Dream World Ability Discussion

[Pathfinder]

When 5th gen first was released I thought we would have a huge number of Ubers, or have a metagame full of offense. But nothing except Shanderaa seems like it could be all that broken.

Getting a Fire / Fighting starter for the THIRD TIME in a row kind of bugs me. Come on, hes a pig. Fire / GROUND.

Same here^

I was hoping the pig would be fire/ground too or anything more original than another fire / fighting type again , but oh well . The pig isn't actually half bad ingame at least.

I'm glad Blaziken is getting a boost with dream world too , it was always my favorite starter besides charizard x).

 

[Ethan]

I'm more interested in bulky Multi-Scale dragonite as a lead. It's a completely superior ability to inner focus and his ability guarantees that he will at the least get one dragon dance in. I think his reliability in that regard will help seperate him from salamence and garchomp returning to the forefront.

 

[d0nut]

I'm more interested in bulky Multi-Scale dragonite as a lead. It's a completely superior ability to inner focus and his ability guarantees that he will at the least get one dragon dance in. I think his reliability in that regard will help seperate him from salamence and garchomp returning to the forefront.

The only problem I see here is that if leads remain in the same format they do in 4th gen then they will set up Stealth Rock while you DD then nail you with Explosion the following turn since they will likely have Focus Sash. Multi-Scale may or may not be enough to help Dnite survive this but since we don't know how significant the boost to defense is we can only speculate. Dragon Dance leads were never very effective, so as a lead Dragonite will probably stick with the same Mixed set he used last gen, if not he will be outclassed by the new wave of Dragons since they cover pretty much every other niche out there (plus supportive Dragons aren't exactly in demand.)

 

[Viva la Vida]

OK. Then we're seeing eye to eye here. I was kinda messin around with ya, but yeah I've grown fond of ol' Ape too. I don't want to see him drop to BL or UU, but Nasty Plot sweeping may have to be his new niche. Other than that, he can make a more immediate revenge killer than Blaze, at least for that first turn.

I love em both, but I just want to see Blaze shine again.

.

Agreed 100%. But just a question, do you think Blaziken with Swords Dance could go Uber? I'll explain later, tight on time. Just marinate on it.

 

[jellsprout]

No. Dragonite, Starmie, Gyarados, Moler, ScarfChomp, Tentacruel and many more Pokémon are all reliable counters. To be honest, I don't think there is any OU bulky Water that can't check Blaziken. You even have to watch out for Blissey. If it uses Protect while you High Jump Kick, it is goodbye for Blaziken.

 

[D-World]

I've always seen Tinted Lens as one of the best abilities, 4x resistance becomes 2x, and 2x becomes neutral, what else can you ask for? and with base stats like Shinpora's, I'm thinking it's going to be successful, even though Yanmega is more powerful, Shinpora has the Advantage in speed and more powerful STABs.

 

[Blue Harvest]

No. Dragonite, Starmie, Gyarados, Moler, ScarfChomp, Tentacruel and many more Pokémon are all reliable counters. To be honest, I don't think there is any OU bulky Water that can't check Blaziken. You even have to watch out for Blissey. If it uses Protect while you High Jump Kick, it is goodbye for Blaziken.

All of those pokemon are OHKOed by Blaziken's High Jump Kick after rocks. Scarfchomp / Starmie are beat by Protect or Sub Blaziken. Tentacruel survives with around 3% after Stealth Rocks, so good luck beating it with that. Blaziken even survives a Surf lol.

I don't think its uber though. It will have so much trouble setting up, and several things do still wall it.

 

[Viva la Vida]

All of those pokemon are OHKOed by Blaziken's High Jump Kick after rocks. Scarfchomp / Starmie are beat by Protect or Sub Blaziken. Tentacruel survives with around 3% after Stealth Rocks, so good luck beating it with that. Blaziken even survives a Surf lol.

