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EffortfuLillie! A Determined Runaway Act! (994)

AshxSatoshi

Ice Aurelia
If the AF arc continues after the rescue episode, I could see Lusamine becoming crazy, though maybe less from being evil all along but more the toxins intensifying what were controlled flaws beforehand to make her completely unrestrained. She goes from a bit overbearing and selfish but otherwise genuinely loving her kids to an abusive control freak, and her obsession with Ultra Beasts, which shown a moment of weakness last episode but she managed to overcome, utterly takes over her train of thought.

I honestly also could see them not saving her this time, IF they plan on dragging this out. I'm fine with the idea you've said as well. Maybe after Ash returns to Poni (to battle Hapu) is when they finally save her, assuming they battle her Totem Style Pokémon in the next few episodes, does anyone have a team that can take her out? I wonder how they'll handle her treatment? Maybe invite Bill to Alola?


Why did Serena have to change her style dramatically? She was OK in her old design.

She lost her first Showcase.
 

Pokemon Fan

Knuckle Trainer
Rockruff managed to beat Olivia's ace, and it's a resonable assumption that Kahuna's ace>Totems. Dusk Lycanroc is it's evolved form, and Silvally KO'd it with Crush Claw as Type:Null. So difficult to believe how it makes sense, unless Totem Kommo-o is leagues stronger than the other 3 Totems, which probably doesn't make sense.
In the games totem Kommo-o is basically the "ultimate" Totem, given its a totem version of the region's pseudo-legendary and the last one you fight. Having it be substantially stronger than the other totems actually makes some sense.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Nihilego was the cause of Lillie fears, she made a mistake and thought Silvally was attacking her when that wasn't the case. The whole reason she was abusive towards her children in the games was because she was infected with toxins. Yes it was implied she was mean before, but she really started being evil once they ran away, so I don't know what you're getting at. Also you do know they slightly alter every evil teams plot from the anime and never completely follow the games correct? You can keep saying "nobody wants this" but that's your opinion. I for one would he interested in them making her secretly evil this whole time. It sounds like you don't want to be wrong about her being evil, so you're claiming a "plot twist" would be bad writing. Either way I don't care how it goes but don't claim she isn't evil solely how she treats her children. She could be evil or she couldn't.

For one, I said the forced nature is something nobody wants. But yes, to reveal that she's evil all along when the only "clues" are your interpretation of a smile and nothing we can concretely hold on to, that's a twist for the sake of being a twist and not very good writing-wise. And while I personally believe that Lusamine suddenly being infected with toxins to be rather lazy if they want her to be the villain, it's better than her having been evil all along and never even hinting it to us. And of course there are deviations from the games, but nothing so drastic that they barely resemble the characters they were (unless they're based off the PC, of course), which seems to be the route taken at least when it comes to Lillie, Gladion and Lusamine.

And since Lusamine is revealed to dress her children up like dolls and be emotionally abusive, no matter how they tried to write it off, in USUM as well, void of the toxins, the argument that it's just because of Nebby sort of falls flat.
 

AshxSatoshi

Ice Aurelia
For one, I said the forced nature is something nobody wants. But yes, to reveal that she's evil all along when the only "clues" are your interpretation of a smile and nothing we can concretely hold on to, that's a twist for the sake of being a twist and not very good writing-wise. And while I personally believe that Lusamine suddenly being infected with toxins to be rather lazy if they want her to be the villain, it's better than her having been evil all along and never even hinting it to us. And of course there are deviations from the games, but nothing so drastic that they barely resemble the characters they were (unless they're based off the PC, of course), which seems to be the route taken at least when it comes to Lillie, Gladion and Lusamine.

