Dragon Battle! Ash VS Iris!! (1154)

[RafaSceptile]

As Blue Saturday broke up the power scaling is horrible and that’s how you get episodes like yesterday it just sucks that people will use this to paint Iris as some weak trainer especially when she essentially threw in the towel once she started cheering for Dragonite to attack her.

My problem with this is that when Ash is involved, people trends to disacrediting his victory by saying that the trainer he faced is weak, ignoring the possibility that Ash is the actual strong trainer that can fight against very strong trainers

 

[Blue Saturday]

As Blue Saturday broke up the power scaling is horrible and that’s how you get episodes like yesterday it just sucks that people will use this to paint Iris as some weak trainer especially when she essentially threw in the towel once she started cheering for Dragonite to attack her.

I personally feel like power-level wanking discussion went into overdrive post Alola League because of course you have some saying it didn’t count as a true league and arguing the tiering of Kukui/Gladio/Kapuko-keko and many celebrating it as Satoshi’s first league win. Many arguing the semantics of how strong Dande is suppose to be as the “WORLD MONARCH” and supposedly the PWC being the strongest trainers (who decided to enter...) in the WHOLE WIDE WORLD but so there was expectation of Satoshi’s training and battling to be top tier this saga and the like and the shows still mostly is about its fun episodic fillers with that kind o stuff to the side.


Hell, Gou caught a Suicune and broke a taboo for this show and people wanna compare notes on how Satoshi’s 20 legendary encounters and league win and battle frontier victory means he’s more worthy and I’m like GAWWWWDDDD y’all.

 

[Shego]

I'm so glad that Ash got promoted to the Ultra Class. Which is great. I'm glad that Iris has gotten stronger and so does her connection to her Dragonite. I didn't expect her Axew evolve into a Haxorus. That's cool. It's great to see Iris again and all. Although I was annoyed by that her old habit die hard. What puzzles me the most is that how does Iris managed to become a champion in Unova Region. I thought Virgil is the champion of the Unova League. Could it be that Iris has been collecting the eight Gym Badges and fight all the way to the finals and win the new Unova League while Ash is away with him traveling the Kalos/Alola Region? Do you think that she managed to defeat her own rival and foe, Georgia, The Dragon Buster, along the way?

 

[LucasMV]

1) The Alola league is no different than the Orange Island League. Using that to give Ash a regional champion status is over the top. If Ash is the regional champion, then James is the 8th strongest trainer in Alola and Gladion is the third strongest trainer.

2) No it doesn't. Strategies only work when the Pokemon in terms of strength are fairly even. Go watch every single one of Ash's battle against an Elite four member. All of his experienced Pokemon always struggle and can't do anything despite whatever strategy he uses.

3) I'm not saying Ash isn't skilled enough to fight a regional champion or an elite four member. I'm saying Dragonite and Dracovish aren't experienced enough to achieve such a feat. You don't use a newly captured Pokemon against a Regional Champion. And even if you do, that Pokemon shouldn't be winning.

If you're really comparing the Alola League with the Orange league, that kinda diminishes your other points, since that's clearly your head canon and not what the anime is stating.

Iris is the Unova Champion and Ash defeated her using better strategies and a pokemon completely unknown to her. It's as simple as that. Ash as a trainer is now on a level to compete against Champions.

Sure, using Pikachu or a reserve instead of Dracovish might've made more sense. But it doesn't mean this is poor writing. It just means E4 and Champions are portrayed differently now, not as unbeatable but as just really strong.

It's just a change in writing towards humanizing Champions and E4. Like how we in the game defeat them while being newbies that started just a while ago. They're strong, not unbeatable. You can like the change or not, but it doesn't mean it's poor writing.

 

[Ragnarok4]

You’re going to tell me all the power boost up until this series made sense? Even OS - DP as well?

•Kamonegi went from getting destroyed from Saito’s Luchabull to having a slugfest and crazy 10 minute long battle that drove Satoshi’s score up to 400-something (this was all done offscreen growth wise)

•Satoshi’s bird during AG can wear electricity as a coat of armor and effectively survive several Ice Beams and then they both go on to finish the fight in one-move after getting wrecked the whole battle. Explain me how Haruka’s Eneko can take like 12 Focus Punches but KO that Yonoir in the Contest? Explain why Haruka uses her least experienced Pokémon in the final round of the Mikuri Cup and not her super effective and fully evolved Fushingbana?

•Zenigame who never got a major onscreen battle until Orange Islands learns Hydro Pump and defeated the gym leader’s Starmie after getting hit with a Thunderbolt from this Pokémon and knocked off board but conveniently saved itself and flew back. What about Pigeon who only popped balloons taking out TR’s Pokémon at the last gym where the more experience Fushingdane was useless (with type on its side?)

