DP Ash vs XY Ash Who's The Better Trainer

[izmir]

XY Ash is better. DP Ash lost to E4 Flint so easily, on the other hand XY Ash gave Champion Diantha a hard time.

 

[Frozocrone]

Apparently you people need to rewatch XYZ 23 to see exactly what would have happened if Ash called Water Shuriken at the start (Charizard would dodge it and strike an open Greninja with a direct hit Dragon Claw). Ash had the right idea to move in closer but Alain was just a split second faster in calling out Flamethrower so Ash instead opted for Cut as that requires much less curve time (not that WS takes long to fire but we’re talking fractions of seconds here) and the rain allowed Greninja to maneuver more easily around Flamethrower since Rain Dance would decrease its volume.

The Pokecenter battle stage and League battle stage are not the same size. There would have been enough time for Greninja to react after firing Water Shuriken. In addition, in the same episode Bisharp gets extremely close to Greninja who merely hops away before firing.

- the speed of Pikachu’s Thunderbolt is much faster than that of Raichu’s Thunder a.k.a Thunderbolt would have hit Sceptile before it finished the transformation hence Scpeitle opted to cancel it instead.

Mega Evolution can also be used to block hits, as Gardevoir showed.

- He was checking to see if Pikachu could strike before King’s Shield to effect. After seeing that Pikachu couldn’t Ash altered his strategy accordingly

He and Pikachu are clearly shown to be taken aback, look at the shocked expressions on their face.

- well he only had 5 Kalos Pokémon and wanted to battle with hisregional team so what else could he do. Besides Noivern is/an underrated Pokémon (was able to inflict non-trivial damage on legendary, got praise from Alain, beat Clemont’s Bunnelby who like Pikachu is strong for its evolution lvl and had a good showing vs Salamence)

Use reserves? Maybe he might have said to the Kalos team they're the best team to pump them up but he and we know that's not true and GPICSS would be his best shot.

Noivern only did well against Zapdos because it's more agile and could use the battlefield rocks to out maneuver Zapdos (which XY Ash should be given credit for noticing, much like vs Sawyer and trees). In both league cases where the skies were clear, Noivern failed to pick up a win. I'd argue it only got a draw because the smoke inhibited Salamence. It's not a powerhouse.

Also while Counter Shield did contribute to the SL Paul battle it was minor at best and never the deciding factor.

Counter Shield was clutch in other battles. The Paul battle had other strategies on display, Gliscor Giga Impact rollback, Flare Blitz/Dig to remove To, Volt Tackle to lure Paul in close to Pikachu, Close Combat on ground to escape, Mach Punch miss to unlock Infernapes Blaze, Ice Aqua Jet and the original Iron Tail jump, Ice Shard Jump.

 

[Akkipeddi]

Counter Shield was clutch in other battles. The Paul battle had other strategies on display, Gliscor Giga Impact rollback, Flare Blitz/Dig to remove To, Volt Tackle to lure Paul in close to Pikachu, Close Combat on ground to escape, Mach Punch miss to unlock Infernapes Blaze, Ice Aqua Jet and the original Iron Tail jump, Ice Shard Jump.

Barring Entry Hazards, the Ash vs Alain final did have a lot of other strategies as well. Pikachu splashing water to get rid of Sand Stream, Noivern's echolation to find Weavile, and Alain's Weavile freezing Noivern's wings, and going up the Waterfall to beat it. Pikachu getting on Metagross and Thunderbolting it. The Ash Greninja vs MCX was a mixture of great power and tactics, with MCX using Flamethrower on all the Double Team clones, using Water Shuriken to block Blast Burn, Water Shuriken used to block Thunder punches.

Yes, maybe the Ash vs Paul battle had slightly more skills involved, but let's not act as though the Ash vs Alain didn't have any and that it was a power fest.

Use reserves? Maybe he might have said to the Kalos team they're the best team to pump them up but he and we know that's not true and GPICSS would be his best shot.

You know, while seeing reserves is a nice touch, I'd say that barring the Nando match, they didn't really contribute too much to Ash's Sinnoh League success. Ultimately in the Ash vs Paul battle, Ash ended up using his native Sinnoh team. We can say the same thing, if Ash used his team of Pikachu / Charizard / Infernape / Sceptile /Snorlax / Heracross against Paul, he probably would have defeated him convincingly. But he didn't, so does that make DP Ash dumb? No, it doesn't, and similarly, it doesn't make XY Ash dumb for wanting to stick with his Kalos team.

 

[Genaller]

The Pokecenter battle stage and League battle stage are not the same size. There would have been enough time for Greninja to react after firing Water Shuriken. In addition, in the same episode Bisharp gets extremely close to Greninja who merely hops away before firing.



Mega Evolution can also be used to block hits, as Gardevoir showed.