And since Lusamine is revealed to dress her children up like dolls and be emotionally abusive, no matter how they tried to write it off, in USUM as well, void of the toxins, the argument that it's just because of Nebby sort of falls flat.
Take in USUM is an alternative story and without spoiling much just proves she's evil no matter what (toxins or not). So assuming the anime will follow the games, they have no choice but to go that route because she was intended to be evil in both universes just for different reasons. The way the anime is doing it, isn't wrong either but a plot twist wouldn't be "bad writing". You know what's lazy writing? Having Faba being evil for the sole purpose he's a "mad scientist", following the games plot isn't. I'm glad he's made a clarification on why he's doing what he's doing. Although I always had a feeling he was doing it for Lusamine, it's great the anime touched on it. Maybe others were okay with Faba doing villouness things for no reasons but I wasn't. As Satomie Night has been explaining she's always had condescending traits (especially shown in the beginning episodes) they just have been nerfeered compared to the games. She's always been a caring mother but after being infected with toxins she became evil. We've got no indications she's a good person at heart (anime wise) and at this point is just caring mother with an over busy schedule. It's not a stretch for her to still have been "evil" (or crazy I guess) and still love her children. Especially since (and this has been said an ample amount of times) they haven't done anything to anger her like in the games. Wether she's already been mad or becomes mad, I'm good with both, as long as they don't scrap her story for Faba, that's bad writing.
 
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Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Take in USUM is an alternative story and without spoiling much just proves she's evil no matter what (toxins or not). So assuming the anime will follow the games, they have no choice but to go that route because she was intended to be evil in both universes just for different reasons. The way the anime is doing it, isn't wrong either but a plot twist wouldn't be "bad writing". You know what's lazy writing? Having Faba being evil for the sole purpose he's a "mad scientist", following the games plot isn't. I'm glad he's made a clarification on why he's doing what he's doing. Although I always had a feeling he was doing it for Lusamine, it's great the anime touched on it. Maybe others were okay with Faba doing villouness things for no reasons but I wasn't. As Satomie Night has been explaining she's always had condescending traits (especially shown in the beginning episodes) they just have been nerfeered compared to the games. She's always been a caring mother but after being infected with toxins she became evil. We've got no indications she's a good person at heart (anime wise) and at this point is just caring mother with an over busy schedule. It's not a stretch for her to still have been "evil" (or crazy I guess) and still love her children. Especially since (and this has been said an ample amount of times) they haven't done anything to anger her like in the games. Wether she's already been mad or becomes mad, I'm good with both, as long as they don't scrap her story for Faba, that's bad writing.

But she's not evil in USUM. She is still abusive, though. Here, she's not abusive nor evil. And yes, bringing in a twist with no in-universe indication is bad writing. We may have the games, but as they're separate from the anime, the anime itself needs to tell us that she's evil or give us an actual hint. And again, I don't see how "condescending" and "emotionally abusive" even come close to one another, especially since I don't see Lusamine as being quite so condescending as she is just a workaholic. Parents calling their children their "babies" is hardly condescension...

For Faba, I have no personal feelings of it, but the game does explain that he wants to rise through the ranks and gain recognition, so it wasn't just mad scientist.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Lusamine calling Lillie a baby is more a symptom than the core. It's more her overall behaviour that's condescending, acting as if Lillie is still a little baby. Essentially Lusamine acted as if she didn't really see Lillie's skills or believe they were there without seeing it firsthand. It comes down to a lack of encouragement. You can explain it by the fact that Lusamine is gone from home so often that she barely ever saw Lillie, so she didn't really witness Lillie growing up, but that absence is exactly what Lillie doesn't really accept from her mother.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Lusamine calling Lillie a baby is more a symptom than the core. It's more her overall behaviour that's condescending, acting as if Lillie is still a little baby. Essentially Lusamine acted as if she didn't really see Lillie's skills or believe they were there without seeing it firsthand. It comes down to a lack of encouragement. You can explain it by the fact that Lusamine is gone from home so often that she barely ever saw Lillie, so she didn't really witness Lillie growing up, but that absence is exactly what Lillie doesn't really accept from her mother.

I wouldn't quite call that condescending, though. Neglectful, sure, but not condescending. I'd say about the only real thing they kept of Lusamine from the games, so far, is that she decides what's best for everyone, but even that is so heavily downplayed as it's only brought up once in regards to Clefairy, really, and being the source of Lillie's anger towards her mother. I guess I just feel they don't really do a good job of showing why Lillie should be mad at her mother outside of not getting to spend time with her. But that's my personal impression.
 

