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Dragon Battle! Ash VS Iris!! (1154)

Watershuriken97

Well-Known Member
Of course this forum can end up with people insulting and theory/analyse gatekeeping over a fun episode like this, ash's problem solving is his biggest asset, its not abuse, it's not even necessarily planned ahead, it's quick and out of the box thinking... and even if it's neither or all of these, must we be "right" all the time...



Seeing iris return, and especially grown as a person was great, would have loved to see her reach champ/evolve... but I'm gonna enjoy what we got. The draco meteor was unexpected and looked great, dracovish needs some training but not bad for a first showing, wish he got a hit on haxorus tho. Volkner is nice to see, hope we get some more cool returns like a frontier/e4 soon. And dare i say, a loss for ash? Like 70 back to 90 or smt
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
Volkner is such a random choice.

Where the **** is PAUL????? Bring me back DP characters that matter
Where he belongs...banned from interacting with Pokemon once word finally got out of exactly what happened with Chimchar and reasonable authorities began looking into the matter.
I think the long haired one may be Sabrina
I hope so. She's my favorite Kanto one.
Sabrina would've likely turned all of her challengers into dolls after beating them.
No, no. Ash cured her of that. Unless Haunter left and she regressed.
From a beast Dragonite vs a newbie Dracovish. And the problem is that Angrynite was straight up slaughtering Happynite but then lost to Dracovish without landing a hit. We know that Dracovish is weaker than Happynite.
It's funny how similar this is to the Korrina battle in a lot of ways, with it being a 2 v 2 battle against a former traveling companion who realistically should have been stronger, but is somehow portrayed even weaker. Right down to Dragonite being the star in both battles. Obviously here it's a much bigger deal given the whole champion status and how much we'd seen Iris battle before though. Back when it happened with Korrina you could chalk it up as a fluke, but now it's obvious they've stopped caring about any sort of proper powerscaling. Not that it was ever truly consistent, but it's been completely thrown out the window now
Ah, yes, power scaling, which has definitely always been a thing in this anime and not just random all the time. Definitely.
And what would you want after that? Bonnie as the Kalos champion lmao.
Yes. It's what she deserves.
Iris and her Dragonite having different reactions to Dracovish was both cute in iris case and funny in dragonites.

i just wish i wasn't going to be mentally scarred now because of what Dracovish ended up doing, the thing is a playful deceptive vicious pokemon.
I wouldn't recommend the New Pokemon Snap then.
With one attack Dracovish is now apparently a champion level mon lol

I think there needs to be a official referee of the Unova league present, but that's just a guess of how it works.
No, no, don't you see? Cameron was secretly in the crowd, and by his logic, since he's from Unova, he is therefore an official referee, and since he was in the audience, he can declare Ash the new Champion.
I go to sleep for a few hours and came back to 15 Pages worth of Discussion?

Obvious Haxorus reveal was Obvious

So can we just all agree that Dragonite is Ash's Ace at this point? Because it certainly has done a LOT more work than Lucario has atm lmao

Also WOW that Volkner leak was actually legit? At least I was right about the Luxray merchandise not being Clemonts

Really curious about that girl behind Bea.
As much as I want it to be Sabrina that might open up a whole a can of worms regarding a certain Ghost Type Pokémon
I'm already mad about Ash getting Gengar when he should have just asked to borrow Haunter from Sabrina. And given it an Everstone, because Haunter is way cooler than Gengar.
I kind of felt the same way, but at the same time it seems like Dragonite was the better choice to win the match as a way to show off Iris’s Dragon Master skills. Dragonite has a closer bod with Ash than Dracovish does (at the moment), so it would make more sense for Iris to do her dragon mind meld thing with it to show how close Ash & Dragonite are during the final battle with Haxorus, who’s equally been as close with Iris
People are going to interpret that in the wrong way.
Stop attacking goes both way. If it was Paul instead of Ash, he will command Dragonite to attack while Iris busy talking. Note that before Iris talk, Ash already told Dragonite to prepare to show of their battle style (Goh confirmed that using Hurricane as shield is their battle style).

