Elden Ring/Soulsborne/Sekiro Discussion

[KillerDraco]

As revealed in E3, Elden Ring, Fromsoftware's successor to the Soulsborne games, is releasing on 01/21/2022. The main selling points for these games has always been difficulty; hard but fair (except maybe the Bed of Chaos...) has always been the defining feature, and Elden Ring appears to follow that formula.

And now we have a thread to discuss the series, be it Elden Ring, Dark Souls, Demon Souls, Bloodborne, or Sekiro.

Insert Praise the Sun/Don't give up Skeleton/etc

 

[Auraninja]

I'm not well-versed in this series, but if I may ask, have there been any good attempts not made by FromSoftware to replicate the feel of these types of games?

 

[TheCharredDragon]

Praise the Sun!

Ahem. Anyways...

I'm not well-versed in this series, but if I may ask, have there been any good attempts not made by FromSoftware to replicate the feel of these types of games?

I'll admit I'm not that deep into the series yet but I do have my two cents to give. First, my first thought are Hollow Knight and Blasphemous, both 2D platformers considered Souls-like. But I will admit to not really knowing the two beyond that and that Hollow Knight is a good game.

And secondly, I know a channel involved with it that covers playing many kinds of Souls-like games, mainly obscure ones and many of them in beta. i have no idea if it's okay to link the channel so i'll mention It's called Iron Pineapple. Blasphemous was one of the games mentioned iirc. Maybe. It's been a while since I've seen his "I play x amount of Souls-like games" vids okay?

 

[bobjr]

Lords of the Fallen I believe is a bad Souls clone. Seriously every weapon is slow as dirt except the one sword where the heavy attack is incredibly fast for whatever reason, so there's no point in using anything else.

Also Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order is Souls mixed with Uncharted Platforming.

Really though despite the reputation I think Dark Souls 1 is a good game that rewards smart gameplay. The second half does have way more misses than hits though.

 

[KillerDraco]

I'll admit I'm not that deep into the series yet but I do have my two cents to give. First, my first thought are Hollow Knight and Blasphemous, both 2D platformers considered Souls-like. But I will admit to not really knowing the two beyond that and that Hollow Knight is a good game.

As someone who loves Hollow Knight, considers it one of my top 5 games of all time, I wouldn't really classify it was Soulslike at its core. I'd call it a Metroidvania that has some Souls-Lite elements; you do drop all your money upon death which you can recover (unless you die again before recovering it), but beyond that it's got more in common with Castlevania than Souls.

Really though despite the reputation I think Dark Souls 1 is a good game that rewards smart gameplay. The second half does have way more misses than hits though.

Really? I was under the impression this was a common opinion from what I've seen, while Dark Souls 2 has the abhorrent reputation. And having played through both Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2 back to back, I can definitely say Dark Souls 1 gave me an overall more enjoyable experience. As I'd previously mentioned, it definitely didn't meet up to the "hardest game ever!" that gaming journalism loves to paint it as, but it had a learning curve that, once it clicked, left a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment.

Dark Souls 3 is next on my list, and excited to see how it compares. My friends keep telling me they think it'll be my favorite of the three, so we'll see how it plays out.

 

[TheCharredDragon]

As someone who loves Hollow Knight, considers it one of my top 5 games of all time, I wouldn't really classify it was Soulslike at its core. I'd call it a Metroidvania that has some Souls-Lite elements; you do drop all your money upon death which you can recover (unless you die again before recovering it), but beyond that it's got more in common with Castlevania than Souls.

Oh okay then. but now that you've compared it to castlevania now i wanna play it even more

 

[bobjr]

Really? I was under the impression this was a common opinion from what I've seen, while Dark Souls 2 has the abhorrent reputation. And having played through both Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2 back to back, I can definitely say Dark Souls 1 gave me an overall more enjoyable experience. As I'd previously mentioned, it definitely didn't meet up to the "hardest game ever!" that gaming journalism loves to paint it as, but it had a learning curve that, once it clicked, left a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment.

Dark Souls 3 is next on my list, and excited to see how it compares. My friends keep telling me they think it'll be my favorite of the three, so we'll see how it plays out.

I guess I mean the more outside opinion of "This is a hard game you have to beat if you want to consider yourself a real gamer", which thankfully has gotten better over the decade since it's come out. It's a game that punishes you for sure and isn't easy by any means, but I never liked how it was treated as a skill gate series instead of one that gives someone who likes adventure games a good challenge.

Dark Souls 3 was ruined for me because I played Bloodborne right before, and while Dark Souls 3 is still really good Bloodborne just does almost everything better in my mind.

 

[KillerDraco]

Honestly the biggest surprise for me going into Dark Souls was that the lore was actually really good. Like we hear about the difficulty (which again, gaming journalists just LOVE to overstate), but the depth of the world and characters pleasantly surprised me. That was probably why DS2 didn't click with me as much; the lore didn't feel as fulfilling or unified as it did in DS1.

 

[TheCharredDragon]

Honestly the biggest surprise for me going into Dark Souls was that the lore was actually really good.

I feel that's ironic as what got me interested into the series wasn't the gameplay, but the lore. Oh yeah I heard about it being hard and stuff, but I was so curious about the world of Dark Souls and how all the lore is presented in the game that I eventually decided to give it a try. now i just need to get to the end but my priorities keep changin

 

[bobjr]

Dark Souls 1 Lore is pretty good because almost all of the answers are there with some mysteries that are unanswered, which people love to theorize about. Plus it has the advantage that you don't have to engage with it if it's uninteresting to you as well.

