• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Down to the Fiery Finish (934)

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Eh, I'm pretty sure that Shuriken was just bait so people would get hyped up and get trolled

You're welcome to think that if you want, but you're only going to be upset about it. There is a perfectly logical reason for it available that explains it while also making Ash look better, so why not just accept it and be happy instead.

Exactly. If the giant orange shuriken was a fully powered up move of Ash-Greninja which managed to cut through a Blast Burn attack, it should've finished off Mega Charizard-X. There was no point in trolling the viewers by showing off a powerful move like that.

Or maybe Alain and Mega Charizard X were still too powerful for Ash-Greninja, even with it accessing its full power.
 

Cloud5001

Well-Known Member
The armchair quarterback in me says that Ash lost because he made a couple of strategic errors but it wasn't a bad battle so all is well that ends well. Alain has already been established as a strong trainer and I think the match could have gone either way. It seems that Greninja learned Destructo disc a little bit too late.

Oh yeah I noticed that too and it's not like they were huge mistakes, a couple minor adjustments and both Noviern and Goodra could've had wins there. That being said Alain slipped up a bit too and that's what made it so awesome to watch. When either side made an error in judgment the other was quick to take advantage of it.
 

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
I wonder if people would have been mad if Ash lost had Bisharp used Thunder Wave on Greninja and Greninja overtime couldn't escape from attacks
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
Well there it is - Ash has had the fight of his life and he lost. Again.

Personally I don't think this is a big deal. Ash loosing eventually is part an parcel of the anime and there's nothing wrong with it as a recycled plot line. He's easier to get behind as a protagonist when he doesn't win and it's a reasonably good message to send that he's not a sore loser. Alain as the victor I'm a little unsure about owing to the fact that he a) only entered the leauge to battle Ash (which is almost stalking behaviour), b) won the necessary badges in a very short time and c) is marked by the fact that he's still involved with Team Flare. That and he might not even have been there had Ash not mentioned the leauge to him the last time they met - I'm not sure whether it's coincident or a deliberate ironic joke but this is the second time Ash has inadvertently sealed his own fate at the leauge - he begged Nurse Joy to let Cameron register post deadline in Unova.

It's also the first time Greninja has lost a battle since I think Ash lost to Wulfric the first time and they're aren't any major battles left other than the Team Flare arch. So it's role as Ash's star Pokémon is drawing to a close. That being said it didn't have as important a role in the finals as I thought it would given the attention it recieved leading up to the leauge. In the Sawyer battle Greninja only faced Sceptile and therefore only had one win - reasonable given the two Pokémon were supposed to be rivals, though this wasn't really alluded to much. Against Alain it beat Bisharp, if for no other reason than to give it some glory before it lost to Charizard. I have to admit I'm acutally kind of relieved that if there was ever a Team of Pokémon that would win Ash the leauge it isn't going to be one with Greinja on it - It's my least favourite water starter. Maybe Ash can have something similar with Popplio in Alola. Popplio's cool.

In both battles the heavy lifting was done by Pikachu - exactly as it should be. Fighting both Sawyer and Alain Pikachu beat two of each trainers Pokémon and was only taken down by the other trainers main partner. While he hasn't had the starring role that Pikachu had in the first three gym battles, it's undeniable that Pikachu's efforts in both battles are a significant factor in Ash's success against both trainers. But that's to be expected - Pikachu's Ash's strongest and closet partner. He should play the staring role with minimal losses. This is much better than the BW series where he had far too many losses to opponets that weren't worthy of beating him - Snivy, Panpour, Excadrill and Lucario. In XY he's taken on Tyranitar and Metagross and won, and in Tyranitar's case with surprising ease.

That brings me to the biggest disappointment of this episode - Pikachu vs Charizard. Even thought it was hinted at that Pikachu might fare well against Charizard in the last episode, he lost before the title sequence. That's disappointing. However it wasn't as if Charizard dominated - Pikachu matched Dragon Claw with Iron tail but just wasn't strong enough. He still put up a good fight. And it leaves open the possibility that in a rematch Pikachu might actually win - I won't speculate on that as an Ash vs Alain rematch will probably never happen.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
A decent ending to a terrible league. Let's forget the outcome of it and focus on the league itself. It spent more time building up rivals that should have been done weeks, perhaps years ago. We barely got to see the main character despite being the main character.