He and Pikachu are clearly shown to be taken aback, look at the shocked expressions on their face.



Use reserves? Maybe he might have said to the Kalos team they're the best team to pump them up but he and we know that's not true and GPICSS would be his best shot.

Noivern only did well against Zapdos because it's more agile and could use the battlefield rocks to out maneuver Zapdos (which XY Ash should be given credit for noticing, much like vs Sawyer and trees). In both league cases where the skies were clear, Noivern failed to pick up a win. I'd argue it only got a draw because the smoke inhibited Salamence. It's not a powerhouse.



Counter Shield was clutch in other battles. The Paul battle had other strategies on display, Gliscor Giga Impact rollback, Flare Blitz/Dig to remove To, Volt Tackle to lure Paul in close to Pikachu, Close Combat on ground to escape, Mach Punch miss to unlock Infernapes Blaze, Ice Aqua Jet and the original Iron Tail jump, Ice Shard Jump.

If Greninja used WS at the start then it would have been dodged followed by a DC. That’s my point.

It was the form itself and not the transformation sequence that blocked IA-G’s attack. What I mean is the transformation finished an instant before IA-G’s Attack made contact. A similar thing happened withTorterra vs Garchomp where Garchomp’s immobility wore just an instant before FP would have made contact allowing here to block.

You’re sort of right he makes a clear statement about it the instant he sees King’s Shield. It’s probably much easier for Ash to remember stuff he’s faced first hand rather than just witnessed as an inactive observer and still the consequences are minor and he immediately alters his approach afterwards. It still doesn’t even begin to compare to DP Ash’s Volt Tackle folly that has far more signifcant and long term consequences for the battle.

When Ash said “best team” I believe he meant best team out of team combinations that he’s actually used which would put it over the combination Ash used against Tobias which I’m guessing would still be a bold claim for many on this forum. Why didn’t DP Ash use Charizard and Snorlax against Tobias (they cover the same types as Torkoal + Swellow and those 2 were dead weight in that battle)?

Legendaries have a very high floor so the fact that Noivern’s Attack could inflict any non-trivial damage is impressive. He had a really close battle with Metang and even got Alain’s praise. He did his job by beating Doublade in vs Sayer 3 and this was strictly after Sawyer got is PIPU. He beat Clemont’s Bunnelby that was portrayed to be strong for its evolution lvl like Pikachu and even had a rivalry with early/mid Kalos Pikachu. It’s battle with Salamence was solid and while Weavile was its worst showing it still didn’t look weak there and mainly lost because of a quad weakness to Ice.You also can’t deny that echolation is a neat secondary skill to have. Noivern is about Tauros lvl (both have literally the same battle record, only fought strong opponents and even tied with a Psuedo) so take that as you will.

It was only a major factor in vs Fantina and even then Fantina was able to counter it. Yeah I’m very familiar with Ash vs Paul SL (I’ve watched it 100s of times over) so I know all of the complexity involved in it (what else is expected when you give the best writer in the anime 3 Episodes to craft a battle culminating in the end to the greatest rivalry of the series). I will say again that while the reasoning behind VT sort of made sense in isolation (though it was still a gamble), it was a pretty big folly in the long term since it needlessly let Electivire walk into the final battle with augmented speed stacking the deck even further against Infernape which is why I claimed counter to XB that DP Ash does not have good long term foresight (quite the opposite honestly).

EDIT: On my XY Team vs Tobias team point the way I see it:

A-Pikachu > T-Pikachu (2 further regions of cumulative experience)
A-G > Sceptile
Hawlucha < Heracross
Talonflame < Swellow
Goodra >= Torkoal
Noivern < Gible

So while the Tobias combination is more well rounded overall, I do think A-G and A-Pikachu more than make up for the difference between the lower Pokémon based on where I rate them which I guess is pretty consistent with the “Pikachu and A-G hard carrying” meme that people love to bring up.

 

[Rajas]

EDIT: On my XY Team vs Tobias team point the way I see it:

A-Pikachu > T-Pikachu (2 further regions of cumulative experience)
A-G > Sceptile
Hawlucha < Heracross
Talonflame < Swellow
Goodra >= Torkoal
Noivern < Gible

So while the Tobias combination is more well rounded overall, I do think A-G and A-Pikachu more than make up for the difference between the lower Pokémon based on where I rate them which I guess is pretty consistent with the “Pikachu and A-G hard carrying” meme that people love to bring up.

I'd argue Hawlucha is better because he has a high stamina and took down Astrid's mega Absol. Swellow is probably the most OP bird he has due to his lightning near vulnerability though.

 

[Genaller]

I'd argue Hawlucha is better because he has a high stamina and took down Astrid's mega Absol. Swellow is probably the most OP bird he has due to his lightning near vulnerability though.