I don't think its uber though. It will have so much trouble setting up, and several things do still wall it.

See thyat's what I thought, though lets remember that rocks won't be as common next gen thank to the great decision to make Stealth Rock a Lvl Up move.....

 

[D-World]

I do hope Blaziken makes a titanic comeback. It's the most awesome looking of the three fire/fighting starters (Infernape was forgiveable but as for Emboar, Nintendo let us down on that one).

Also, Perversity is the best Ability name since history. The effect isn't bad, and i can just see Jaroda throwing Leaf Storm after Leaf Storm

 

[jesusfreak94]

I missed some of the Blaziken conversation, but now I got this.

Continuing on from what Blue Harvest said, if Blaziken is running Protect or Substitute, then it won't even need Speed EVs, as it will be able to easily get in an extra turn of Substitute. Therefore you can throw the rest of its EVs into HP, allowing to (as BH also said) survive attacks like Surf much more easily. That being said, it will lose some coverage by running one of those moves. If it doesn't run one then it will likely run either Stone Edge or Thunderpunch. Iirc, Stone Edge will have a chance to OHKO Tentacruel, and most Waters can say goodbye when they take a Thunderpunch to the face.

Blaziken may be a difficult thing to counter, but it's not Uber. Entry hazards will still be useful, as there are only 2 new spinners. Blaziken will be affected by all EHs, SStorm, Hail, and other passive damage. A strong revenge killer will be able to take it out. Heck, Azumarill actually makes a decent counter to Blaziken.

Now, if there's anyone going to Ubers, it'll be Shanderaa, Politoad, and Ninetails. If I'm remembering right, Smogon has tried putting Drought and Drizzle on the Shoddy server before on certain Pokemon, just to see what would happen. Weather teams absolutely dominated the metagame. Now yes, weather teams can be countered by certain Pokemon strategies and combinations, but the reason that Drizzle/Drought, Salamence, Garchomp, and a few other Pokemon were banned weren't because they were uncounterable, but because the metagame was so centered around them. As d0nut said one time, you could put Drizzle on a level 1 Magikarp that wouldn't be able to level up or change to Gyarados and it would still be Uber. It just makes Rain teams too dominating.

 

[Witch of 'Cos]

Scarf Ditto will take SD Blaziken.

Simple.

 

[jesusfreak94]

Here's the old abilities that have been upgraded from 4th Gen. Just thought I'd add them to the discussion.

Stench: Increases the chance of physical contact moves flinching the opponent
Sturdy: A Pokemon with full HP can not be OHKOed (Focus Sash)
Lightningrod: Draws in and negates Electric moves, and raises SpA one level
Storm Drain: Draws in and negates Water moves, and raises SpA one level
Keen Eye: Decreases chance of encountering lower level Pokemon (useless)
Plus/Minus: Increases SpA if ally has Plus or Minus

Sturdy, I think, will be the one of the more useful. Without the need for a Focus Sash, Sturdy leads can run other items. And now Skarmory has a decent ability.

 

[Viva la Vida]

Forretress is going to wreck with Sturdy.

 

[YOOMTAH]

^ Can you explain?

 

[D-World]

Obviously, Seaking has immediately changed from F YOU seaking to F YOU Electric Moves!!!

 

[jellsprout]

All of those pokemon are OHKOed by Blaziken's High Jump Kick after rocks. Scarfchomp / Starmie are beat by Protect or Sub Blaziken. Tentacruel survives with around 3% after Stealth Rocks, so good luck beating it with that. Blaziken even survives a Surf lol.

Assuming 252+ Blaziken holding LO:
+2 High Jump Kick vs 252/0 Dragonite: 77.2% - 90.9%
+2 High Jump Kick vs 252/252 Dragonite: 60.4% - 71.2%
Against a more tradition Dragonite with only HP EVs, Blaziken does indeed OHKO, but only with SR.
However, a physically Defensive Dragonite survives High Jump Kick 100% of the time, even with SR.