•Onbat who did nothing evolved after only having one on screen battle where it mostly got smacked around and suddenly is keeping up with Thunders? What about Numera’s lighting fast evolution to Numeil with most of its training being done offscreen? Shouta can even with Satoshi’s 6-regions of experience by note taking and get all his badges before him and act as an equal at the league? He also got his stone off screen and all.

This **** just gets worse from here onward as newer series shows me they don’t care about characters randomly jumping dozens of levels all the time (Again keep in mind it took egg Pokémon a bit of time to handle a true challenge. Riolu fights Saito to a draw and one-ups a Mega Lucario that had a whole arc. of growth where it killed Pikachu a few times on its rampage ) This same Lucario was defeated after beating Kairyu to a pulp.

What's the take away here? That power levels/bulkiness are horseshit, the powers scale whenever its convenient and characters will hold the idiot ball when necessary, and new characters will ALWAYS be just as powerful as old ones so they can keep up with the story regardless of whether it makes sense or not. DP was the last saga that was on the nose with power-levels for everyone anyways (even that’s STILL debatable at several points).


You're going to blow a blood vessel trying to make sense of and expecting consistent power scaling at this point.

I understand your point but most of your examples are easy to reply.

1- Farfetched had no experience
2- Type advantage is not everything and since May knows that Piplup is fast, maybe she thought it was a good idea to use another pokemon that is also "elusive"
3-Sorry but Squirtle had a few battles before
4-Noivern did not defeat Zapdos LOL, Noivern
attacked him from behind
5- Bug-type pokemon evolve fast
6- Maybe because Ash never uses his reserves ???? Sawyer was a very smart boy, but if Ash had used Charizard, Infernape, Snorlax etc he would have destroyed him in the League.
7-Is it confirmed that Bea defeated Korrina with GRAPPLOCT? ...We still don't know if she has a stronger Pokemon, Machamp


The anime still respects the Gym leaders/Champions/Elite four in some way, after all, Ash beated Iris with his head more than with power.

 

[RafaSceptile]

6- Maybe because Ash never uses his reserves ???? Sawyer was a very smart boy, but if Ash had used Charizard, Infernape, Snorlax etc he would have destroyed him in the League.

Actually the reason for why Ash would have win is not because those Pokémon were stronger, but because Sawyer doesn't know about those Ash's Pokémon. Some of Sawyer's strategies were planned because he know which Pokémon Ash had available, similar to how Paul assumed that Ash will use the same team than in their battle in the Acuity Lake

 

[Sham]

The excellent thing about this that Iris has the best chance of making the most appearances out of all the companions now. No champion has made a singular appearance. Cynthia, Alder, Leon, Wallace, Lance and Steven all had multiple episodes. Especially when those BW remakes come out boy

 

[Blue Saturday]

I understand your point but most of your examples are silly and easy to reply.

1- Farfetched had no experience

Suddenly it’s super ultra class strong for the Rinto arc. that was all offscreen.

2- Type advantage is not everything and since May knows that Piplup is fast, maybe she thought it was a good idea to use another pokemon that is also "elusive"

Headcanon. They had her use her least experienced and newest mon for Hikari’s oldest instead of a more logical Water-type and several times she just let her Eevee get hit over and over.

3-Sorry but Squirtle had a few battles before

Zenigame is INFAMOUS for its 10-second jobbing to the Fire-type leader of Kanto and then having one blink and you miss it battle at the league. It’s didn’t have a major star moment until OI.

4-Noivern did not defeat Zapdos LOL, Noivern

I didn’t say defeat. I said a baby fresh out the womb getting beaten up in its first battle a few episodes before is now fully evolved and keeping up with Thunders.

5- Bug-type pokemon evolve fast

Numelgon and Onba are not Bugs and Dragon-types are stated to have lore about how they take a while to evolve. Hence their high levels to evolve in game matching that to the anime.

6- Maybe because Ash never uses his reserves ???? Sawyer was a very smart boy, but if Ash had used Charizard, Infernape, Snorlax etc he would have destroyed him in the League.

You have no good excuse for why the BF conqueror and Shinji’s former rival are equaling a complete newbie aside from “he’s a good note taker.” He has a completely fully evolve team and stone by league time and Satoshi barely beat him.

7-Is it confirmed that Bea defeated Korrina with GRAPPLOCT? ...We still don't know if she has a stronger Pokemon, Machamp

Yes: we see it’s shadow using what appears to be Close Combat to finish them both and she calls them soft/weak.