Now what you said is true in Angrynite vs Happynite. Angrynite stop attacking while Happynite kneeled down. That is holding back.
The DP rival would attack an opposing Pokemon even if it clearly wasn't capable of battling in any manner whatsoever (see: Chimchar).
While I wouldn't say this fight is on those tiers, it was still really well animated (and this is from someone who has been criticizing JN's animation a lot)
Anything is above the Sinnoh battle. Animation isn't worth anything if the story it's wasted on is horrible, abuse-glorifying garbage that denies the fundamental themes of the series and pretends like it's some grand "conflict of ideals".
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Anything is above the Sinnoh battle. Animation isn't worth anything if the story it's wasted on is horrible, abuse-glorifying garbage that denies the fundamental themes of the series and pretends like it's some grand "conflict of ideals".
It would have worked if Paul actually had a punishment for the way he treated his Pokémon, especially Chimchar, but ofc that never happened.
 

Pokemon Fan

Knuckle Trainer
The problem is that if Iris didn't just start the PWC, the implication seems to mean that Volkner and Bea are stronger than her.
To be fair, in the games there is precedent for Gym Leaders in some regions being claimed to be stronger than Champions in other regions (recall the strength they use in gym battles is seldom their real strength). Namely Raihan is claimed to be strong enough to become another region's champion if he was willing to go for such a title outside Galar.

I want to say that this episode really did the "champion" title a disservice in the sense that Iris lost too easily/quickly compared to the power displayed by other champions, but then again from what I remember of the Unova series most of the trainers were not really all that impressive, including their Champion at the time (who sure won what battles we saw easily enough, but not in particularly impressive ways). So perhaps it makes sense that a Unova Champion can be ranked so low in the PWC.

Still, I think this battle would have been received more positively if Iris didn't have such a grand title attached to her all the sudden.
 

Sham

Shall, I show you a true Champion time?
To be fair, in the games there is precedent for Gym Leaders in some regions being claimed to be stronger than Champions in other regions (recall the strength they use in gym battles is seldom their real strength). Namely Raihan is claimed to be strong enough to become another region's champion if he was willing to go for such a title outside Galar.

I want to say that this episode really did the "champion" title a disservice in the sense that Iris lost too easily/quickly compared to the power displayed by other champions, but then again from what I remember of the Unova series most of the trainers were not really all that impressive, including their Champion at the time (who sure won what battles we saw easily enough, but not in particularly impressive ways). So perhaps it makes sense that a Unova Champion can be ranked so low in the PWC.

Still, I think this battle would have been received more positively if Iris didn't have such a grand title attached to her all the sudden.
Disagree this didn’t do a disservice to the champion title. First of all we don’t know if Iris was going all out. Secondly it’s clear that being champion isn’t Iris’ number one priority and it’s always been becoming a Dragon Master which she isn’t yet. Helping Ash throughout his problem instead of taking the easy route and potentially dominating him shows character and it shows her growth as a Champion. Compare this to when Ash battled Iris when Dragonite was out of control and he simply just attacked and won the battle. Iris prioritized Dragonites happiness and rooting for Ash/Dragonite over winning. At least there is context behind this... Diantha on the other hand.
 
I want to say that this episode really did the "champion" title a disservice in the sense that Iris lost too easily/quickly compared to the power displayed by other champions, but then again from what I remember of the Unova series most of the trainers were not really all that impressive, including their Champion at the time (who sure won what battles we saw easily enough, but not in particularly impressive ways). So perhaps it makes sense that a Unova Champion can be ranked so low in the PWC.

Still, I think this battle would have been received more positively if Iris didn't have such a grand title attached to her all the sudden.
Yeah, it's unfortunate that this is how the Champion position is treated. I mentioned this in my write-up on the episode, but it's one thing for the anime to pursue a storyline where it showcases Champions/E4s being beatable, but this was just done in such a lazy and unbelievable fashion that I really just found it insulting to both Iris and previous regions.

