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DP170 & 171 - Bertha and Togekiss

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Ash-kid

Ash-kid
Oh wow. I just can't wait :D
It will be a GRAND SURPRISE. I think that's why TV Tokyo & Pokemon Japanese site haven't revealed new titles (except DP170 171). Normally Pokemon Japanese site reveals 4 new titles (whether its a one hour special or not) but this time only two. TV Tokyo haven't revealed any new title either (look at the down bar of the TV Tokyo dp site, it's empty).
Something big is going to happen on April 1 (I don't think it will be an april fool kind of stuff, it will be something epic related to the anime just like Candy-Musalina & thunderblade12 said).

it's always fascinating to see an E4 member, I hope that Bertha will use Golem vs Ash but I'm not sure against who Golem is fighting, maybe even vs TR. The next title should be about Togekiss as slokingsley said so I won't see it as a surprise unless the GF will start there, unexpectedly.
 

Slowking[George]

#SPP-WiFi HOP
torterra looked badass in the preview, and quite agile for that matter. Paul's one could never move like that. It's interesting that for a battle between ground pokemons, none is using a ground attack, or even a STAB attack for that matter.

Yeah I definitely agree with you as it is worrying not to see Ash launch a barrage of Grass type moves against Bertha and Hippowdon. I mean if he doesn't use super effective moves (which he hopefully will in the actual episode) how does he expect to win? Still, it's just a preview. Can't wait for Bertha. :V
 

dawn hater

Well-Known Member
I agree with HoennMaster on the first point. He's not going to teach every move he happens to see to one of his pokemon. Right now it's just random, baseless speculation to say it'll learn Iron Head.

As for the second point, this Togekiss belongs to a princess who apparently has no contest training or skills. Getting an untrained pokemon this late in the game may actually be a hinderance for Dawn. Just being a certain species of pokemon isn't enough. We've seen Dragonite get one-shotted by Paul's Honchkrow. And I'm sure even Ash's weakest pokemon would be able to defeat that random kid's Tyranitar from the Politoed episode. The trainer and amount of training the pokemon has also matters.

If you use some deductive reasoning there you can see that there is five to one chance that Ash will teach Iron Head to Torterra. First of all we are Torterra can learn it by move tutor, it is a steel type move that will help against Ice type Pokemon, they are showing it in a preview and Torterra needs a move of different types for type coverage. If we collect all points we can see that it is fairly possible that Torterra might learn iron Head. And that means it is not a baseless speculation and in that case you are wrong.

I would like to remind you that Honchkrow is one of the best Pokemon that Paul has, hence it stays with him. Togekiss in this case has lot of training as you can see it has fair amount of powerful moves which when compared to Staraptor's move will mean that both the birds are quite equal in power and experience. Now is the one with baseless speculation?

Slowking[George];11158381 said:
Yeah I definitely agree with you as it is worrying not to see Ash launch a barrage of Grass type moves against Bertha and Hippowdon. I mean if he doesn't use super effective moves (which he hopefully will in the actual episode) how does he expect to win? Still, it's just a preview. Can't wait for Bertha. :V

Ash must have learned from full battle against Paul that using a lot of moves against a tank is not much of a use. If Torterra can take a lot of attacks then same can be said for Hippowdon Ash is definitely learning from his defeats or maybe it is just the preview. Maybe in actual episode Torterra might have used lot of attacks first (which Hippowdon must have countered or took without much problem) then shifted to Rock Climb.
 

