fact, in the preview he seems under shock, and Ash and friends will try to help fix things up.

Besides, even if they wanted to fight again after the conflict, what would be the point? Just to give a "revenge match" to Greninja? Seems a pretty lackluster reason to do so.

It doesn't matter how you twist it, all of this development has been torn apart by a terrible and anticlimactic conclusion. If they truly wanted Alain to win, they could have geared more the promotion toward his victory, rather than making it seem as if Ash was going to win.



And why did they have to sacrifice the League for the Team Flare arc? It isn't only about this episode, but it's also about the whole League in general. If they really didn't want to let Ash win, then it would have been better to see his other matches, rather than cutting to the day of his loss. It's terrible handling overall, and they must acknowledge that.

All "this terrible" handling is mainly a result of everyone putting too much stock on the League. DROP IT. They just had a whole arc of Ash overcoming his fear of losing and people think they were building towards him winning? Come on. And while I don't think Ash and Alan will have a full 6 on 6 fight, I definitely expect Greninja and Charizard to fight again. People kept wondering why they were rushing through the league, cuz it wasn't what mattered.

 

[GarchompChain]

All "this terrible" handling is mainly a result of everyone putting too much stock on the League. DROP IT. They just had a whole arc of Ash overcoming his fear of losing and people think they were building towards him winning? Come on. And while I don't think Ash and Alan will have a full 6 on 6 fight, I definitely expect Greninja and Charizard to fight again. People kept wondering why they were rushing through the league, cuz it wasn't what mattered.

Yeah no it's not gonna be that easy. We're not gonna drop it. You don't decide that. For a lot of fans the league is the most important thing.

I think the anime is going to feel this in the ratings.

 

[Cresselia92]

All "this terrible" handling is mainly a result of everyone putting too much stock on the League. DROP IT. They just had a whole arc of Ash overcoming his fear of losing and people think they were building towards him winning? Come on. And while I don't think Ash and Alan will have a full 6 on 6 fight, I definitely expect Greninja and Charizard to fight again. People kept wondering why they were rushing through the league, cuz it wasn't what mattered.

So, it was perfectly ok to skip the preliminaries, right? It was perfectly ok to make a punk take precious screentime from the hero for a promise that ended up unfulfilled, right? It was perfectly ok to see only the ending of the match against Astrid and focus only on Tierno and Sawyer, right?

It isn't only about the conclusion, the whole League has been handled poorly, and the final result doesn't do anything more than make the flaws even more glaring. Sacrificing all those matches for a decent finale may not have been good, but it would have been at least tolerable. And, honestly, rushing things up just to reach Team Flare is shoddy pacing. We have followed Ash collecting Badges for three years, and this what we get? A dysfunctional tournament that can be barely considered a League? Let's be real, it was handled terribly and there is no excuse that supports it.

And again, I don't expect Charizard and Greninja to face off again. The most they could do would be to team up and that's it. And even if there will be a confrontation between them, it will be only a bittersweet dessert accompanying a spicy and yucky dish. It will barely matter, because it would be too little and too late. The final match left its sign and there is no form of redemption ahead, aside of some character development for Alain, I suppose.

 

[yuoke]

All "this terrible" handling is mainly a result of everyone putting too much stock on the League. DROP IT. They just had a whole arc of Ash overcoming his fear of losing and people think they were building towards him winning? Come on. And while I don't think Ash and Alan will have a full 6 on 6 fight, I definitely expect Greninja and Charizard to fight again. People kept wondering why they were rushing through the league, cuz it wasn't what mattered.

Uhhh....how does the league not matter when ash literally came to kalos specifically to win the league? The entire arc for ash is him getting badges, and they even opened the league up with ash hard core serious saying he will win it for everyone that couldnt make it.

Saying the league meant nothing after the fact that they rushed through it and gave total ******** with invincible charizard is a total copout apologist thing to say.

 

[Kenny Pkmn Trainer]

Yeah no it's not gonna be that easy. We're not gonna drop it. You don't decide that. For a lot of fans the league is the most important thing.

I think the anime is going to feel this in the ratings.

Yeah my friends quit watching the anime now.

Their points
-Why bother watch the anime knowing Ash will always lose the pokemon leagues in each region? After seeing the final it is clear for a lot of pokémon fans that Ash will never be a champion.
-By the time Ash wins, its probably gonna be in the end, then again who cares by then?
-The hype they build up always ends up in dissapointment example: Goodra

Talking about the age group of 20+ here. The little kids will keep on watching for the fillers.


The writers could have written a nice arc for Ash being the Pokémon league champion just this once after Zygarde shenanigans.

 

[Kenny Pkmn Trainer]

Pikachu vs Latios was 10 times better than this final battle by the way. No idea but since B/W the writers went downhill very bad.

 

[Xenon Blue]

I watch mainly for the battles and league (I'm sure most of you guys do too). The battles in XY for the most part has been good. Nothing amazing (maybe except vs Olympia), but good. It's not outrageous to expect a quality league afterwards. We didn't need an Ash vs Paul, all we wanted was a complete, satisfying league.

What we got was a league that was awfully paced, terrible opener, too many teases that did not live up to the expectation, a bunch of skipped battles, and an underwhelming end. I think most of our complains and disappointment is justified.

 

[Ominous Wind]

So is the disco shrunken coming back later on or is it a one-time thing which will never get explained why it happened in the first place.

Wait until November. We'll never see it again.

 

[lemoncatpower]

Wait until November. We'll never see it again.

Honestly this is what ruined this last episode for me... hyping up this shuriken to not even see it land

Hopefully when November comes, another shuriken will appear and actually hit something so that I can imagine what the animation of charizard getting hit by it could be like, even though he wasn't phased by it.