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Dragon Battle! Ash VS Iris!! (1154)

S

srebak

Beginning Trainer
I guess that when all is said and done, ‘development’ for Iris and Dragonite aside, it’s just so frustrating that the implications of this episode’s battle not only implied that Ash’s Dragonite would have been defeated by Iris’ (which already does not sit right with me all on its own, since it already seemed like Ash’s Dragonite was at least strong enough to give Iris’ a difficult time), but also that Ash would have lost the match as a whole had Iris not interfered. How does that make Ash look after all this time. He should not be this easy to overwhelm, even with newer Pokémon, since he has a knack for training his Pokémon to become very strong rather quickly. I would have enjoyed a battle between Dragon-type Pokémon and I would’ve enjoyed watching a battle between Ash’s and Iris’ Dragonites, and this is what I wind up getting?
 
RafaSceptile

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
srebak said:
I guess that when all is said and done, ‘development’ for Iris and Dragonite aside, it’s just so frustrating that the implications of this episode’s battle not only implied that Ash’s Dragonite would have been defeated by Iris’ (which already does not sit right with me all on its own, since it already seemed like Ash’s Dragonite was at least strong enough to give Iris’ a difficult time), but also that Ash would have lost the match as a whole had Iris not interfered. How does that make Ash look after all this time. He should not be this easy to overwhelm, even with newer Pokémon, since he has a knack for training his Pokémon to become very strong rather quickly. I would have enjoyed a battle between Dragon-type Pokémon and I would’ve enjoyed watching a battle between Ash’s and Iris’ Dragonites, and this is what I wind up getting?
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Iris interfered because she prioritized her growth as a Dragon Master instead of trying to become the strongest trainer, and at the same time, she still tried to win, she only lost because she could not predict Ash's strategy.
 
SerGoldenhandtheJust

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Sham said:
But he was able to take down a champion Pokémon and that’s were the BS comes from. I’m not gonna get into the “element of surprise” thing and “Iris not knowing what Dracovish was” because other users have explained why that doesn’t hold up pages prior but Dracovish being able to take out a champion’s Pokémon with little to no training is called.... say it with me!

Gotcha
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I still think the semantics of how he won should matter, coz it seemed to me the episode actually emphasised just because it defeated dragonite doesn't mean it's champion tier considering the circumstances, esp when Iris knew about it she instantly managed to KO it. Ig agree to disagree on dracovish, though I admit dragonite being shown to be strong after most of it being offscreen training is weird
srebak said:
1. And again it feels somewhat wrong to me that someone with her condescending and annoying attitude has that type of ability while someone like Ash does not

2. I repeat; Ash should not have needed that sort of thing to win. He has always had a good relationship with his Pokémon in some shape or form and Dragonite is a Pokémon that he has had no real problems with before, they should have already had a close enough bond to make Iris’ intervention unnecessary.

3. Are you saying that Ash isn’t worthy of being a Champion?


And Ash shouldn’t have needed that, he has virtually always been all about having fun with his Pokémon during a battle
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Why does Ash matter? Like it's hard to take these criticisms seriously when it's just relating them to Ash for no reason
Ash literally has aura related powers
Ash is a champion too and defeated iris
Ash is being set up to defeat Leon and become world's strongest trainer
Ash gets plenty of stuff. Iris deserves it too

Honestly just because this episode did have some powerscaling issue with Dragonite's strength mostly being offscreen doesn't mean it isn't a "good" episode. But then again we have people saying it isn't good because it didn't go into the complete semantics of how iris became champion in earlier pages, so..... *Shrugs*
 
S

srebak

Beginning Trainer
RafaSceptile said:
Iris interfered because she prioritized her growth as a Dragon Master instead of trying to become the strongest trainer, and at the same time, she still tried to win, she only lost because she could not predict Ash's strategy.
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So what, are you saying that even if Iris hadn’t intervened Ash could have still won? Because a great deal of the fans and the episode itself implied that it was only because of Iris’ little chat with Dragonite that Ash gained a victory and that feels like a problem

SerGoldenhandtheJust said:
I still think the semantics of how he won should matter, coz it seemed to me the episode actually emphasised just because it defeated dragonite doesn't mean it's champion tier considering the circumstances, esp when Iris knew about it she instantly managed to KO it. Ig agree to disagree on dracovish, though I admit dragonite being shown to be strong after most of it being offscreen training is weird