Nacreous

Fire trainer
I would like to remind you that Honchkrow is one of the best Pokemon that Paul has, hence it stays with him. Togekiss in this case has lot of training as you can see it has fair amount of powerful moves which when compared to Staraptor's move will mean that both the birds are quite equal in power and experience. Now is the one with baseless speculation?
Hmm...Togekiss could be a parallel to Staraptor...they kinda have a similar movepool:
Air Slash-Aerial Ace
Sky Attack-Brave Bird
Aura Sphere-Close Combat
Extremespeed-Quick Attack
 

streetlightdsb

Uni hiatus
If you use some deductive reasoning there you can see that there is five to one chance that Ash will teach Iron Head to Torterra. First of all we are Torterra can learn it by move tutor, it is a steel type move that will help against Ice type Pokemon, they are showing it in a preview and Torterra needs a move of different types for type coverage. If we collect all points we can see that it is fairly possible that Torterra might learn iron Head. And that means it is not a baseless speculation and in that case you are wrong.

Five to one seems like a very arbitrary amount, I don't know where you pulled that number from. Of course it's possible that Torterra will learn Iron Head, but it's still baseless speculation. If there was a clip in the preview of Ash training with Torterra immediately after having Iron Head used on him, then it wouldn't be baseless, but there's nothing there that suggests concretely that Torterra will learn it, so thunderblade isn't really wrong.

Besides, Ash saw Iron Head ages ago, in DP057 (according to Bulbapedia), why would he suddenly decide now to teach it? Not to mention Torterra learnt an attack when it evolved like 3 episodes ago. It's quite unlikely to learn a new attack at all for the rest of the saga, let alone now.


I would like to remind you that Honchkrow is one of the best Pokemon that Paul has, hence it stays with him. Togekiss in this case has lot of training as you can see it has fair amount of powerful moves which when compared to Staraptor's move will mean that both the birds are quite equal in power and experience. Now is the one with baseless speculation?

You just shot someone's suggestion of Togekiss teaching Staraptor Sky Attack in favour of Heat Wave (definite baseless speculation) just a page or so ago... Don't have a go at others for baseless speculation when you do it yourself.


Ash must have learned from full battle against Paul that using a lot of moves against a tank is not much of a use. If Torterra can take a lot of attacks then same can be said for Hippowdon Ash is definitely learning from his defeats or maybe it is just the preview. Maybe in actual episode Torterra might have used lot of attacks first (which Hippowdon must have countered or took without much problem) then shifted to Rock Climb.

How else are you supposed to beat a tank other than to repeatedly hit it as hard as you can? But yeah I agree, that Rock Climb/ Iron Head clip is probably midway or towards the end of the battle. I see Rock Climb as sort of Ash's surprise move with Torterra.

Comments are in bold

About Togekiss' moveset, I'd be perfectly happy with the four moves it learns naturally. Air Slash, Aura Sphere, Sky Attack and Extremespeed are all awesome moves. I couldn't care less whether it's using Aura or not. Has anyone actually complained about it?
 

dawn hater

Well-Known Member
Five to one seems like a very arbitrary amount, I don't know where you pulled that number from. Of course it's possible that Torterra will learn Iron Head, but it's still baseless speculation. If there was a clip in the preview of Ash training with Torterra immediately after having Iron Head used on him, then it wouldn't be baseless, but there's nothing there that suggests concretely that Torterra will learn it, so thunderblade isn't really wrong.
Besides, Ash saw Iron Head ages ago, in DP057 (according to Bulbapedia), why would he suddenly decide now to teach it? Not to mention Torterra learnt an attack when it evolved like 3 episodes ago. It's quite unlikely to learn a new attack at all for the rest of the saga, let alone now.

You didn't got the point. Even though Iron Head debuted in DP057, at that time Torterra was a Turtwig and Turtwig\Grotle can't learn the move. If you calculate the my points from last time and add this one then you will find out that I posted five points and so the ratio is five to one. Guess its not baseless after all.

You just shot someone's suggestion of Togekiss teaching Staraptor Sky Attack in favour of Heat Wave (definite baseless speculation) just a page or so ago... Don't have a go at others for baseless speculation when you do it yourself.

In that case I was saying that Staraptor should learn something that gives it type coverage. Learning Sky Attack won't be a big help but by learning Heat wave, it could take the place of Gliscor(the other flyer with fire type move). And I never stated that Staraptor will learn it from Togekiss so it was not baseless at that time too.

