DP Arc End revealed?

[Champion Jared 14]

Everyone might as well...I don't see any others saying otherwise...Oh, we're resorting to personal attacks...but you didn't pick up on MOST of my sarcasm...perhaps I should clue you in when I do use it...DP

 

[ijea4444]

Everyone might as well...I don't see any others saying otherwise...Oh, we're resorting to personal attacks...but you didn't pick up on MOST of my sarcasm...perhaps I should clue you in when I do use it...DP

1. Its not a personal attack. Where did I say Champion Jared 14 [insert insult here]?
Once again please use a dictionary.

2. Its the internet. 95% of sarcasm is in the tone. Sorry I don't have supersonic ears that can hear noise from wherever you are.

 

[thunderblade12]

Wow, people are so upset and sad that DP is ending...the "supposed" best arc in pokemon...And it seems like so many have jumped on the bandwagon...Everyone hates Kanto and Johto...but if it wasn't for the mistakes made back then, we wouldn't have had an AG or a DP or a BW so...

People think DP is better, so what? At least they don't go out of their way to attack the older series like most of the DP-haters do most of the time. You and RickHoenn, for example.

There's lots of things that went wrong in DP.

I can see that you really split a lot of hairs with this list just to make it seem long, but the sad part is I would be able to create a list longer than this with actual content from the Kanto saga. In fact, I will. And just for fun I'll use your list as a jump-off point:

They never used Team Galactic's theme from the games in the show, and it was AMAZING.

They never had Team Rocket's story involved in the Kanto saga at all. They tossed three losers at us that interupted the stuff we actually wanted to see in the anime and called it a day.

Also, not playing a specific type of music is kinda specific isn't it? Is it really a big enough reason for this saga to be as crappy as you say?

Ash gave Aipom to Dawn, it evolved, and she released it to play ping pong.

Ash released Pidgeot as soon as it evolved, promised it he'd return, and never returned.

Ash had Primeape for a grand total of four episodes. Great team handling, writers.

Butterfree was around for around for a measly 20 episodes and never really did anything of value while it was around.

While Ash had Aipom, the writers were giving the impression that Ash may take up coordinating till around the Wallace Cup.

Umm... no? That's like me saying Ash falsely promising Pidgeot he'd return one day gives the impression that he's a horrible person and is, in fact, worst than Paul. At least Paul is straight up and tells his pokemon how it is rather than keeping them waiting countless years for nothing.

Of course this is not true either, but it makes about as much sense as Ash becoming a coordinator just because he entered one contest.

They waited till DP to show Wallace.

Ya see? This is one of the reasons I said you're really spliting hairs to create a beefy list of faults for DP. Shouldn't this be taken up to the Hoenn saga? It is the saga Wallace should have appeared in, after all. If anything, DP should be praised for finally righting a wrong and having the guy appear.

Besides, where was Agatha and Lance in Kanto?

Ash gave away Gliscor only to return to a main rival battle.

Charizard? Oh, yes, I forgot. Charizard's "speshul" so it doesn't count. How silly of me.

Brock was pretty much ignored all the way through this region.[/QUOTE

And Johto, and Hoenn, and, ya know, KANTO (his debut region.) Brock got involvement in the Team Galactic arc which, while it may not be much, is more than what can be said for any previous saga.

Dawn seemed to get focused on less after the Wallace Cup arc.

Misty got less focus than Ash throughout her entire run in the series.

Dawn had WAY too many contest rivals and they got poor development.

Kanto only had one rival, and yet he still didn't get any development until 270 episodes later in the Johto saga. What's hilarious (in an "aww, how sad" kinda way) is that Gary was the only rival back then and yet he got around the same number of appearances as one of the lesser shown DP rivals... Nando and Kenny for example.

Brock only got like two new pokemon.

Zubat and Vulpix? Pineco and... Pineco? AG is the only saga that gave him more than two and that was just so that Bonsly could be taken to Sinnoh.

They let Sudowoodo learn Hammer Arm and not do ANYTHING with it.

Is this really a good reason to fault the entire saga? Really? Graspin' at straws, Jared. Graspin' at straws.

A lot of the reasons involve Brock somehow. If anyone can point out a large role any of Brock's pokemon have had, they deserve a cookie for being the best fanfiction writer on the interwebs. Aside from that one contest Marshtomp entered, a grueling battle against Team Rocket from Steelix, and a random rivalry from Croagunk, none of Brock's pokemon have ever done jack squat.