Dragalge

Custom title: If specified, this will replace the
Lillie and Gladion were in the middle of fighting a group of dragons and some automatically think that Lillie would change from one outfit into another like that while in the midst of getting attacked? What logic is this lmao? Yes people because stripping your clothes in exchange for another outfit when you could be attacking is going to go so well that you totally won’t get hurt.

———

As for the episode, it was fine to me. I liked that Lillie and Gladion once again got the spotlight with the others being in the background although I didn’t mind their inclusion on Poni Island either. 9/10
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
Closest thing I can see to making Lusamine a villain in the Anime is 1. Nihilego infecting her between 50 and the rescue episode with our cast having to deal with it LIKE the games. (Nebby blasting it out)

Then USUM where Lusamine HATES the wormholes... CAN play out in the anime where she would want to shoot an Ultra Beast on sight rather than meet one after her treatment of the venom. (Because of what happened with Nihilego in the anime.)

Suddenly Ash or Lillie makes friends with a Poipole or Kartana. (Only two ultra beasts that are social enough to willingly work with people... since it is USUM I say Poipole!)
 
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Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Sooooo, am I the only one wondering how Ash and co. got over the bridge? Also how Gladion and Lillie reached Poni Island?
I'm trying to think of a feasible explanation as to how Ash and the others crossed the bridge, but I actually can't come up with anything, unless James let the professors borrow the keys to the family helicopter and they just didn't show it on screen. As for how Lillie and Gladion reached Poni Island... Perhaps Silvally swam over there from Melemele? Either that, or the Aether family owns more than one boat, and Gladion has a license to drive a boat. I think the latter is more likely than the former, but who knows?
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I'm trying to think of a feasible explanation as to how Ash and the others crossed the bridge, but I actually can't come up with anything, unless James let the professors borrow the keys to the family helicopter and they just didn't show it on screen. As for how Lillie and Gladion reached Poni Island... Perhaps Silvally swam over there from Melemele? Either that, or the Aether family owns more than one boat, and Gladion has a license to drive a boat. I think the latter is more likely than the former, but who knows?

Maybe Popplio mastered those carrier bubbles at last?

Seriously the whole thing would have made more sense if they used that jet from last episode.

I think this arc is way too rushed compared to what Pokemon XYZ did with it arc

While I agree SM is far too rapid in places (we hardly got much time at all with Nebby) XYZ just dragged and dragged to hype up it's final arc and milk off the so-called league results (not that I didn't expect it or was really that upset about it, but the season long hype was shameless) with very tiny details of progression being placed in otherwise generic and unrelated TR/COTD filler-esque stories.

For what it's worth, SM does a decent job making nearly every episode stand out instead of a bunch of duds between the good episodes, even if that sometimes means shoving in way too much too quickly.
 
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Akkipeddi

Materia Hunter
While I agree SM is far too rapid in places (we hardly got much time at all with Nebby) XYZ just dragged and dragged to hype up it's final arc and milk off the so-called league results (not that I didn't expect it or was really that upset about it, but the season long hype was shameless) with very tiny details of progression being placed in otherwise generic and unrelated TR/COTD filler-esque stories.

For what it's worth, SM does a decent job making nearly every episode stand out instead of a bunch of duds between the good episodes, even if that sometimes means shoving in way too much too quickly.

Well he was talking about the handling of the villain arc in particular, and he's right that the AF arc has been very rushed. It started in SM044, with Ash dreaming about Solgaleo and Lunala with absolutely no foreshadowing beforehand, and finds Cosmog, and 8 episodes later, we're almost here at what seems to be the climax.

Besides, you love to exaggerate the whole TR and COTD episodes in XYZ, when there were only 10 fillers out of the 47 episodes. Besides, the Team Flare arc had a lot of foreshadowing (Olympia predicting the crisis), the Mega Evolution acts were actually low key Team Flare episodes, and of course, the arc itself was spread out, before the 5 episode climax. So when talking PURELY about the handling of the villain arc, AF, while fairly decent, has undoubtedly been very rushed.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Well he was talking about the handling of the villain arc in particular, and he's right that the AF arc has been very rushed. It started in SM044, with Ash dreaming about Solgaleo and Lunala with absolutely no foreshadowing beforehand, and finds Cosmog, and 8 episodes later, we're almost here at what seems to be the climax.