How else are you supposed to beat a tank other than to repeatedly hit it as hard as you can?

You have to use stat boosting move than hit. Like if you want to take out a Snorlax with help of Infernape then you can keep hitting with Close Combat and there are some chances that opponent will use rest and all your hard hitting work goes to waste. Instead if you use Swords Dance one time, you can own the battle cause then Infernpae just sweeps everyone that comes in range. But in Torterra's case it would have to stop Hippowdon from using defensive moves and its upto Ash on how he plan to do it.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
We'll probably get a prewiew of the upcoming episodes, like we got at the end of the Galactic Arc and for the Snowpoint arc i think... but i'm not sure it will be about the anime, it also could be about new games.

This actually makes lots of sense. Because after all April 1st is when the Pokemon Anime first came out (In Japan) so what better way to celebrate the past then to show us the upcoming episodes.

Of course at this point, what could they show without spoiling GF and Sinnoh League stuff?

Hopefully Ash's reserves if they will be in the Sinnoh League.


General Statement said:
Torterra will be the one that makes Torterra learn Iron Head

How does this make any sense whatsoever? Hippowdon is a ground type, and is Bertha's Pokemon, if Torterra were to learn any type move from battling Bertha's Pokemon, Ground type makes the most sense not some random steel type.

The only explanation is that iron head would in fact be used as a defense against ice types. And even then a ground type move makes more sense given the circumstances (it has rock climb and even though they are different types, having both wouldn't be interesting at all in Torterra's case).
 

streetlightdsb

Uni hiatus
You didn't got the point. Even though Iron Head debuted in DP057, at that time Torterra was a Turtwig and Turtwig\Grotle can't learn the move. If you calculate the my points from last time and add this one then you will find out that I posted five points and so the ratio is five to one. Guess its not baseless after all.

Yeah, I got that you made five points. It doesn't mean that there's a five to one chance of learning it. Probability has nothing to do with which moves Pokemon learn. That comes down to our lords and masters the writers. Anyway, Ash is always seeing moves that his Pokemon can use, and he doesn't always jump into teaching them that move. Has he taught Pikachu Light Screen after seeing Electabuzz using it? No. He only teaches moves that he sees as special or strong, and I doubt he feels that way about Iron Head, as he has seen it before and didn't seem to impressed even thenYes it is still baseless. Obviously you didn't read my post, as I described what baseles speculation was, there's nothing solid that suggests that it will learn Iron Head, only your opinion.


In that case I was saying that Staraptor should learn something that gives it type coverage. Learning Sky Attack won't be a big help but by learning Heat wave, it could take the place of Gliscor(the other flyer with fire type move). And I never stated that Staraptor will learn it from Togekiss so it was not baseless at that time too.

Word to the wise, don't mention Gliscor, some people will go cuckoo. Personally, I think Staraptor's moveset is fine as it is, but a new move would be cool. And someone else suggested it learning Sky Attack from Togekiss, I didn't say you did. Again, there's nothing to suggest that Staraptor will learn Heatwave, so it's still baseless.


You have to use stat boosting move than hit. Like if you want to take out a Snorlax with help of Infernape then you can keep hitting with Close Combat and there are some chances that opponent will use rest and all your hard hitting work goes to waste. Instead if you use Swords Dance one time, you can own the battle cause then Infernpae just sweeps everyone that comes in range. But in Torterra's case it would have to stop Hippowdon from using defensive moves and its upto Ash on how he plan to do it.

So you keep hitting it as hard as you can, pretty much like I said... And competitive battling doesn't really apply to the Anime.

Comments in bold.

God I'm sick of the word baseless now.
 