Besides Pidgeoto (one of Ash's pokemon) evolved and then was released. That's a whole lot worse than Sudowoodo (one of Brock's pokemon) learning some attack and never doing anything with it.

I honestly think Croagunk got more screentime than Brock, and especially a bigger role with the whole rivalry with Saturn's Toxicroak.

Cool dude, this is like the fifth time you used Brock as an excuse. Just sayin'

Chimchar>>> Monferno>>> Infernape Paul to Ash development, took up a lot of time and screen time from Ash's other pokemon

Charizard...Pikachu...yeah

BlazeFerno/BlazeFernape has been done to death...

SeismicInstaDeath has been done to death

BLAZE is the mose overused ability in pokemon now

Kinda needed to use the same excuse twice in a row for length's sake, huh?

They let Buizel go on a steady losing streak after the Hearthome Gym.

Squirtle didn't get a major win until the League =)

The group chemistry was HORRIBLE in DP

The group chemistry in Kanto is OVERRATED. If I may quote the Nostalgia Critic:

"A lot of people say these characters have no personality, I disagree

Brock has the personality of a rock
Misty has the personality of mud
and Ash has the distinct personality of sandpaper"

While this may be a bit unfair, I do agree that this saga is lacking on chemistry. Not a complete delusional fanboy that can't admit my favorite character/saga does have it's problems like some people. However, to be fair, the show was never really big on 3-dimensional characters and the interactions among those characters. Not an excuse, I'm just saying.

Brock and Dawn never really became good friends. It was almost like the adventures of Ash and Dawn, and some third Wheel guy

Mulligan?

They gave Dawn Togekiss, from a Dawn clone, like 10 episodes before the Grand Festival, and uses it in it's finale battle, and Dawn STILL lost the Grand Festival

So random CoTD A's Togekiss is suddenly supposed to be at champion level strength? It's amazing that the thing did as well as it did against Zoey considering Dawn's had it for such a short amount of time and Sylvia wouldn't have had time to train it herself (that's the whole reason she gave it to Dawn after all.)

Krabby evolving during a League battle, sweeping the trainer it was matched against, and Ash still losing the Kanto League... Is my next counter.

Ursula NEVER beat Dawn in a contest ever, but she was arguably one of Dawn's best rivals

Ash never battled Gary once throughout the whole Kanto arc. Hardly a rivalry.

The Grand Festival was rushed, and the battle between Dawn and Jessie was awful

Aside from Ash vs Blaine, every gym in Kanto was either rushed or skipped completely. The League too. Two real battles and that's all(both of which were only 3 on 3.)


I'm only using Kanto as an example because that's the one you seem to hold so highly on the pedestal, BTW. By stating that it's automatically superior due simply to being the original series.

They let Jessie get to the GF ultimately for failure.

Well, what did you really expect? She made it to the top 4, which is incredible. She had to beat a handful of coordinators that each earned five ribbons just to make it that far in the Festival.

Would you rather go back to the days where Team Rocket were just clowns that did nothing but spooge filler episode after filler episode at us?

People are still in denial about the number of filler episodes that DP had, because they were mislead by "interesting" or "funny" events.

No one's denying that episodes like the Dusknoir, Spiritomb, Bibarel, Togepi, and episodes like that are fillers. We simply state that, unlike other regions, the fillers that DP does indeed have are interesting rather than the same formulaic bullcrap over and over. Even so, with these episodes counted as filler the DP series collectively has around the same number of fillers as AG. This isn't some conspiracy that the DP fanbase is making up, count the episodes for yourself.

The same can be said for Kanto though. People fail to realize how many fillers it actually had due to it's small amount of episodes. In reality, a great deal of the episodes between each gym were filler. Even certain episodes that can be viewed as "important," are they really? Did it really matter that Ash caught a Primeape? Never did a damn thing while it was there, never seen the thing again. It's capture and departure episodes could be considered two fillers. Although, that really depends on who's counting.

There's a lot more that was wrong with DP, but that's all I can name off the top of my head.

'Kay, I've got plenty more for the Kanto saga just off the top of my head

[spoil]

Cliche slapstick comedy being considered "comedy gold" by nostalgic fans.

No real direction for Ash. He didn't develop. At all.

Not explaining anything. Everything was left to our imagination. What exactly IS a Pokemon Master? At least the newer sagas try to explain Ash's goal a bit more clearly.