Heracross did match a region sweeping Darkai in terms of raw power which I don’t think Hawlucha could do (though Hawlucha can certainly give Heracross a tough fight). Based on portrayal in the Tobias battle I’d argue that SL Heracross is better than even Swellow (and it does make sense given that Heracross is the strongest Pokémon of Johto).

 

[Grey Wind]

I think the difference is pretty negligible. Both series focused a lot on battling, Ash's skills as a trainer, and had him overcome tough opponents to progress far in the league. I'd lean towards XY, if only because that series was obviously trying to frame him as an exceptional trainer.

 

[Rajas]

Heracross did match a region sweeping Darkai in terms of raw power which I don’t think Hawlucha could do (though Hawlucha can certainly give Heracross a tough fight). Based on portrayal in the Tobias battle I’d argue that SL Heracross is better than even Swellow (and it does make sense given that Heracross is the strongest Pokémon of Johto).

Fair enough, if they fought I'd see it coming down to stamina anyways so it's hard to call for me but if I was to be fair, if XY Ash was battling with Heracross that'd change everything as well.

 

[Genaller]

I think the difference is pretty negligible. Both series focused a lot on battling, Ash's skills as a trainer, and had him overcome tough opponents to progress far in the league. I'd lean towards XY, if only because that series was obviously trying to frame him as an exceptional trainer.

I agree. Given equivalent teams the 2 Ashes would have a highly competitive match.

Fair enough, if they fought I'd see it coming down to stamina anyways so it's hard to call for me but if I was to be fair, if XY Ash was battling with Heracross that'd change everything as well.

To be fair Hawlucha definitely has a shot at winning some of the matches if we were to put Hawlucha vs Heracross through a 10 match simulation particularly if Hawlucha can land a solid hit with his quad effective finisher Flying Press.

 

[Rajas]

I agree. Given equivalent teams the 2 Ashes would have a highly competitive match.



To be fair Hawlucha definitely has a shot at winning some of the matches if we were to put Hawlucha vs Heracross through a 10 match simulation particularly if Hawlucha can land a solid hit with his quad effective finisher Flying Press.

yeah that's why I'm most likely 50/50 with them lmao

 

[SH65]

Ok how about DP Ash vs Sawyer and XY Ash vs Paul

 

[Janovy]

Ok how about DP Ash vs Sawyer and XY Ash vs Paul

DP Ash obliterates Sawyer.

XY Ash loses to Paul since he's incapable of switching out or thinking strategically. Paul pretty much crushes him.

Of course no Megas/special forms are involved to make this a fair fight.

 

[SH65]

DP Ash obliterates Sawyer.

XY Ash loses to Paul since he's incapable of switching out or thinking strategically. Paul pretty much crushes him.

Of course no Megas/special forms are involved to make this a fair fight.

How are DP Ash and Paul going to win?

 

[345ash-greninja]

DP Ash probably looses to Sawyer.

XY Ash demolishes Paul since he is way stronger and superior in skill. Ash-Greninja pretty much sweeps.

There, fixed. So many errors there.

DP Ash vs Sawyer:

Buizel vs Clawitzer- Clawitzer
Gible vs Clawitzer- Gible
Gible vs Aegislash- Aegislash
Torterra vs Aegislash- Draw
Gliscor vs Salamemce- Gliscor
Gliscor vs Slaking- Slaking (due to Counter)
Pikachu vs Slaking- Pikachu
Pikachu vs Slurpuff- Pikachu
Pikachu vs Mega Sceptile- Mega Sceptile(decisively due to Lighting Rod)
Blaze Infernape vs Mega Sceptile- Mega Sceptile or Draw

Battle ends in a draw or Sawyer wins barely.

XY Ash vs Paul

Noivern vs Froslass- Froslass
Talonflame vs Froslass- Talonflame
Talonflame vs Magmortar- Magmortar
Hawlucha vs Magmortar- Draw
Goodra vs Ursaring- Ursaring(quite damaged)
Pikachu vs Ursaring- Pikachu
Pikachu vs Drapion- Pikachu
Pikachu vs Electivire- Motordrive Electivire
Ash-Greninja vs Electivire- Ash-Greninja
Ash-Greninja vs Torterra- Ash-Greninja

XY Ash wins 6-5.

Or, more funnily:

Pikachu vs Froslass- Pikachu
Pikachu vs Magmortar- Pikachu
Pikachu vs Ursaring- Pikachu
Pikachu vs Drapion- Drapion
Ash-Greninja vs Drapion- Ash-Greninja
Ash-Greninja vs Electivire- Ash-Greninja
Ash-Greninja vs Torterra- Ash-Greninja (barely)
.
XY Ash wins 6-1.