Trainer Yusuf

VolcaniNO
How does this make any sense whatsoever? Hippowdon is a ground type, and is Bertha's Pokemon, if Torterra were to learn any type move from battling Bertha's Pokemon, Ground type makes the most sense not some random steel type.
Hippowdon seems to be using Iron Head in the preview.
 

dawn hater

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I got that you made five points. It doesn't mean that there's a five to one chance of learning it. Probability has nothing to do with which moves Pokemon learn. That comes down to our lords and masters the writers. Anyway, Ash is always seeing moves that his Pokemon can use, and he doesn't always jump into teaching them that move. Has he taught Pikachu Light Screen after seeing Electabuzz using it? No. He only teaches moves that he sees as special or strong, and I doubt he feels that way about Iron Head, as he has seen it before and didn't seem to impressed even then Yes it is still baseless. Obviously you didn't read my post, as I described what baseles speculation was, there's nothing solid that suggests that it will learn Iron Head, only your opinion.

Maybe because at that time no member of Ash's team was able to learn it. Its as simple as that. And I think we are here to suggest our opinion, thats why we call it speculation. However if you just wanted a fight you could have PM'ed me. Now what is baseless and what is not is your own opinion. If Torterra learns Iron Head in near future then your view might change. as of now we stand on desperate ground to suggest whats going to happen in this episode. We can just speculate and I speculated Torterra learning Iron Head and that is the purpose of Anime Spoiler.

Word to the wise, don't mention Gliscor, some people will go cuckoo. Personally, I think Staraptor's moveset is fine as it is, but a new move would be cool. And someone else suggested it learning Sky Attack from Togekiss, I didn't say you did. Again, there's nothing to suggest that Staraptor will learn Heatwave, so it's still baseless.

Again, Staraptor learning Heat Wave is as baseless as learning Sky Attack. However if it somehow(mind the word) learns Heat Wave then it will get the type coverage and if it learns Roost then it will get some back up after using Brave Bird.

So you keep hitting it as hard as you can, pretty much like I said... And competitive battling doesn't really apply to the Anime.

I think you didn't got my point. I said power up then hit, not hit again and again. Hitting harder and hitting repetitively is different thing. And competive battling do apply to Anime now that we are in 4th gen we see people using stat boosting move like Paul's Ursaring using Bulk Up and his Weavile using Swords Dance not to forget Palmer's Rhyperior using Rock Polish. maybe by next gen trainers will start using items too.
 

streetlightdsb

Uni hiatus
Maybe because at that time no member of Ash's team was able to learn it. Its as simple as that. And I think we are here to suggest our opinion, thats why we call it speculation. However if you just wanted a fight you could have PM'ed me. Now what is baseless and what is not is your own opinion. If Torterra learns Iron Head in near future then your view might change. as of now we stand on desperate ground to suggest whats going to happen in this episode. We can just speculate and I speculated Torterra learning Iron Head and that is the purpose of Anime Spoiler.



Again, Staraptor learning Heat Wave is as baseless as learning Sky Attack. However if it somehow(mind the word) learns Heat Wave then it will get the type coverage and if it learns Roost then it will get some back up after using Brave Bird.



I think you didn't got my point. I said power up then hit, not hit again and again. Hitting harder and hitting repetitively is different thing. And competive battling do apply to Anime now that we are in 4th gen we see people using stat boosting move like Paul's Ursaring using Bulk Up and his Weavile using Swords Dance not to forget Palmer's Rhyperior using Rock Polish. maybe by next gen trainers will start using items too.

I'm not going to bother with you after this post because you're just not reading what I'm saying. I'm not starting a fight either. You're being agressive. What's baseless speculation is not my opinion, it's speculating on absolutely nothing official. We are here to speculate, but if everyone starts speculating random things that look and are unlikely to happen at a certain point, then whole threads will get spammed up with nonsense and random "maybe Ash will trade Staraptor for Croagunk with Brock" rubbish. Of course if it learns Iron Head my views will change. But right now, it's unlikely it will learn it, for the points I made above.

