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Dragon Battle! Ash VS Iris!! (1154)

To be fair, I think the narrative of this episode leans more towards Ash facing one of his former companions rather than strictly Ash vs. a Champion. It wasn't just a Champion that we'd want Ash to face towards the end of this tournament, it was his friend. A friend and former traveling partner that we haven't seen in a long time so now we get to see Ash reunite with Iris and have a battle with her in a dragon vs. dragon match where we get some other callbacks throughout the episode. Iris being the Champion is not only a callback to the games, but it meant that she grew as a trainer since the last time we saw her and that she overall is a strong opponent. You can also turn it around and say the same for Ash: he's a trainer that grew even more since Iris last saw him and he's an overall strong opponent.
I think this is a distinction without a difference and doesn't really change anything about my argument. The battle and battles in the anime in general have multiple dimensions to them like how Ash vs Shota battles were one of a mentor and a student and Ash vs Paul battles were one of clashing ideals. Similarly, one of those dimensions is what you've went into here, but that doesn't change the fact that one of the multiple narratives of the battle is Ash facing a Champion. I'm not of the opinion that narrative is less so because of other dimensions of the story.

And one thing I'll add with this PWC. Everyone is at an even playing field at the start. When someone first gets registered for the PWC, they are at the very bottom. The only way to get to the top is to win battles. Obviously, it's more likely that E4 trainers and Champions will be closer to the top because of the probability that they'd win more. But the battle is set up so you are matched with someone in the same rank as you. So if two very strong trainers battle early on, well...chances are one will progress a little further than the other (which is what happened).
No argument here.
Considering that Pikachu is probably the most plot-influenced pokemon out of anyone's, he's probably not the best example. There will probably be a point in this series where we see Pikachu lose to pokemon that Ash's Journeys team will win against. It's not any bias towards Ash's Journeys team, it just happens every series. But also, I don't think you can compare Dragonite and Dracovish to Lycanroc like that when in the same series, Lycanroc (the pokemon that won Ash the league) lost without a win against Kukui (the strongest trainer in Alola), yet Torracat (who had less wins than Lycanroc/multiple losses to Incineroar) beat Incineroar. Just like when Charizard who previously won against an Articuno lost against Brandon but Bulbasaur got a win; different pokemon battles yield different results due to different circumstances. Honestly, that is a copout answer, but it's not wrong, so sometimes you can't really compare things 100%. But if you really want to try to make a comparison, you might as well compare Dragonite and Dracovish to Torracat and Melmetal. In each pair we have a pokemon who we haven't seen a lot of battles from but know that they're pretty solid (Dragonite/Torracat), and a pokemon who's pretty new and we really need to see more from (Dracovish/Melmetal) vs. a very strong trainer (Iris/Kukui) where the battle ended up with Ash winning.
As I mentioned earlier, it's an issue of comparison and development to me between Alola and Journeys, the former which I'm not even a fan of.
In the end, I don't think Ash vs. Iris here is supposed to be that deep, imo. We got Ash, who has grown to be a strong trainer using his two dragons vs. Iris, who has grown to be a strong trainer using two of her dragons and only one can win.
I don't know man, I think the anime still took the battle pretty seriously especially since it was the battle that Ash got into Hyper Class with with pretty heavy consequences for both Journeys and previous regions of the anime.
 
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So your argument every time a trainer faces a new Pokemon, they're equivalent to that example you gave?
Not just new pokemon but newly discovered species. Even Drayden was shocked by Fishious Rend. Dracovish is not balanced, it has super strong jaw, but it is like one trick pokemon, it is not strong enough to take blows and weak at ranged battle. Once Iris figure out about this, Dracovish is a weakling.

That JAW is champion level, but other than the jaw, other parts are mediocre level.

It is like Zanbato sword, too heavy, hard to use, easy to be evaded, but once it hit the damage is insane. Warrior who are caught off-guard will fall prey to this weapon no matter how strong they are.
 
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Spyro39

Well-Known Member
A lot to unpack here:

Pros:
- Happy with Iris' return after 7 years. Her personality remains the same as ever, but she has grown up significantly in both as a trainer and a person, like Aoi said. Props to JN for bringing her back better than ever.

- Haxorus! Great to see him evolve from the little Axew we knew in BW. Glad that the writers surprised us with his appearance like I had hoped.