It's just incredible, but very expected that they provided basically zero context to how Iris became Champion in the first place. Dephender hit the mark when he said it was just glossed over like it didn't matter. The entire episode just lost a lot of weight and tension because of it.

For sure, if Iris had came back a gym leader, I definitely would have enjoyed the episode a lot more.
 
This battle only came up short for several reasons:

1) Iris being a Champion didn't exactly give her that sense of a strong trainer. Actually, she's more of...a professional dragon therapist. With a glowing hand that'd make Jedi jealous.
2) Dracovish owning Angrynite in ONE move with Ice Fang (somewhere...Georgia smiled for no reason). Angrynite is allegedly a veteran at this point...and it got Mega Lucario'd.
3) It was a stinking 2-on-2 (again, against a CHAMPION) because, as always, the episode wastes time setting everything up to the actual battle. Ash's 2-parters be damned!
4) The fact Iris or Drayden didn't exactly elaborate enough for Iris becoming a Champion. I know Alder's a womanizing hobo on his bad days, but, dayum. He was done Hau dirty. For all we know, he died from a concussion from getting slapped hard by Skyla.
5) The fact we're not sure how Iris got this high in the ranking.
6) Exca-who?

I know it's good that Iris somehow earned the right of being a Champion, but she doesn't feel much different than when she was with Ash. Was evolving Axew enough for her to become a Gym Leader before evolving into Haxorus completely won Drayden over? Who knows. This episode seriously needed to be a 2-parter.
 
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To be fair, in the games there is precedent for Gym Leaders in some regions being claimed to be stronger than Champions in other regions (recall the strength they use in gym battles is seldom their real strength). Namely Raihan is claimed to be strong enough to become another region's champion if he was willing to go for such a title outside Galar.

I want to say that this episode really did the "champion" title a disservice in the sense that Iris lost too easily/quickly compared to the power displayed by other champions, but then again from what I remember of the Unova series most of the trainers were not really all that impressive, including their Champion at the time (who sure won what battles we saw easily enough, but not in particularly impressive ways). So perhaps it makes sense that a Unova Champion can be ranked so low in the PWC.

Still, I think this battle would have been received more positively if Iris didn't have such a grand title attached to her all the sudden.
Losing against Alola Champion doesn't do a disservice toward Unova Champion.

Iris rank low because she just start entering PWC. Just as Ash, the Alola Champion also start from low rank.

If the current Iris fought BW Ash, Ash will be decimated.

To be fair, if they had rematch straight away after this battle, Iris might come out victorious as she already understand Dracovish's weakness.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
To be fair, in the games there is precedent for Gym Leaders in some regions being claimed to be stronger than Champions in other regions (recall the strength they use in gym battles is seldom their real strength). Namely Raihan is claimed to be strong enough to become another region's champion if he was willing to go for such a title outside Galar.

I want to say that this episode really did the "champion" title a disservice in the sense that Iris lost too easily/quickly compared to the power displayed by other champions, but then again from what I remember of the Unova series most of the trainers were not really all that impressive, including their Champion at the time (who sure won what battles we saw easily enough, but not in particularly impressive ways). So perhaps it makes sense that a Unova Champion can be ranked so low in the PWC.

Still, I think this battle would have been received more positively if Iris didn't have such a grand title attached to her all the sudden.
This is not a disservice, Iris did an awesome battle and prioritize the feelings of the opponents Pokémon to have an actual fair battle when your opponent is at full potential was great. Also she doesn't lost against a nobody, Ash is the strongest trainer from a region too such as Iris is, it was a battle between two of the strongest trainers
 

Sham

Shall, I show you a true Champion time?
Also I have yet to get an explanation how that Dragonite tanked two Dragon Rushes, Thunder Punch, Pyscho Cut, Outrage and Breaking Swipe but Iris’ Dragonite went down to a Pokémon who was just recently caught Ice Fang in one shot despite tanking Mamowsine’s multiple Ice Shard and Ice Fang and Mamowsine was trained longer by Dawn.
 