You're contradicting yourself about Staraptor and Heatwave, as you brought it up, and then said you weren't making random speculations. I didn't suggest it learning a new move at all, that was you and another poster. Now you're saying it was baseless speculation.

I did get what you were saying, but what I meant was whether you power up or not, to take down a tank you have to hit it as hard as you can as many times as necessary in order for it to faint. I think we were just getting our wires crossed here.

Fair point about the stat-up moves, but what I mean is that, while in a competitive battle, if (I'll use your example) Infernape has used Swords Dance, it's able to sweep quite easily (in certain circumstances) in the Anime, it using Swords Dance wouldn't necessarily mean it sweeps. The opponent could bring out a strong Physical Blissey (which would be raped in-game by a +2 Close Combat from Infernape) and still beat the Infernape. I used the Blissey example to show that the Anime does not care about the competitive metagame in the sense of which moves and stats work best with a Pokemon, as a Blissey has awful Attack and should be used as a special wall. That's what I mean by the Anime not caring about competitive.
 

Waterpokes

Well-Known Member
Would be cool if Staraptor learned a new attack.
Not that Staraptor has a bad moveset, but maybe a ranged attack would be considered?
Heat Wave or Ominious Wind are both ranged attacks, and Staraptor, even though having Brave Bird and Close Combat, the two only attacks that stands out, are good, some varity in the attacks is good.

Anyway, to the preview.

Bertha has shown me more personallity then Aaron ever did. Even though that's not very impressing. And Torterra running fast? I'm not surprised. If that isn't Rock Climb, then so much for "Defencive Torterra". Nevertheless, Bertha episode is promising.

Is that Dawn competiting? Or that Princess? Either way, this episodes seems decent-to-terrible. When two people switch place, it always ends up with that unoriginal ending, with both of them trying to explain why they changed and all that crap. Togekiss might make up for that, but I wouldn't be surprised if it got an ending like I mentioned.

And I'm not a fan of Dawn-centrics, so I wouldn't care that much. But Togekiss is coming, so I have to watch the episode.

And one thing. I missed the episode where Dawn and Ash taught kids. Did Jessie win that ribbon?
 

Trainer Yusuf

VolcaniNO

psbigg

Well-Known Member
it seems to me that ash's torterra is getting more powerfull than paul's and i still consider that the 2 toreterras will fight sometime and consider me stupid but ash's torterra has alot of advantages over paul's torterra which are:
1.leaf storm vs giga drain
2.we all know that pauls toreterra is a tank pkmn which dosent move much so if ash's toreterra uses rock climb paul's torterra is a standing target
 

gpt11

Well-Known Member
it seems to me that ash's torterra is getting more powerfull than paul's and i still consider that the 2 toreterras will fight sometime and consider me stupid but ash's torterra has alot of advantages over paul's torterra which are:
1.leaf storm vs giga drain
2.we all know that pauls toreterra is a tank pkmn which dosent move much so if ash's toreterra uses rock climb paul's torterra is a standing target


Paul's Torterra knows Leaf storm aswel also Frenzy Plant, Hyper Beam, Stone Edge, Giga Drain and Crunch

Ash's Torterra knows Rock Climb, Razor leaf, Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, Tackle, Bite and Synthesis

Looking at the attacks i'd say that Pauls Torterra has the advantage not Ash's
 

streetlightdsb

Uni hiatus
Paul's Torterra knows Leaf storm aswel also Frenzy Plant, Hyper Beam, Stone Edge, Giga Drain and Crunch

Ash's Torterra knows Rock Climb, Razor leaf, Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, Tackle, Bite and Synthesis

Looking at the attacks i'd say that Pauls Torterra has the advantage not Ash's

Yeah but generally, they do go with the four moves in a battle rule nowadays. I think at this point Paul's has Frenzy Plant, Giga Drain, Stone Edge and Crunch, while Ash's has Leaf Storm, Rock Climb, Energy ball and Synthesis. So it's less one sided than it seems. :p
 

Waterpokes

Well-Known Member
Four moves my ass!