Besides, you love to exaggerate the whole TR and COTD episodes in XYZ, when there were only 10 fillers out of the 47 episodes. Besides, the Team Flare arc had a lot of foreshadowing (Olympia predicting the crisis), the Mega Evolution acts were actually low key Team Flare episodes, and of course, the arc itself was spread out, before the 5 episode climax. So when talking PURELY about the handling of the villain arc, AF, while fairly decent, has undoubtedly been very rushed.

It was very tiny bits of foreshadowing in otherwise unnoteworthy episodes though, with even some non-fillers falling victim to the standard formula (the first half of XYZ practically reverted back to pre-BW setup with a TR curb stomp shoehorned as the climax to every episode). I feel like a key reason so many felt ripped off by the final arc was because they held fans in suspense for so long with questionable episodes, while SM is doing the opposite extreme and maybe speeding through things too quickly, if at least being more versatile with it's storytelling.
 

Akkipeddi

Materia Hunter
It was very tiny bits of foreshadowing in otherwise unnoteworthy episodes though, with even some non-fillers falling victim to the standard formula (the first half of XYZ practically reverted back to pre-BW setup with a TR curb stomp shoehorned as the climax to every episode). I feel like a key reason so many felt ripped off by the final arc was because they held fans in suspense for so long with questionable episodes, while SM is doing the opposite extreme and maybe speeding through things too quickly, if at least being more versatile with it's storytelling.

Again, your claim of the first half of XYZ being full of TR curbstomps is an exaggeration. XYZ started on XY094, and only the next FOUR episodes were those types of episodes. After that point, almost all the episodes were important plot episodes, with occasional filler being added in. So, it's far from the truth calling the whole first half of XYZ full of TR curbstomps, when it was just those initial four filler episodes (and occasionally in some filler episodes later on, but they usually used to come after 4 to 5 important episodes).

Anyway, as for SM, I'd honestly say the AF arc has been pretty predictable so far. Maybe some episodes in SM have been versatile, but I'd not associate the AF arc as being versatile.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
I think this arc is way too rushed compared to what Pokemon XYZ did with it arc

Yeah i agree, but i am kinda glad they are rushing this arc, because i feel like this might be happening bc the Switch game is coming out on late 2018.

Though, If the new generation is not coming out on 2018, then they rushed it for no reason and that sucks...
 
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AuraChannelerChris

"Tis an honor to be recognized."
This region honestly has bad pacing in general and perhaps the most horrendous kind yet. Anything that happens forward is going to be massively affected all because the school setting and Melemele Island grounded Ash to a single spot and took so many episodes away from the other islands. Akala is basically boring. Ash's team is pretty lucky to have some USUM advertising for a strong lead besides Pikachu while Litten and Rowlet remain comic relief (so if Litten or Rowlet happen to evolve to their last forms, holy crap, will they gain those fast in the next half). Lillie got courageous a bit too soon even with her fear of touching in play. Team Skull is waaay more pathetic than the games but in a bad way considering its lack of screen time and importance.

And most important of all, Mallow is a nobody with almost nothing important to show besides her Steenee.

And if we get that new gen for the Switch next year, that means this region will have less episodes dedicated to it than the others because the writers immediately jump ship the moment a new game is released. Remember that we're already a year in with the anime in Alola.
 
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Akkipeddi

Materia Hunter
Yeah i agree, but i am kinda glad they are rushing this arc, because i feel like this might be happening bc the Switch game is coming out on late 2018.

Though, If the new generation is not coming out on 2018, then they rushed it for no reason and that sucks...

Well gamefreak keeps saying "2018 or later" for the Switch game, so I'm pretty sure they're aiming to release the game next year if possible, but can't commit to the possibility, hence the later.

I'm guessing the anime has also been informed to wrap up the main plot by 2018 by gamefreak, due to the possibility of the Switch game in 2018. However, I'm sure if the game releases in 2019, the anime will probably add in an extra arc to buy time. I just seriously hope it's something good, like maybe Rainbow Rocket, and not something like DA.
 
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