Misty and Brock, why do you exist? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the characters. Personally I think they should have created anime-only characters instead of degrading gym leaders with what they did to Misty and Brock, but that's beside the point. Why couldn't they do anything with them? Misty's goal? They couldn't have made the Whirl Cup a usual thing?

Team Rocket. Arggh, I'm so glad these guys just sit in the background through important events these days.

Pity badges. It's almost like they were patting Ash on the back and saying "it's okay that you suck, here you go." Not to mention how pathetic Charizard made him look. can't believe he made it as far in his first League as he did. Surely there must have been trainers that traveled through multiple regions and had powerhouse pokemon that DIDN'T disobey them. If he were paired off against any of his opponents from the Johto, Hoenn, or Sinnoh Leagues early on he would have lost. Even the guy Ash lost to had mostly unevolved pokemon. But, I guess for plot's sake they had to tone down that League so Ash wouldn't look like a complete wuss. As Real badass protagonist, guys.

For that matter, Ash doing better than Gary in the League? A guy that only earned one badge 100% fairly did better than a guy that earned ten? Well, maybe May/Dawn do have a chance of beating someone like Gary or Paul.

The writers having PokeTourettes. Decide on a team of six and make that Ash's team for crying out loud. The saga's only eighty episodes long and we don't see Ash's pokemon in most of those episodes anyway. We're not gonna get tired of them, promise.

If it weren't for the Orange Islands and Johto redemption the Kanto team would have been the worst one to date. The Kanto saga truly did nothing to prove these guy's strength and shouldn't be praised for it. Even Charizard wasn't great during the Kanto saga. It had a difficult time taking down a gym leader's pokemon just like any other one of Ash's pokemon (Magmar and Pidgeot.) But just for the sake of convenience, let's claim that Blaine and Falkner are infinite levels higher than their fellow gym leaders, shall we? The Orange Islands and Johto saga, and later the Battle Frontier, are the only reason we don't say "I wish Ash would bring Squirtle/Snorlax back. That thing seriously needs a few wins under it's belt."

The side cast. Well... there wasn't one

The antagonists... Mewtwo? Does he count? I'm stretching it here. He was pretty cool, right? Giovanni? Hell, I don't know. He could be threatening if he ever got out of his seat... maybe.

"Original plots and ideas." Original for pokemon? Yes. But the plots of many of the filler episodes are by no means original. Many things from the show were direc references to other anime or TV shows.


Remember, this is a kids show and always has been. They didn't just decide to tone down the "intense violence" during AG and DP. I can't stand when people act like Kanto was so dark and edgy. Subjects like death were rare then and it's rare now. Hunter J is the first recurring character to actually be shown being killed on screen (in the actual episodes, not a movie) if it means anything. What's that? It doesn't? My sentiments exactly. And neither does the ghost at Maiden's Peak.



[/spoil]

Aside from that, the "it's nostalgic so it's automatically better and the newer stuff wouldn't even exist without it" is the lamest excuse I ever heard. It should be acknowledged for kicking the series off to greatness, but that certainly doesn't make it the best at anything. IMO the writers have evolved and each passing saga has been getting better and better. They're learning from their mistakes and trying not to repeat them. If anything, Best Wishes will probably be even better than DP. Again, that's just my opinion.

No one's saying that DP is perfect. Why does it make you so angry that you'd go off topic to bash the saga just because you see that it has a lot of fans? It's like those trolls that attack random music videos Youtube. "LOL Avenged Sevenfold, Parkway Drive, n Slipknot? Yew lyke this emo nu metal gayass monkey crap? yew shuld listn two reel metal lyke Hestacoop (what means a horse's ****.)" It's like those butthurt 15 year olds that aren't emotionally stable enough to comprehend and deal with the fact that others may have conflicting opinions. IT'S NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL, IT'S A TV SHOW. No need to go out of your way to attack people for liking it. It'd be one thing if this thread was "Which Saga is the Best?" or something along those lines, but it's not.

I'm seriously not trying to attack Kanto, or any other saga for that matter. I'm really not. I'm just giving my opinion just as you gave yours. I seriously thought saga/character bashing was against the rules. Sense it doesn't seem to be an issue anymore I guess a counter argument like this is fine too.

/Rant.