 

[Genaller]

Ok how about DP Ash vs Sawyer and XY Ash vs Paul

Gliscor vs Saloing -> Draw (GI Counter KOs Gliscor but GI still damaged Slaking enough for the KO)
P-Pikachu vs Clawitzer -> P-Pikachu
P-Pikachu vs Aegeslash -> Draw
Gible vs Salamence -> Gible (recalled)
Buizel vs Slurpuff -> Buizel (harder match than most would think)
Buizel vs Scpeitle -> Sceptile (easy RK)
(Blaze) Infernape vs Mega Scpeitle -> Mega Sceptile (takes considerable damage from Bazeape)
At this point I don’t think Gible and Torterra can really do anything against MS so I’d say MS would just sweep them in the aggregate match but maybe DP Ash thinks of some unconvential strategy to get the remaining damage though DP Ash would have an easier time getting to Scpeitle thanks to switching and in general slightly better non-Ace Pokémon.

As for XY Ash vs SL Paul:

S-Pikachu vs Aggron -> S-Pikachu (recalled)
Goodra vs Gastrodon -> Goodra
Goodra vs Drapion -> Drapion
Noivern vs Drapion -> Drapion
S-Pikachu vs Drapion -> Draw
Hawlucha vs Ninjask -> Hawlucha
Hawlucha vs Froslass -> Froslass (easy RK)
Talonflame vs Froslass -> Froslass (tough match)
Greninja vs Froslass -> Greninja (easy RK)
Greninja <-> Ash-Greninja vs Electivire -> Ash-Greninja (convincingly)

P-Pikachu = vs SL Paul Pikachu and S-Pikachu = vs KL Sawyer Pikachu. I think both these Pikachu are in the t-1 spectrum though I’d give S-Pikachu the Edge since Kalos Pikachu was simply a more consistently strong Pokémon.

EDIT: Lol so I guess no Blaze cuz that’s a “special” form and if anyone says “but it’s an ability” well then “battle bond is an ability so tough luck”.

 

[Navin]

The fact that most trainers early on in XY had no concept of mix-ups and had one-dimensional strategies which honestly wasn't much different in late XY(Z). There's not much thinking involved when all battles are determined by who has more firepower simply because XY(Z) trainers only used their resource to convert into raw power rather than a mix of strength, speed, tactics, willpower, and persistence. DP Ash had to face all that and eventually forced him to apply some basic combat theory into his hyper aggression style.

The XY gym leaders and at the league, Sawyer and Alain, did test Ash. But as a whole, it just wasn't to the extent that DP Ash was tested throughout that region in terms of both firepower and strategy by Paul and others.

You know, while seeing reserves is a nice touch, I'd say that barring the Nando match, they didn't really contribute too much to Ash's Sinnoh League success. Ultimately in the Ash vs Paul battle, Ash ended up using his native Sinnoh team. We can say the same thing, if Ash used his team of Pikachu / Charizard / Infernape / Sceptile /Snorlax / Heracross against Paul, he probably would have defeated him convincingly. But he didn't, so does that make DP Ash dumb? No, it doesn't, and similarly, it doesn't make XY Ash dumb for wanting to stick with his Kalos team.

Ash used the same team for revenge/redemption for Lake Acuity. Against Tobias, DP Ash picked Sceptile (powerhouse), Swellow (best aerial option assuming Charizard was unavailable), and Torkoal - all had experience against legendaries. Gible was a gimmicky wild card option (can't beat Tobias through sheer firepower), and Heracross was SE against Darkrai. Lastly, Pikachu. The only Pokemon Ash really needed to bring against Alain was Greninja.

 

[Genaller]

The XY gym leaders and at the league, Sawyer and Alain, did test Ash. But as a whole, it just wasn't to the extent that DP Ash was tested throughout that region in terms of both firepower and strategy by Paul and others.



Ash used the same team for revenge/redemption for Lake Acuity. Against Tobias, DP Ash picked Sceptile (powerhouse), Swellow (best aerial option assuming Charizard was unavailable), and Torkoal - all had experience against legendaries. Gible was a gimmicky wild card option (can't beat Tobias through sheer firepower), and Heracross was SE against Darkrai. Lastly, Pikachu. The only Pokemon Ash really needed to bring against Alain was Greninja.

That’s a fair interpretation.

Well why didn’t he use Snorlax (pretty sure he wouldn’t have been dead weight)? Also BW kind of reduces the number of excuses for Charizard since it shows that he could just travel to Oak’s lab and get transported if Ash was in some far off region. I mean are we seriously considering my headcanon on the matter O_O...? In a “meta” sense Alain’s team would have just been augmented to match GPICSS and we all know it.

 

[Dephender]

I think we're done here. This is clearly not a topic you can discuss peacefully.