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
Also I have yet to get an explanation how that Dragonite tanked two Dragon Rushes, Thunder Punch, Pyscho Cut, Outrage and Breaking Swipe but Iris’ Dragonite went down to a Pokémon who was just recently caught Ice Fang in one shot despite tanking Mamowsine’s multiple Ice Shard and Ice Fang and Mamowsine was trained longer by Dawn.
*checks script*
Says here "because plot"
Sorry

E0yBgd7UcAA0wwo.jpg
Lotta fun times ahead, by the look of things
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Also I have yet to get an explanation how that Dragonite tanked two Dragon Rushes, Thunder Punch, Pyscho Cut, Outrage and Breaking Swipe but Iris’ Dragonite went down to a Pokémon who was just recently caught Ice Fang in one shot despite tanking Mamowsine’s multiple Ice Shard and Ice Fang and Mamowsine was trained longer by Dawn.
the flow of Journey's battles are all over the place so some Pokemon will tank like crazy and others will go down in 1-2 hits and its usually never really related to the stamina of the specific Pokemon it usually is the writers just rushing or dragging out a conclusions to fit the episode run time rather then trying to make it feel organic.

Thats not to say it ruined the battle for me or anything, that's just what happens when you rigidly stick to a one episode format that no one wanted or likes.

Also Iris "devaluing" the Champion title or some such nonesense isnt true at all, or are we gonna complain how Steven became Champion in XY with no explanation for what happened to Walalce?
 

k6666

Pikachu Fan
Also I have yet to get an explanation how that Dragonite tanked two Dragon Rushes, Thunder Punch, Pyscho Cut, Outrage and Breaking Swipe but Iris’ Dragonite went down to a Pokémon who was just recently caught Ice Fang in one shot despite tanking Mamowsine’s multiple Ice Shard and Ice Fang and Mamowsine was trained longer by Dawn.
I think dracovish had strong jaw ability , I think he didn’t one shot it , ash use bite or fishious rend to caught angrynite follow up with 4 super effective ice fang boost with strong jaw and iris caught of guard

I like the episode but the battle is so rush especially angrynite vs mr fish like iya happen like 5-10 sec

screw flabebe filler , iris deserve more
 
This is not a disservice, Iris did an awesome battle and prioritize the feelings of the opponents Pokémon to have an actual justice battle when your opponent is at full potential was great. Also she doesn't lost against a nobody, Ash is the strongest trainer from a region too such as Iris is, it was a battle between two of the strongest trainers
...Ash didn't use his Alola Pokemon against Iris. He didn't even use Pikachu which would have gave the battle more credibility. The " Ash is the strongest trainer from Alola " line would make sense if he was using the Pokemon that gave him the title. Instead, he's using Pokemon that haven't been shown to have that kind of prowess. I understand the whole Dragonites are inherently powerful argument, but his best feat is beating 1v2ing Korrina and the leap from that to beating supposedly Champion level Pokemon is just incomprehensible.

And let's not even get started on Dracovish...
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
...Ash didn't use his Alola Pokemon against Iris. He didn't even use Pikachu which would have gave the battle more credibility. The " Ash is the strongest trainer from Alola " line would make sense if he was using the Pokemon that gave him the title. Instead, he's using Pokemon that haven't been shown to have that kind of prowess. I understand the whole Dragonites are inherently powerful argument, but his best feat is beating 1v2ing Korrina and the leap from that to beating supposedly Champion level Pokemon is just incomprehensible.
Would this have been a better episode if Ash's Pokemon went down in 1 hit and Iris didnt struggle at all?
 
Would this have been a better episode if Ash's Pokemon went down in 1 hit and Iris didnt struggle at all?
100% would have been a better episode. It wouldn't have been good or great episode at all as it would have its own share of problems, but it definitely would have been better that what transpired in this episode.
 

Sham

Shall, I show you a true Champion time?
Not to mention Drayden even acknowledged that Haxorus was still not hurt prior to the battle with Dragonite and that Dragonite was hurt. Between all of that and Iris rooting for Ash and stopped focusing on the battle this episode/battle was definitely in Ash’s favor and I don’t think it says much Iris’ role as champion.
 
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