 

[Champion Jared 14]

I just...can't with you...Pokemon isn't the same as how it was...Unlike some people, I can appreciate what we were given back in Kanto/Johto. Of course it wasn't perfect. No arc is. But the things that they didn't do, all the what ifs, couldas, wouldas, shoulda dones on behalf of the writers are what they are doing now...AG and DP wouldn't be what they are if they didn't change the formula from how it was back then, so we wouldn't have it the way it is now had the events that happened back then not taken place. Back then, either we didn't care about the character development, or the new things the writers were doing, or we just wanted more, and were waiting for the changes. Either way, I think it should make us all appreciate what we had and what we are given with the show.

 

[deathseer]

Pfft. That's a complete load.

The old series doesn't account for the new one. Even if mistakes were made in the past, they still do run in to them from time to time. They are by no means perfect, so they still make those mistakes.

If anything, all they are doing now is trying out new things rather than "learning from their mistakes".

 

[thunderblade12]

I just...can't with you...Pokemon isn't the same as how it was...Unlike some people, I can appreciate what we were given back in Kanto/Johto. Of course it wasn't perfect. No arc is. But the things that they didn't do, all the what ifs, couldas, wouldas, shoulda dones on behalf of the writers are what they are doing now...AG and DP wouldn't be what they are if they didn't change the formula from how it was back then, so we wouldn't have it the way it is now had the events that happened back then not taken place. Back then, either we didn't care about the character development, or the new things the writers were doing, or we just wanted more, and were waiting for the changes. Either way, I think it should make us all appreciate what we had and what we are given with the show.

Well that's all well and good. As someone's said before, no one said you shouldn't think the older sagas are better or anything against the older sagas at all. You're the one that seems to take offense when others appreciate
what the newer sagas are giving us. Even going out of your way to create a big, off-topic rant as to why DP is absolute crap.

 

[Champion Jared 14]

Oh? But you clearly missed the rants about how lots of people was talking about how dreadful Kanto and Johto were, then?

 

[Silver_Seoul]

Oh? But you clearly missed the rants about how lots of people was talking about how dreadful Kanto and Johto were, then?

Okay, this whole conflict between you and everybody started because they were saying they'd miss DP, the "best saga" in their eyes. Then everyone pointed out that just because they'd miss DP doesn't mean they wished Kanto and Johto had never existed. Seriously. Chill out guys.

 

[thunderblade12]

^ Basically sums up what I was about to say. I didn't see a single person saying Kanto/Johto sucked. Maybe expressing that they believe DP is the best saga so far, but nothing against the others.

 

[Champion Jared 14]

Indigo Kanto: Horrible, had nothing going for it aside from Humor.
Johto: Just as terrible, if not worse due to the fillers.
Hoenn: Getting better, seeing some new stuff hook people on.
BF: Getting really good, people like seeing the way everyone is being handled.
DP: Just absolutely full of surprises. Most unpredictable saga to date.

you were saying?

 

[Silver_Seoul]

you were saying?

Never mentioned that it shouldn't have existed. Nazis were horrible, but from the comparison someone made earlier, you can hate your horrible Grandfather because he was a Nazi but that doesn't mean you wish he never existed.

 

[Champion Jared 14]

What the hell is with you and these Nazi comparisons?? Clearly someone's been stalking the posts of Ijea4444too many four's to make these crazy assumptions...

 

[Silver_Seoul]

What the hell is with you and these Nazi comparisons?? Clearly someone's been stalking the posts of Ijea4444too many four's to make these crazy assumptions...

That's my first post about the Nazi comparison. Fine, here's another. You're a nature activist and your dad is a lumberjack. You can hate him, but you're not really wishing he didn't exist.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

So 9/9 it seemsd will be last episode of DP leaving to us about 6 episodes(more or less) until BW starts.Well Sinnoh was a good region,not the greatest in my opinion but pretty good.It had some interesting things going for it with some improvements being met like Ash getting real rival in form of Paul,Team Galactic beng treated much better than Magma and Aqua,Dawn showing biggest progression coordinator wise so far almos winning whole Gf on first try etc.

However in terms of group chemistry,originality from some arcs aswell being acompanied with lack of some older characters DP was dissapointing.In my opinion original trio had best chemistry,and while new series improved in some things in exchange some things have gotten worse with show losing some sort of identity it had before.

Aside from Ash vs Blaine, every gym in Kanto was either rushed or skipped completely. The League too. Two real battles and that's all(both of which were only 3 on 3.)

To be fair,writers deserve some credit regarding these things.By taking into account how they were just starting not having as much knowleadge like they do now,aswell being originally planned that pokemon ends with just one season explains alot.