Is it just me, or was Ash really insincere in his apology to his friends for not meeting their expectations? If I'm not the only one, then I have a new "Ash doesn't care about leagues and only does it to just travel and meet strong trainers" headcanon.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
A decent ending to a terrible league. Let's forget the outcome of it and focus on the league itself. It spent more time building up rivals that should have been done weeks, perhaps years ago. We barely got to see the main character despite being the main character.

Is it just me, or was Ash really insincere in his apology to his friends for not meeting their expectations? If I'm not the only one, then I have a new "Ash doesn't care about leagues and only does it to just travel and meet strong trainers" headcanon.

The fact that most of the rounds before the final got skipped meant that Ash deserved to win this battle more. We only got one fully shown battle in the League which Ash won. Ash's battles skipped so much gave a feeling that he easily ploughed through all of his earlier opponents before Sawyer.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
The fact that most of the rounds before the final got skipped meant that Ash deserved to win this battle more. We only got one fully shown battle in the League which Ash won. Ash's battles skipped so much gave a feeling that he easily ploughed through all of his earlier opponents before Sawyer.

No it doesn't. It is lazy transitioning. They just show the battle as it was ending. We didn't see him struggle or so much as try to earn the title of champion. By skipping through the battles, the writers told us Ash made it to the semis rather than showed us. What happened was we were shown the rivals were strong rather than that happen over the course of the series. A victory for Ash would be hollow, seeing that we weren't shown how he earned the victory.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
No it doesn't. It is lazy transitioning. They just show the battle as it was ending. We didn't see him struggle or so much as try to earn the title of champion. By skipping through the battles, the writers told us Ash made it to the semis rather than showed us. What happened was we were shown the rivals were strong rather than that happen over the course of the series. A victory for Ash would be hollow, seeing that we weren't shown how he earned the victory.
But it wasn't also justified to show Ash win only one fully shown battle in the League. If it was two battles- semi-final and final- it would have been okay. And Ash did struggle quite a bit in the semi final and final.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
But it wasn't also justified to show Ash win only one fully shown battle in the League. If it was two battles- semi-final and final- it would have been okay. And Ash did struggle quite a bit in the semi final and final.

Those two battles, no matter how good they are, still showed two rounds. It doesn't forgive that Ash has been absent from the spotlight and overall affected the pacing of the league. Those two battles did not fix the pacing of the league nor did it fix the fact he didn't seem to earn it. A minute long montage of Ash's battles to music would have made me more forgiving. It's like Transformers 4. The dinobots were highly promoted and yet didn't do anything until the last leg of the movie.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Those two battles, no matter how good they are, still showed two rounds. It doesn't forgive that Ash has been absent from the spotlight and overall affected the pacing of the league. Those two battles did not fix the pacing of the league nor did it fix the fact he didn't seem to earn it. A minute long montage of Ash's battles to music would have made me more forgiving. It's like Transformers 4. The dinobots were highly promoted and yet didn't do anything until the last leg of the movie.

Actually, it's difficult to understand why the writers skipped Ash vs Titus by wasting screentime on the Furfrou trainer. Ash most probably swept through Titus's team with Ash-Greninja. Ash vs Astrid also should've been shown fully. Ash-Greninja one-shotted Altaria and Hawlucha was shown to take down Mega Absol with authority. So there was an impression that Ash really battled well out there.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
Actually, it's difficult to understand why the writers skipped Ash vs Titus by wasting screentime on the Furfrou trainer. Ash most probably swept through Titus's team with Ash-Greninja. Ash vs Astrid also should've been shown fully. Ash-Greninja one-shotted Altaria and Hawlucha was shown to take down Mega Absol with authority. So there was an impression that Ash really battled well out there.