You’re just proving my point power level discussions are rabbit holes of nonsense.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

The excellent thing about this that Iris has the best chance of making the most appearances out of all the companions now. No champion has made a singular appearance. Cynthia, Alder, Leon, Wallace, Lance and Steven all had multiple episodes. Especially when those BW remakes come out boy

They might retcon her and make Alder the champion again...

 

[Sham]

They might retcon her and make Alder the champion again...

*shudders in Steven* the good part is Steven was never called the Champion in AG but Wallace was called the champion in the anime so he simply could of just replaced him.

 

[WaterShuriken]

I really enjoyed this episode. First of all let's start with seeing Ash's team at the start. Sirfetch'd is such a cool addition to his team that Journeys proved me wrong when I wanted Ash to get Sobble instead.

When the boys get to Unova, I appreciate the fact that Goh's captures were super quick and the fact that they left out Pansage for quite the obvious reason. I'm sure Cilan will appear again.

I was not happy at the decision to make Iris the Unova Champion just for the sake of the game role she has. The explanation was also really glossed over which upset me.

However, I do like how they handled her character here. She is still the same girl as before and can still get under Ash's skin like before. Ash and Iris behaved like siblings here, which was adorable.

The Dragonite duel was a great way to showcase the differences in personalities between the two of them. While Iris' Dragonite was definitely going to win if Ash didn't recall his, I noticed that only one Dragonite bothered to look at its trainer. After all this time, it doesn't seem like Iris and Dragonite have bonded quite closely yet. Drayden stated that under her leadership his style of battling was been refined which is true, but failed to mention a personal connection.

Dracovish is slowly starting to win me over despite the fact that it's an abomination and I hate all 4 Galar Fossils. Its wackyness was enough to throw Dragonite off rhythm. For the people mentioning that he OHKO'd Dragonite, that's wrong. Dragonite collided with a Dragon Claw and took damage from Hurricane prior to this, then it got hit with a Fiscous Rend and Ice Fang combination. Sure, Dragonite had tanked Ice-type moves in the past but Dracovish does have high physical prowess. Iris learned and took it down from afar.

Iris' Axew grew up so much that Iris was forced to finally use a Poké Ball for it lmao. I wish marketing would have allowed Axew to at least become a Fraxure in BW.

The battle against Dragonite was fun. Haxorus' Dragon Pulse being a call back to Dragon Sneeze was a neat addition to it's arsenal. Ash and Dragonite would have won with or without Iris' talk with Dragonite since it was Ash's Counter Shield tactic that combined with Dragon Pulse to create Draco Meteor. The difference that Iris made was the fact that Dragonite calmed down and accepted to have fun along with Ash. The moves would have been the same, Dragonite was just in a better mood.

In my opinion, Iris didn't throw the match, she showcased how far her Dragon powers have come but just got outplayed by Ash. This actually happened twice in the match. Iris would have won if Ash didn't battle as smartly as he did. In a pure power match, Iris would have taken it.

If anything this shows how adaptable Ash is in battle. He knows a pure power showdown would have been bad for him, so first he switches out Dragonite and has Dracovish throw Dragonite for a loop. Then at the end uses what he learned in Sinnoh and uses a Hurricane Counter Shield to improvise a new move.

We'll definitely see a rematch in the future. They made a promise. Now from the silhouettes, we know Bea and Volkner are guaranteed. The other three might be Lt. Surge, Tyson, and Sabrina?

 

[Ragnarok4]

Ash demonstrated all his experience, And iris was the victim this time

I think we all saw that in terms of "power" Angrynite was destroying Happynite, we all saw that Iris's Big Mistake was approaching that Dracovish Mouth. I mean, even if a Mega Mewtwo gets close to the claws of a Crawdaunt with Guillotine, no matter how extremely powerful he is, Mewtwo will lose.

Iris understood this, and attacked Dracovish from afar, and as expected, Mr Fish was defeated in an instant. What happened after? Haxorus was dominating a Happynite that had been destroyed by Angrynite, But then, something happened, that uncontrollable factor, that creative thinking of Ash.

Happynite use everything to him advantage, the weather, Hurricane, Dragon Pulse ... and magic happened, Dragonite learned new attack, the devastating Draco Meteor, Iris couldn't dodge because this attack took her by surprise.

Iris's mistakes?

-Only depend on physical strength
-Not having the Movement "Protection' for these types of situations

In conclusion, she lacked experience, That same experience that Ash has after hundreds of battles, that's why, even if a trainer has a Legendary Pokemon, if he bumps into someone who is close to being a POKEMON Master, ...Will pay dearly

it does not matter if the latter uses a Caterpie, the experience is not bought.