No real direction for Ash. He didn't develop. At all.

He came top 16 in Indigo league,showing how he made some progress not being complete noo like he was when he just started travelling.

Personally I think they should have created anime-only characters instead of degrading gym leaders with what they did to Misty and Brock, but that's beside the point.

Anime canon and game canon are two different things with first not being obligated to blindly follow games.In games they were gym leaders,in anime they becam travelling companions leaving their positions to pursue their own goals.

Why couldn't they do anything with them? Misty's goal? They couldn't have made the Whirl Cup a usual thing?

Lack of experience,poor planning with writers doing some mistakes aswell undispose for her character coming from their side(mainly ex head writer Takeshi Shudo)caused this things.

 

[Himaro Aurora]

Well so long DP, its been a good run, and you currently hold record for the best saga so far in my mind, let's hope Isshu will be better yet.

Yeah I have to agree with you on that one, I think the sinnoh saga has been the best so far even though I tend to favour the Advance Gen..
& I have a great fealing about Isshu..I honestly believe its going to be the best yet..

 

[Himaro Aurora]

Well that's all well and good. As someone's said before, no one said you shouldn't think the older sagas are better or anything against the older sagas at all. You're the one that seems to take offense when others appreciate
what the newer sagas are giving us. Even going out of your way to create a big, off-topic rant as to why DP is absolute crap.

I completly agree with you thunderblade12, unfortunately we have people on this forumn that don't understand basic concepts.

Okay, this whole conflict between you and everybody started because they were saying they'd miss DP, the "best saga" in their eyes. Then everyone pointed out that just because they'd miss DP doesn't mean they wished Kanto and Johto had never existed. Seriously. Chill out guys.

Yeah, but the fact you were constantly attempting to degrade the sinnoh saga, only provoked a certain response. Anyways this thread wasn't created for such and we are going completely off-topic, enough said.

 

[Silver_Seoul]

Yeah, but the fact you were constantly attempting to degrade the sinnoh saga, only provoked a certain response. Anyways this thread wasn't created for such and we are going completely off-topic, enough said.

I never degraded the Sinnoh Saga? If anything I praised it for how much better it was than the previous sagas, but I was stating that doesn't mean I hate all previous sagas.

 

[TheNewGuy]

wow, thunderblade. You are so obsessed with making Charizard look awful XD

You'd think after I comprehensively showed you last time how wrong you were you'd let up.

Though of course, DP > all. Storytelling wise it's just been a better arc than anything that's come before. Better rivals, Pokemon handled better, evolutions. Gliscor returning was all the proof I needed that the writers now have faith in their audience, faith that we won't forget about Ash's random releases anymore. So they teased us by temporarily releasing the weakest Pokemon on his team only for him to come back (presumably) stronger. I think Ambipom's release is the sole black spot on the saga, that and not doing enough with Brock maybe. Otherwise, this is more or less as good as it gets.

 

[deathseer]

Charizard isn't as great as everyone makes it out to be. That is what he merely tries to point out.

 

[TheNewGuy]

But he is.

His main point is that Charizard isn't great because of "plot power" - but plot dictates that he IS Ash's strongest Pokemon. Aside from the fact that Charizard has the most impressive win/loss record throughout the saga (and it does), the characters themselves generally think Charizard is the strongest. When it lost to Dusclops and Blaziken everyone was surprised. Brock and Misty said using Charizard was almost becoming an unfair advantage. The writers used Charizard when they wanted Ash to overpower someone for the sake of the story - for instance, Charizard was bought out against the Chikorita he would eventually capture in order to show the gulf in power between the two (as well as Chikorita's gutsiness), and was used against Casey's Pidgey and Rattata, again, in order to show the gulf in power between the two Pokemon. The plot has made it quite clear to the audience that Charizard is Ash's strongest.

Yes, plot does mean Pokemon sometimes appear stronger or weaker than they "should" be - such as Torkoal keeping it close with Registeel - and it definitely isn't transitive. Pointing that out doesn't make you "meta". It's obvious.

I posted this pic before but I'll do it again. The power of each Pokemon fluctuates between certain parameters. Bear in mind this is a rough guide, but...

http://i36.*******.com/142ctp0.png

Red is Charizard, Yellow is Pikachu and Blue is Totodile. Totodile should probably be lower, but it's a very rough guide. All it does is illustrate my point that while power does fluctuate, it fluctuates in between parameters specific to that Pokemon.