- Was rooting for Iris to win, but seeing that she would rather help out Ash's Dragonite than to keep beating it down to win, stays true to her character and represents her growth, so I can't be disappointed. Do hope we see more of her in the future.

- Volkner's returning, though I think it will be for one episode.

Cons:
- Should've been a 2-parter. Take out episode 66 or 67 for more room for Iris' return and I think people would've been fine with that.

- Dracovish doesn't get much spotlight here. It one-shots Iris' Dragonite, only for karma to come back to it by being one-shotted by Haxorus.

- No mention of Excadrill nor Gible...


All in all, liked the episode.


About Ash's Dragonite. I'm thinking if Iris wasn't giving Ash's Dragonite a huge confidence boost in the middle of the battle and instead lost, it would've gone through a similar development phase like Lucario and Farfetch'd.
 
Not just that, I felt like his relationship with Infernape felt far more impactful in Sinnoh than anything that happened with Pikachu in that season. He had a few powerful moments with Charizard and Sceptile as well. Honestly, this claim that 'Ash doesn't care about Pokémon who're not Pikachu' feels strange to me.
But where are they all now? Either they leave him or they’re dumped at Oak’s lab. That’s basically my point. He cares for his Pokémon but there’s no commitment to them beyond that region. All that potential just being wasted. That’s why I say his only true loyalty is Pikachu.
 

UltimateNinja

Praying for the holy relics
Episode was not good tbh. Battle was meh and everything else felt flat. Comparing that to the other companion returns, it was rather a disappointment.

Drayden cameo was nice though. Still makes me sad that he wasn't the final leader in Best Wishes instead of Roxie and her bad gym battle with Ash.
 
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UglyToast

Well-Known Member
Holy Mackerel! Alright, I didn't think this episode could top Grookey episode when it comes to the how many pages this episode have right now.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Man I still can't get over how incredible this episode was
It's still hard to digest that Iris returned, axew, that damn axew, that dream in the dream yard, it all came true, it's a Haxorus now, an actual beast of a Haxorus
Dragonite fully obeys, she has a full team now
She's actually a champion like in the games, as good as her game version now, heck id say even better
They retained her personality, the feel of BW. Journeys is ABSOLUTELY incredible with continuity, no argument about it in my mind. It may be rushed but it's handled so perfectly in those 20 min.
This really feels like it fixed a big flaw in BW with regards to Iris character arc
Thank you Journeys, truly thank you. This, all the other character returns, Infernape, it all really adds up to its praise imo, helping balance the criticisms against it
I can understand @Power Up concerns about the powerscaling depicted here, this battle happened early. However I don't think this episode made dracovish op, it still feels a normal Mon that won coz of a strategy based on its characteristics that the opponent had no knowledge about. It's a tactical victory, doesn't mean dracovish is that strong. Dragonite on another hand is definitely portrayed as champion level here and I understand the mixed feelings about that. As a trainer Ash does belong to champion level but does Dragonite warrant that? Let's be honest, it doesn't. Either way we know ash is probably gonna beat other champions and Leon too so they had to start somewhere though I can see why it was kinda early. I don't mind we didn't get more explanation on how iris became champion, that would have taken away from the episode I believe and wasn't needed tbh. Really hope ash defeats an E4 member before taking on another champion
All in all, there is the issue of powerscaling and the implications of champion level and it would have worked better as a 2 parter, but with the 20 minutes they had they executed it perfectly, was perfect for iris and bw fans, great episode with great moments and an enjoyable battle, great characters. Really a top tier episode for me
So damn excited for gary, old mons and rest of the characters now. Mewtwo episode raised my doubts, but all rest of the old characters returning episodes have proved they handle continuity extremely well
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
I question if this was any other character besides Ash who used an untrained recently caught Pokémon alongside another Pokémon who’s had most of their training done off screen would there be as many justifications. Remember when the Alola crew were training off screen for the league and people were eating them up?
 
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Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
I question if this was any other character besides Ash who used a untrained recently caught Pokémon alongside another Pokémon who’s had most of their training done off screen would there be as many justifications. Remember when the Alola crew were training off screen for the league and people were eating them up?
You are saying this about an episode where Iris became a Champion and Axew evolved to his final form off screen ?
 