If they want to have Ash's Torterra use Rock Climb, Leaf Storm, Crunch, Energy Ball and Synthesis in the same battle, they'll do it. Paul's Torterra has an advantage, looking at the attacks, but consider the fact that Ash's Torterra comes out as fast and strong, I think Ash's Torterra will have the upper hand.
 

dawn hater

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to bother with you after this post because you're just not reading what I'm saying. I'm not starting a fight either. You're being agressive. What's baseless speculation is not my opinion, it's speculating on absolutely nothing official. We are here to speculate, but if everyone starts speculating random things that look and are unlikely to happen at a certain point, then whole threads will get spammed up with nonsense and random "maybe Ash will trade Staraptor for Croagunk with Brock" rubbish. Of course if it learns Iron Head my views will change. But right now, it's unlikely it will learn it, for the points I made above.

You're contradicting yourself about Staraptor and Heatwave, as you brought it up, and then said you weren't making random speculations. I didn't suggest it learning a new move at all, that was you and another poster. Now you're saying it was baseless speculation.

I did get what you were saying, but what I meant was whether you power up or not, to take down a tank you have to hit it as hard as you can as many times as necessary in order for it to faint. I think we were just getting our wires crossed here.

Fair point about the stat-up moves, but what I mean is that, while in a competitive battle, if (I'll use your example) Infernape has used Swords Dance, it's able to sweep quite easily (in certain circumstances) in the Anime, it using Swords Dance wouldn't necessarily mean it sweeps. The opponent could bring out a strong Physical Blissey (which would be raped in-game by a +2 Close Combat from Infernape) and still beat the Infernape. I used the Blissey example to show that the Anime does not care about the competitive metagame in the sense of which moves and stats work best with a Pokemon, as a Blissey has awful Attack and should be used as a special wall. That's what I mean by the Anime not caring about competitive.

Let me end the discussion with peace as other members might be becoming weary with our 'baseless' talk. In the games Riley gives a Rilou egg to the player and there formed a group of people called Auraholics who started saying that Ash will get the Riolu egg from Riley cause Ash has got Aura connection and all. To other people it seems baseless but to Auraholics it has a basic story which I just explained. So one thing can be baseless to one being while to another it may seem fine.
As for Staraptor talk, I guess I was inclined to Starpator learning Heat Wave that I forgot it might seem baseless now, whatever!
And lastly, Anime not focusing on moves, all of Staraptor moves are Physical. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so cause its stats are fairly based on Physical stat in-game. But as I said earlier, whatever!
Anyways, this conversation between us is over.
 

thunderblade12

Well-Known Member
Yeah but generally, they do go with the four moves in a battle rule nowadays. I think at this point Paul's has Frenzy Plant, Giga Drain, Stone Edge and Crunch, while Ash's has Leaf Storm, Rock Climb, Energy ball and Synthesis. So it's less one sided than it seems. :p

I gotta agree with WaterPokes. Apparently Ursula's Plusle and Minun used a total of six moves during Dawn's last contest. Charge, Charge Beam, Encore, Spark, Helping Hand, and Discharge.

Not to mention Buizel used Water Gun, Sonic Boom, Ice Punch, and Aqua Jet against Flint. I doubt it forgot Water Pulse of all things.

A good explaination for pokemon eventually not using their old moves is that they've simply become obsolete or, in Paul's Torterra's case, they have very few on-screen battles and the ones they do have aren't long enough for it to use each and every one of it's moves. Like Chimchar's Ember. Sense it has Flamthrower, what possible reason would Ash have to use Ember? That'd be like firing a handgun at a zombie while you have a fully loaded rocket launcher (Resident Evil 4).
 

luner45

Oshawott!! Lets go!
when i saw the preview it looked like ash was wining against bertha besides that i dont know how bertha is going to turn it around. is the writers giving ash his first victory against an elite 4??? hopefully!!
 
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