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Dragon Battle! Ash VS Iris!! (1154)

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Looking clearly at this it isn’t that surprising. SM was sowing the seeds of “off screen” training and how it was some miracle that allowed you to keep up with Pokémon that in any other case they wouldn’t otherwise be able to. I know the Lana fans are going to come out but she was the biggest whistle blower for this. It never made any sense how Primarina was that strong when she battled basically no more than the other girls.
I think the problem what that SM had much less battles in comparison with previous series, but the training was still here in on-screenland, but more as a secondary thing and not as the main plot of the episode. An example of this is the Palossand episode, where Litten mastered Fire Fang.
 

Panky..

Discord: Panky..#9281
"Dragon Dance"
Yes, I know it doesn't affect Sp. Attack in the games, but I don't recall if the anime has made a distinction between Attack/Defense and Sp. Attack/Sp. Defense related stat boosts, and consistently followed it.

e260976b2c7756eac1ded9a7fde77c25.png
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
You kind of missed the point of what I was saying. I’m saying Elite 4 members are actually allowed to be taken out by regular series protagonist/characters versus them being completely impervious to attacks pre-XY. Even Daigo and Zumi shook off Alan’s attacks completely without flinching versus Pachira’s shocking loss (first E4 ‘mon fainted in history) with no real to on from her or sign of anger.

We’ve just reached a point where these characters are going to be portrayed as defeatable and not there simply to teach lessons like their roles from OS - BW. This isn’t about power levels/scaling. There is no “in universe” reason for it other than have having 22-minutes to show that. You could make an argument for how long Kairyu survived so many super effective hits but I don’t care to do that because I know the character was written to succeed.

Just like how Gengar destroyed Raichu but failed miserably against a Fighting-type because one episode had it use Psychic directly on the Pokémon and one on an obstacle like a rock as a weapon. Satoshi failed against Saito and that would have been the case with any Pokémon he used. Why not use the Kairyu with SE Hurricane or his Ghost-type completely immune with SE Psychic in that case (not even in the rematch; he goes from completely useless Kamonegi with only Dark-type moves to Pikachu but not logical Gengar). That’s what I mean when I say the show is writing for a story and narrative enjoyment without being hung up on the surrounding things like tight in-universe rules or consistency.
I get your point but here's the thing. The show has always been respectful with regard to Elite four members/ Regional Champions strength. Ash has never had an official battle against a Regional Champion. Here he has a battle with the strongest trainer in Unova and he casually uses a fairly new Pokemon and another one which hasn't even battled and beats her? This is just poor writing. I'm not saying Ash shouldn't be able to fight Elite four/ Regional Champions. He definitely should fight them and even defeat them. But these battles should be taken more seriously. Have Ash use his reserves. Make it memorable.

I mean, defeating a regional champion is such an amazing feat but this was simply trivialized due to the way the battle was written. Taking this into consideration, I would argue this is simply poor writing and it doesn't bring any form of narrative enjoyment. If Iris was a gym leader, this would've been far more enjoyable. If they wanted to make her a champion, a two episode battle with Ash using his reserves and having a fully heated difficult 4v4 or 3v3 or even 6v6 battle would've been really amazing and made Ash's victory against a regional champion very impressive.



This is just you making up arbitrary rules for what should and should not happen. The anime is more flexible than that. Cynthia saw those strategies coming and knew those mons. How can a Pokémon you never knew about before be predictable? Ash is also a regional champion if you have forgotten who has always showed tremendous skill in unorthodox strategies, makes sense his strategy can take down Iris's. It makes total sense
1) The Alola league is no different than the Orange Island League. Using that to give Ash a regional champion status is over the top. If Ash is the regional champion, then James is the 8th strongest trainer in Alola and Gladion is the third strongest trainer.

2) No it doesn't. Strategies only work when the Pokemon in terms of strength are fairly even. Go watch every single one of Ash's battle against an Elite four member. All of his experienced Pokemon always struggle and can't do anything despite whatever strategy he uses.

3) I'm not saying Ash isn't skilled enough to fight a regional champion or an elite four member. I'm saying Dragonite and Dracovish aren't experienced enough to achieve such a feat. You don't use a newly captured Pokemon against a Regional Champion. And even if you do, that Pokemon shouldn't be winning.