Also, that same Dragonite (4 Attack EVs, Adamant, CB) vs that same Blaziken:
Aqua Jet vs 4/0 Blaziken: 54.3% - 64.2%
A solid 2HKO. Looks like a counter to me.

+1 High Jump Kick vs 156/96 Gyarados (standard bulky DDGyara): 62.7% - 73.8%
Again not a OHKO, not even with SR.

It should also be noted that we don't know the effect of SR on the metagame yet. There are some very promising anti-leads that stop Stealth Rock 100% of the time, and with Rotom-A no longer being a Ghost type, there are few Ghosts able to switch into Starmie. I don't think any of the Ghosts dare to switch into Moler either.

I will do other calculations later. But I would like to know what moveset you suggest. Flare Blitz/High Jump Kick/Swords Dance/Protect, Flare Blitz/High Jump Kick/Swords Dance/Stone Edge or something else?

 

[jesusfreak94]

^I'd still be really careful about Stone Edge. It threatens Dragonite and Gyarados a lot. I think the new standard will be HJK/FBlitz/SE/SD. Protect/Sub have been mentioned a lot, and I think that they will definitely be viable on a set, but I think that people will carry SE for Nite, Gyara, Shanderaa, etc. Just some thoughts.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Jellsprout the most common form of Dragonite / Gyarados in 4th gen didn't run and HP EVs. Even if they do in 5th gen just run Stone Edge to eliminate the problem instantly.

Also Blaziken does not need max speed. It can run near max HP (or defense) if it carries Protect or Substitute, allowing Blaziken to survive two LO Dragonite Aqua Jets.

 

[jellsprout]

Jellsprout the most common form of Dragonite / Gyarados in 4th gen didn't run and HP EVs. Even if they do in 5th gen just run Stone Edge to eliminate the problem instantly.

Also Blaziken does not need max speed. It can run near max HP (or defense) if it carries Protect or Substitute, allowing Blaziken to survive two LO Dragonite Aqua Jets.

So your Blaziken runs Swords Dance/Flare Blitz/High Jump Kick/Stone Edge/Protect/Substitute? Or does it also run Thunderpunch, Fire Blast, Overheat, HP Grass and Vacuum Wave?
If you run Stone Edge, you'll get countered by Scarfers. If you run Protect or Sub, you'll get beaten by Dragonite and Gyarados. Even if you do have the correct moveset, you have to decide between attacking and setting up. If you set up, you get beaten by Pokémon like Erufuun. If you attack, you get beaten by those I mentioned earlier.
This is all assuming you even have the time to switch in and set up. 80/70/70 Defenses aren't exactly high. Nor is that base 80 Speed before the Speed Boost.

Blaziken can't afford to run minimal Speed. A +1 Blaziken with 0 Speed EVs gets outsped even by the neutral Base 100s.
Blaziken will need at least 204 Speed EVs to outrun a Modest Scarfed Starmie at +2, or only 172 if you only wish to outspeed Modest Scarfed Latias. However if you want to outspeed Timid Starmie and Latias, you will even need to run a Speed boosting nature.
There is also Deoxys-S to consider. You will need a Speed boosting nature just to outspeed minimal Speed Deoxys-S at +1.

And finally, what does it matter what the most common Dragonite and Gyarados were last gen? The only moves standard R/B/Y Chansey and standard G/S/C Blissey shared was Softboiled. If max/max Defense Dragonite works well in this metagame, there is no reason not to use it.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Swords Dance / High Jump Kick / Flare Blitz / Protect.

I don't know the specific Speed tiers for this gen to make an EV spread besides the obvious "Adamant with max attack".

If Dragonite / Gyarados run more bulk for Blaziken you use your head and either run Stone Edge or you get them to switch into Stealth Rock once before starting your sweep, as a 75% Gyarados / Dragonite switching in can not comfortably take your hits without losing most of its offensive power.