Like I said, show he swept them, don't tell us. The fact we have to make assumptions about the payoff of a league arc is something that I roll my eyes at. Assumptions are dangerous, especially when you don't know your opponent at all.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Like I said, show he swept them, don't tell us. The fact we have to make assumptions about the payoff of a league arc is something that I roll my eyes at. Assumptions are dangerous, especially when you don't know your opponent at all.

I know that there isn't any concrete evidence, but it was evident that Titus's Pokemon were not up to the level of Ash-Greninja, Altaria got one-shotted by a Water Shuriken. After Ash-Greninja's easy victory the battle was skipped, which gives us an idea that Ash swept the battle. And it is also difficult to imagine any of Titus's Pokemon defeating Ash-Greninja, which was shown to be be the second most powerful Pokemon in the League after MC-X.
 
Last edited:

DankOverlord

Komodo Dragons Rule!
I know that there isn't any concrete evidence, but it was evident that Titus's Pokemon were not up to the level of Ash-Greninja, Altaria got one-shotted by a Water Shuriken. After Ash-Greninja's easy victory the battle was skipped, which gives us an idea that Ash swept the battle. And it is also difficult to imagine any of Titus's Pokemon defeating Ash-Greninja, which was shown to be be the second most powerful Pokemon in the League after Ash-Greninja.

Wait so Ash Greninja is stronger than Ash greninja? Guess the old saying. "Don't trust anyone not even yourself" was right LOL.
Also as long as we don't know what happened we can't infer anything, its grasping at straws as much as anyone who thought Mega Zard X was boosted by the mega ring and absorbed Greninja's power which let him win (Which turned out to be pure bs in the end)
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Wait so Ash Greninja is stronger than Ash greninja? Guess the old saying. "Don't trust anyone not even yourself" was right LOL.
Also as long as we don't know what happened we can't infer its grasping at straws just like anyone who thought Mega Zard X was boosted by the mega ring and absorbed Greninja's power

Sorry, edited that. Guess I mistyped that.
I know there wasn't any firm evidence, but we know that Ash won the battle. And that the battle was skipped right after Ash-Greninja's easy victory might imply that it was an easy win like a clean sweep.
 
Last edited:

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
I know that there isn't any concrete evidence, but it was evident that Titus's Pokemon were not up to the level of Ash-Greninja, Altaria got one-shotted by a Water Shuriken. After Ash-Greninja's easy victory the battle was skipped, which gives us an idea that Ash swept the battle. And it is also difficult to imagine any of Titus's Pokemon defeating Ash-Greninja, which was shown to be be the second most powerful Pokemon in the League after MC-X.

We know one pokemon, Altaria. That is it. We cannot make these assumptions unless we have some basis for them. He could be packing a fairy squad and wiped out half of Ash's team that's not AG. We simply aren't presented with enough evidence if Ash swept everything, if Titus had an attack like Roar which caused the pokemon to retreat back into the ball, or even if there was divine intervention.
 

DankOverlord

Komodo Dragons Rule!
We know one pokemon, Altaria. That is it. We cannot make these assumptions unless we have some basis for them. He could be packing a fairy squad and wiped out half of Ash's team that's not AG. We simply aren't presented with enough evidence if Ash swept everything, if Titus had an attack like Roar which caused the pokemon to retreat back into the ball, or even if there was divine intervention.

For all we know, Titus slipped out an UB which knocked Greninja out and alter got beaten by Pikachu LOL. That's how far I can interpret the whole so-called "match"
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
For all we know, Titus slipped out an UB which knocked Greninja out and alter got beaten by Pikachu LOL. That's how far I can interpret the whole so-called "match"

That sounds quite ridiculous, that's why I think it was a sweep.
 

DankOverlord

Komodo Dragons Rule!
That sounds quite ridiculous, that's why I think it was a sweep.

Eh it could be anything and we should just leave the whole debate die, it doesn't even makes sense since anything could've happened.
And as logn as we don't see the full match we won't know what happened
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
That sounds quite ridiculous, that's why I think it was a sweep.

And him pulling our an attack like roar against AG and then pulling a fairy-type that sweeps his dragon, dragon/flying, fighting/flying squad isn't out of bounds. We have no clue.
 
Top