I really am shocked how you don't see the absurdity behind it lol. If Iris simply won the regular regional league (Didn't beat the Elite four/ Alder) etc, then yes. I can sort of understand Ash's win. But if she's the strongest trainer in Unova, this is simply ridiculous. This is even more ridiculous that Trip's snivy beating Ash's Pikachu lol.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Yeah I wasn’t saying it was the entire series. Obviously people like Kiawe made sense, Sophocles somewhat and Ash but Mallow, Lillie (love her) and Lana made no sense. I have nothing against the series itself and this isn’t a jab at it but it definitely set a tone for alternatives to getting stronger besides typical training and battling for better or worse.
Well mallow and Lillie didn't really do anything either and Lillie was shown earlier to have an analytical mind when she battles with Pikachu so her using strategies against Gladion didn't feel off screen magic. So that's why off screen stuff isn't a problem for them coz it didn't help them. Even with Lana, she got completely creamed by Guzma anyway so she isn't really a big offender. I think I had more of a problem with how stuff easily came to Lana and she mastered them in short time then off screen stuff. Unlike Ash in journeys where everything feels offscreen.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Yeah I wasn’t saying it was the entire series. Obviously people like Kiawe made sense, Sophocles somewhat and Ash but Mallow, Lillie (love her) and Lana made no sense. I have nothing against the series itself and this isn’t a jab at it but it definitely set a tone for alternatives to getting stronger and winning battles besides the typical (on screen) training and battling for better or worse.
Tbf, Mallow and Lillie were always portrayed as weak trainers even in their battles against Lana and Gladion during the League. I can see the problem with Lana.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
I get your point but here's the thing. The show has always been respectful with regard to Elite four members/ Regional Champions strength. Ash has never had an official battle against a Regional Champion. Here he has a battle with the strongest trainer in Unova and he casually uses a fairly new Pokemon and another one which hasn't even battled and beats her? This is just poor writing. I'm not saying Ash shouldn't be able to fight Elite four/ Regional Champions. He definitely should fight them and even defeat them. But these battles should be taken more seriously. Have Ash use his reserves. Make it memorable.

I mean, defeating a regional champion is such an amazing feat but this was simply trivialized due to the way the battle was written. Taking this into consideration, I would argue this is simply poor writing and it doesn't bring any form of narrative enjoyment. If Iris was a gym leader, this would've been far more enjoyable. If they wanted to make her a champion, a two episode battle with Ash using his reserves and having a fully heated difficult 4v4 or 3v3 or even 6v6 battle would've been really amazing and made Ash's victory against a regional champion very impressive.




1) The Alola league is no different than the Orange Island League. Using that to give Ash a regional champion status is over the top. If Ash is the regional champion, then James is the 8th strongest trainer in Alola and Gladion is the third strongest trainer.

2) No it doesn't. Strategies only work when the Pokemon in terms of strength are fairly even. Go watch every single one of Ash's battle against an Elite four member. All of his experienced Pokemon always struggle and can't do anything despite whatever strategy he uses.

3) I'm not saying Ash isn't skilled enough to fight a regional champion or an elite four member. I'm saying Dragonite and Dracovish aren't experienced enough to achieve such a feat. You don't use a newly captured Pokemon against a Regional Champion. And even if you do, that Pokemon shouldn't be winning.

I really am shocked how you don't see the absurdity behind it lol. If Iris simply won the regular regional league (Didn't beat the Elite four/ Alder) etc, then yes. I can sort of understand Ash's win. But if she's the strongest trainer in Unova, this is simply ridiculous. This is even more ridiculous that Trip's snivy beating Ash's Pikachu lol.
I'm not defending the writing where Iris becomes a champion and is defeated by dragonite who won due to its strength. I'm defending dracovish because it didn't win coz of its strengths but rather it's strategies and quirks. Once iris got to know it she absolutely destroyed Dracovish. Also Alola league being on the same level as Orange league is just your headcanon, in reality it's as valid as any other league for canon. So ash being the champion for Alola is a feat that matters
 
According to my strange logic, Iris became Champion because Haxorus, Dragonite and Excadrill are extremely powerful, unlike other champions, Iris has two broken pokemon.

I think she is the weakest champion, but above almost all E4 except Flint and Kalosgang because they have Megas, I dIon't think Iris can beat Lance, Steven, Cynthia or Diantha. It's hard to think that she can defeat Malva with just Dragonite, I think she would need Haxorus' help. But imo she would win in a 3 vs 3.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Yeah and it was jarring to me because technically Lillie battled more than Lana but according to SM we were suppose to see Lana as this super hard ready battle girl and she was not portrayed as such for the past two years. I see this as a mirror of what just happened here. Despite Ash barely seen on screen training Dragonite and recently capturing Dracovish we are suppose believe they are strong because the plot tells us so.
Well in the point where Lillie beated her phobia, Lana already had a Z-ring and beated the Wishiwashi trial, so i can somewhat see how Lana was stronger than Lillie, but is more of a problem of the justification about her strenght after this point, because she really doesn't have anything special until maybe the Kyogre episode.
 