Dark Souls 2 went all in on the vagueness and mystery without setting up a real cohesive plot or worldbuilding, and before Scholar of the First Sin it was even worse about it. I know it's infamous for the Harvest Valley/Iron Keep transition, and I'll usually handwave that as it's not meant to be a literal next to each other thing, but I had no Anor Londo moment where the area really felt impressive or earned.

 

[shoz999]

Any Nioh fans here?

Nioh is one of the few games where you actually feel incredibly powerful on the surface with the flashy and fast action, encouraging you to take risks until you die because of a few hits.

 

[KillerDraco]

So I did end up wrapping Dark Souls 3 a few weeks back, including capping it off with first trying Midir and Gael. And of the two, I gotta say the one whose difficulty I found somewhat overhyped was Midir. Sure it's an endurance fight with a galaxy sized HP bar, but none of his attacks were very difficult to dodge given they were highly telegraphed and had very generous iframe windows. The first time not knowing what to expect at first I ended up beating him with only using 7 Estus, and after fighting him a few more times by letting people summon me for him, I honestly think I could probably beat him hitless on a solo run. Although I'd say phantoms make him slightly harder because if everyone doesn't stay squared up, his random turns to face other players can definitely throw timing off... if not invoke the annoying tail whip.

I mean I can see why he would give people trouble if they didn't get the hint to stay squared up (which clicked pretty quickly when I realized the head took more damage and he stop spamming the downward fire breath if you're not under him), but considering how many people/articles/etc seem to hail him as one of the hardest bosses in the series... I dunno if I found him to live up to the hype. It felt very scripted when I realized how easily you could bait his easy to dodge melee attacks by staying close to the head, and even most of his fire wasn't too difficult to dodge, again assuming you're not standing directly under him.

Definitely a fun fight though, and one I enjoyed doing enough to let random people summon me to fight him again.

DS3 was definitely my favorite of the three and my final rankings would be: DS1 - 7.5/10, DS2 - 6.5/10, DS3 - 9/10. The faster speed and more grandiose boss battles of DS3 sealed the deal as an easy favorite, despite it being the most linear of the three. But linearity isn't in and of itself a bad thing in my book as long as it's fun to play.

Faron Keep and Irythill Dungeon notwithstanding. At least the former had the incredible Abyss Watchers to make it all worthwhile.

 

[bobjr]

The Abyss Watchers are a great boss because they’re there to kind of teach the player to be a little more like Bloodborne and be aggressive but smart instead of having a shield up and expecting to just turtle up and wait for an attack opportunity.

It is always great to see someone’s first souls experience be all armor and slowly moving forward with a shield up, and by game 2-3 it’s all two handing heavy weapons and rolling all the time.

 

[KillerDraco]

In all fairness I'd say if you start with DS1 it more logically tracks that someone might try to armor/poise up and attempt a turtle strat, because that game is definitely the most forgiving, if not the most rewarding of said turtle strats. Some bosses like Capra, Four Kings, and Bed of Chaos can definitely be made easier by being able to poise tank, and shields generally have higher stability. Whereas in DS2/DS3, poise tank strats generally don't work as well and shields have lower stability, so you'll burn through your stamina bar in a hurry if you try that.

That said I do think shields still have a place, they're a great tool for first timers to give them a better safety net to observe enemy patterns and learn timings. Plus I don't think there's anything more satisfying than parrying Gwyn or Pontiff.

 

[bobjr]

Yeah, the only real complaint I have with the first half of Dark Souls is that once you leave the Asylum it doesn't really guide you in the best way to the Undead Burgh, and easily can lead you to the immortal skeletons, but otherwise is a great introduction to Souls games.

I do think Bloodborne making your shield a gun that has both offense and defense option is one of the best design changes they did, along with the health regen if you attack after you're hurt.

 

[KillerDraco]

Yes, aside from it being a little too easy to end up in Skeleton gank hell instead of Undead Burg, I found myself loving the first half of DS1. It was so well inter-connected with convenient shortcuts, and if you opted for the Master Key, it really let you take some unintended paths to reap rewards far earlier than you otherwise would... assuming you know where to look.

That said though, one minor gripe that leads me to which isn't necessarily a flaw in and of itself but rather an annoyance, is that this has led to a staggering amount of twinked out ganks in Undead Burg and Parish. It's a little too easy to absolutely break the early game with twinking and thus end up with overpowered invaders that you have no chance against unless you twink yourself out as well. I had my fair share of unwinnable invasions on my first time through...

...Though if I'm being honest, DS1's PvP as a whole was probably the least balanced of the three games.

 

[bobjr]

Honestly PvP in Dark Souls games I'm not the biggest fan of, outside of specific PvP areas. The netcode will often just be buggy enough where your hits will miss and the enemy will backstab you instead, and it's usually surprise attacks or something meant to screw you over, and if you don't want to be invaded you're taking a nerf of some kind.

Bloodborne is honestly the only one I like because you have to ring a specific bell to be invaded or do PvP, otherwise it's not a factor at all.

But nothing will be as bad as Demon's Souls with spells that do things like reduce your level permanently or weapons like the scraping spear that cause your armor to break, and is very easy to make.

 

[KillerDraco]

For those who missed out, there were some Elden Ring updates last week.

First: Elden Ring has been delayed for about a month.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450100145689927683

Second: Elden Ring is having a closed network test, which anyone can sign up for by November 1st. No PC option for the Network Test though so you'll need to do so on console.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450099369907195905