Why does Ash matter? Like it's hard to take these criticisms seriously when it's just relating them to Ash for no reason
Ash literally has aura related powers
Ash is a champion too and defeated iris
Ash is being set up to defeat Leon and become world's strongest trainer
Ash gets plenty of stuff. Iris deserves it too

Honestly just because this episode did have some powerscaling issue with Dragonite's strength mostly being offscreen doesn't mean it isn't a "good" episode. But then again we have people saying it isn't good because it didn't go into the complete semantics of how iris became champion in earlier pages, so..... *Shrugs*
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But one character getting something should not always come at the detriment of another
 
SerGoldenhandtheJust

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
srebak said:
So what, are you saying that even if Iris hadn’t intervened Ash could have still won? Because a great deal of the fans and the episode itself implied that it was only because of Iris’ little chat with Dragonite that Ash gained a victory and that feels like a problem


But one character getting something should not always come at the detriment of another
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How is it at Ash's detriment? Esp when he won. Stop believing the claims Iris handed over the victory. Iris just had a convo with dragonite. Ash won because of his skills and outsmarting Iris. The episode doesn't imply ash would have lost otherwise, just what some people are using to claim iris is a better trainer than Ash when the narrative clearly claims the opposite. It's like how people claimed Alain won against Ash due to cheating by absorbing mega power or whatnot
 
game3524

game3524

Well-Known Member
Sham said:
When will we be free of the “what about muh Ash” rants. How long? Ash’s companions are their own people and not an extension of him therefor able to have their own abilities and accomplishments divorced from him. It doesn’t make sense for Ash to be able to communicate with Dragons. You want him to have the ability just because Iris does? Also what does her attitude have to do with this? Plenty of “condescending” (she’s not but okay) have gifts and talents in the real world. Being a good person isn’t a qualification for having a talent. Plenty of “mean” people are really good at things.
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This. It is tiresome how some fans make everything about Ash. Yeah, Ash can't communicate with dragons as well as Iris, so what? Let Iris have her moment for once.
 
Power Up

Power Up

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SerGoldenhandtheJust said:
But then again we have people saying it isn't good because it didn't go into the complete semantics of how iris became champion in earlier pages, so..... *Shrugs*
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There wasn't even any semantics. There was genuinely nothing, so not so sure about the whole " complete " thing.
 
mehmeh1

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Jers745 said:
The same happens with steven in AG and i dont see people complaining
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I guess it's more acceptable there since we didn't know much about Steven, so a lot about his strength was left for the imagination. Meanwhile for Iris it feels odd to have an entire series with her, then leave her off before she became a gym leader, and suddenly she's a champion
 
Power Up

Power Up

...
Jers745 said:
The same happens with steven in AG and i dont see people complaining
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I mean sure, if people want to complain about Steven not getting a backstory for how he became Champion, they're free to as they definitely have a point. I'm just not going to pretend there's an equivalency and that much narratively hung on Steven getting an explanation in how he rose to the position.
 
Morax

Morax

King of heroes
FlygontheRavager said:
How did Ash go from the most hated character to the one people are totally obsessed about? I don’t get it.
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They hated him because he was a loser. They love him because he won a league.

Unironically i prefer the former. Ash's ability to keep moving forward is one of his most endearing qualities. Losers and tragic characters make for better storytelling.
 
RafaSceptile

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Morax said:
They hated him because he was a loser. They love him because he won a league.

Unironically i prefer the former. Ash's ability to keep moving forward is one of his most endearing qualities. Losers and tragic characters make for better storytelling.
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He was the loser during 22 real world years, it's fine is for once he won. If he was once of those MC that wins almost everything, then that would be a problem.
 
AuraChannelerChris

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
Morax said:
They hated him because he was a loser. They love him because he won a league.

Unironically i prefer the former. Ash's ability to keep moving forward is one of his most endearing qualities. Losers and tragic characters make for better storytelling.
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There is a point when our protagonist shouldn't be such a loser.

...It shouldn't be after literally 1000 episodes in a region's first league ever.
 
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