Jiranaphy

Member
Ash using Dawn's counter shield to deal the final blow and Dracovish killing that ridiculously plot-armored sturdy Dragonite really were the best moments of this episode.

Glad that Volkner is teased too, if it gets confirmed we might get some Flint as well since they're besties.

Too bad they didn't show Iris' disgust reaction to Fairy Types, would've liked to be triggered and frustrated about it.

Also finally some Miyazaki score.
 
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We put champions above gym leaders but I still think Iris is slated to become Opelucid gym leader in the future when Drayden is ready to step down, and right now he isn’t. Iris might make history as the first gym leader/champion hybrid.
 

Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
You’re going to tell me all the power boost up until this series made sense? Even OS - DP as well?

•Kamonegi went from getting destroyed from Saito’s Luchabull to having a slugfest and crazy 10 minute long battle that drove Satoshi’s score up to 400-something (this was all done offscreen growth wise)

•Satoshi’s bird during AG can wear electricity as a coat of armor and effectively survive several Ice Beams and then they both go on to finish the fight in one-move after getting wrecked the whole battle. Explain me how Haruka’s Eneko can take like 12 Focus Punches but KO that Yonoir in the Contest? Explain why Haruka uses her least experienced Pokémon in the final round of the Mikuri Cup and not her super effective and fully evolved Fushingbana?

•Zenigame who never got a major onscreen battle until Orange Islands learns Hydro Pump and defeated the gym leader’s Starmie after getting hit with a Thunderbolt from this Pokémon and knocked off board but conveniently saved itself and flew back. What about Pigeon who only popped balloons taking out TR’s Pokémon at the last gym where the more experience Fushingdane was useless (with type on its side?)

•Onbat who did nothing evolved after only having one on screen battle where it mostly got smacked around and suddenly is keeping up with Thunders? What about Numera’s lighting fast evolution to Numeil with most of its training being done offscreen? Shouta can even with Satoshi’s 6-regions of experience by note taking and get all his badges before him and act as an equal at the league? He also got his stone off screen and all.

This **** just gets worse from here onward as newer series shows me they don’t care about characters randomly jumping dozens of levels all the time (Again keep in mind it took egg Pokémon a bit of time to handle a true challenge. Riolu fights Saito to a draw and one-ups a Mega Lucario that had a whole arc. of growth where it killed Pikachu a few times on its rampage ) This same Lucario was defeated after beating Kairyu to a pulp.

What's the take away here? That power levels/bulkiness are horseshit, the powers scale whenever its convenient and characters will hold the idiot ball when necessary, and new characters will ALWAYS be just as powerful as old ones so they can keep up with the story regardless of whether it makes sense or not. DP was the last saga that was on the nose with power-levels for everyone anyways (even that’s STILL debatable at several points).


You're going to blow a blood vessel trying to make sense of and expecting consistent power scaling at this point.
 
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Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
Kiawe, and that is pretty much. Sophocles was decent, he at least had something to do with the Charjabug and Vikavolt races with some development that makes his battle with Kiawe in the league a bit more credible.
Oh yeah I said that earlier my bad. The boys did decent but the girls definitely were lack luster and the only reason I’m harder on Lana is because at least the writers admitted Mallow and Lillie were weak but somehow we were suppose to believe she was on a Kiawe or Sophocles level.
 

British Soul

Top Hat Regulator
I just thought of something regarding Volkner's silhouette shown at the end of the episode, I have no idea why it didn't occur to me when watching the episode, but Volkner reappearing is for sure a promotion for BDSP.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah I said that earlier my bad. The boys did decent but the girls definitely were lack luster and the only reason I’m harder on Lana is because at least the writers admitted Mallow and Lillie were weak but somehow we were suppose to believe she was on a Kiawe or Sophocles level.
The worst part is that she had plenty of opportunities to justify her strenght, she would have catch and train the Dewpider from that episode or even Sandy. If she reached the league with Primarina, Araquanid and Sandy as Eevee or Vaporeon, her strenght would be much more credible and justified. I like Lana's personality, but the justification for her strenght was very bad
 
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