I question if this was any other character besides Ash who used an untrained recently caught Pokémon alongside another Pokémon who’s had most of their training done off screen would there be as many justifications. Remember when the Alola crew were training off screen for the league and people were eating them up?
Goh's Darmanitan, Golurk, and Flygon.

The part I hate about this series is the off-screen land.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
You are saying this about an episode where Iris became a Champion and Axew evolved to his final form off screen ?
Iris is no longer a main character and therefore I don’t care. By this logic I’m suppose to care about May evolving three different Pokémon off screen and Misty and Brock obtaining megas. Once you’ve been off screen for awhile you’re pretty much fair game usually. Ash is a main character and therefor the writers can show him training and make time instead they choose not to. People were dragging the Alola crew for training off screen (a good example is Lana’s Primarina learning Icy Wind off screen) for the same exact reason.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
You know what is the worst part? This battle happened because Iris invited Ash to have a battle, meaning than the Unova Champion considered Ash to be a worth opponent for the strongest trainer in Unova. Ash should not be underestimated anymore
I interpret that as more "I wanna battle my old friend" rather than "I wanna test my skills against this strong trainer"
 
I interpret that as more "I wanna battle my old friend" rather than "I wanna test my skills against this strong trainer"
The funny thing is Iris want to battle Ash because she think battling Ash will make her stronger... didn't Ash has horrendous performance in Unova league?
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
Iris is no longer a main character and therefore I don’t care. By this logic I’m suppose to care about May evolving three different Pokémon off screen and Misty and Brock obtaining megas. Once you’ve been off screen for awhile you’re pretty much fair game usually. Ash is a main character and therefor the writers can show him training and make time instead they choose not to. People were dragging the Alola crew for training off screen (a good example is Lana’s Primarina learning Icy Wind off screen) for the same exact reason.
I'm seeing far more people dissatisfied with the handling of Ash's team in this season and the over reliance on off screen land than I'm seeing people say the actions are justified.

You are focusing on a small subset. There aren't "as many justifications" as you're seeing.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Little 30 second scenes of Ash training his Pokémon before the plot of the episode gets going is usually all one would need to make this believable but Journeys wants to do the opposite and not have Ash's Pokémon exist unless it's plot relevant which is an issue but it's been talked about to death
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
Sir two people were literally just justifying it in the previous page
In the previous page
I don't think that makes much sense at all as they never portrayed Dracovish to be on that level.

Dracovish is not high level, it has glarring weakness need to be addresed.

My problem is that I've seen little for it be believable that Dragonite could do as well as he did in this battle whereas I'm using the example of Lyranoc who has feats like soloing a Kahuna and did well against an Island Guardian.

I'm not a fan of how it happened, and it's completely on the writers for not being able to develop Dragonite properly.

Like I said, people who dislike the handling have been outspoken about it for a long time. They are not going to speak about it everywhere, but I can bet that the majority are not supporting the creative choice of relying on off screen for progression.

You really are getting worked up about a nothing.
 

Dragonsoldier77

Bittersweet Satisfaction
After the sub i still think this episode was only ok. For journey’s standard i would say it’s one of the better ones, but as far as companion returns the one episode format really brought it down to the ground.

The good points were definitely iris character being handled well, and angrynite’s wtf face when vish came out was the best thing from the episode.

The battle is still just also just ok. I still don’t like how the flow of the battle was pretty much broken with vish, and just overall didn’t like it’s inclusion. Haxorus just standing around and the very little reaction to pikachu were pretty lame as well. I get it’s one of the bigger pokemon, but i feel like it should move more compared to the likes of tytar, agron, or goodra who are more tanky. Well at least it’s outrage looked good.

While i didn’t care about iris becoming champion before, the way it’s just explained away as something that happened kinda irked me. Like giving her the title of champion for this battle felt kinda pointless, and really is just something done because she was one in the games. I really hope they don’t gary casually becominh champion as well during his appearance just cus.

Knowing the next two episode to come really makes it hard to accept this ep not being stretched to two episode to make sure iris goes out with a bang when she’s returning just to battle. Frankly, i don’t really think iris is gonna challenge ash again since it’ll feel kinda pointless. Given that ash is gunnig for number one she’s fated to lose even if she did appear again. That said, i’m guessing none of the unova trainer are gonna appear as PWC opponents from this point on. Kinda sucks away any possible tension when ash already beat the region’s strongest trainer.
 
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