Power levels were respected until the end in this battle.

 

[Evstike]

it just sucks that people will use this to paint Iris as some weak trainer especially when she essentially threw in the towel once she started cheering for Dragonite to attack her.

...but people aren't saying that? From what I've seen, people don't like how the plot made her seem weaker by essentially giving up and helping Dragonite instead of showing her strength and putting up a good fight. They want Iris to be stronger.

If Iris was a gym leader, or if this wasn't a ranked battle with Hyper Class on the line, there would be much less problems. Why make her a champion only to look weaker than an Elite Four member because the plot demanded it? Why waste high ranked battles for development? It removes the stakes and makes the victim fodder for Ash's rank.

 

[Sham]

I wish they would of further explained how Iris and Drayden reconcile since she seemed quite nervous around him in BW. Plus why was Drayden raising another Axew?

The worst part is that she had plenty of opportunities to justify her strenght, she would have catch and train the Dewpider from that episode or even Sandy. If she reached the league with Primarina, Araquanid and Sandy as Eevee or Vaporeon, her strenght would be much more credible and justified. I like Lana's personality, but the justification for her strenght was very bad

Yeah and the worse part is that Sandy got shafted bad. I wish she would of used him once in the league.

 

[BobbbidyBob]

Anybody else got taken aback by the “pocket monsters” with an Englishman accent? Anybody knows what I’m talking about?XD

 

[RafaSceptile]

Why make her a champion only to look weaker than an Elite Four member because the plot demanded it?

Because she looks "weaker" than an E4 because the opponent that she faced was a strong trainer and not because she was weak. Prioritizing Dragonite's confidence about enjoying the battle shows about how much she grew not only as a strong trainer, but also as a person who wants to understand and help Dragon Pokémon as part of her Dragon Master dream.

 

[Ragnarok4]

Suddenly it’s super ultra class strong for the Rinto arc. that was all offscreen.
Headcanon. They had her use her least experienced and newest mon for Hikari’s oldest instead of a more logical Water-type and several times she just let her Eevee get hit over and over.
Zenigame is INFAMOUS for its 10-second jobbing to the Fire-type leader of Kanto and then having one blink and you miss it battle at the league. It’s didn’t have a major star moment until OI.


I didn’t say defeat. I said a baby fresh out the womb getting beaten up in its first battle a few episodes before is now fully evolved and keeping up with Thunders.


Numelgon and Onba are not Bugs and Dragon-types are stated to have lore about how they take a while to evolve. Hence their high levels to evolve in game matching that to the anime.

You have no good excuse for why the BF conqueror and Shinji’s former rival are equaling a complete newbie aside from “he’s a good note taker.” He has a completely fully evolve team and stone by league time and Satoshi barely beat him.

Yes: we see it’s shadow using what appears to be Close Combat to finish them both and she calls them soft/weak.

You’re just proving my point power level discussions are rabbit holes of nonsense.

1- Off-screenland doesn't downplay power levels
2-, there are literally thousands of reasons why she didn't use venasaur, maybe glaceon was stronger, maybe venasaur was tired, maybe she just forget the type advantage
3- OFF-SCREENLAND
4-It was only a few seconds, it wasn't even a full battle, Also Zapdos has never been strong in the anime
5-To evolve your pokemon Do you have to train him? ..We have seen many times that they evolve when their friends are in danger (Various examples, Pineco, Monferno, Piloswine) When they have a strong feeling, when they just feel like it ... evolution is complicated. I don't see how this affects power levels.
6- He won Battle Frontier and defeated Shinji with his old Pokemon already trained, you are only being unfair to Sawyer, who is possibly a prodigy, your excuses have no basis
7-
You lie, there is no proof, there is no shadow anywhere


In conclusion, You didn't say anything to prove your first claim

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Plus why was Drayden raising another Axew?

That was his grand kid.

 

[ibelinssj]

Like as far as I can recall, usually nobody bats an eye to destructions in gyms or stadiums, so I found this a very funny moment.

Because both battlers are not gym owner, they borrow it from Drayden.

 

[Ragnarok4]

Because she looks "weaker" than an E4 because the opponent that she faced was a strong trainer and not because she was weak. Prioritizing Dragonite's confidence about enjoying the battle shows about how much she grew not only as a strong trainer, but also as a person who wants to understand and help Dragon Pokémon as part of her Dragon Master dream.

Exactly, Ash's experience and creative thinking, solved this

Because if we compare the "strength" iris won by a lot