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English Only Laws

Adrexus

Do it the bird way!
In today's western world we are very multicultural. There is no one group that dominates the ethnic makeup of America (as well as Canada, Australia and some countries in Europe) With the advent of the immigration wave of the late 19th and early 20th centuries there was an influx of many people from around the world into the United States. With them came their languages and native cultures.

Currently there is no where written into American law that english is the national language. But, should it be? After all the population is primarily english speakers. It begs the question: When an immigrant comes to America (or any nation for that matter) He is the one that wants to adapt after all, right? Why should people bend over backwards to cater to him in his own language when he made the decision to come over here in the first place? If I go to Saudi Arabia, do you think they are going to cater to me in english? Many secondary schools now offer english as a second language. Why should the taxpayers fund a program to teach a language that the immigrant should have learned before he came over here?

It is also said that english only laws are xenophobic. However, many countries still have strict laws about speaking their native language. Why should the United States not be allowed to do the same? They would have to be just as xenophobic as us then. Many countries see it as protecting their culture, could the same be said for the United States?

Also, for convenience sake it makes daily life much easier if everyone already speaks the same language. A fast food worker is going to have a much more difficult time if he can only speak spanish or at best poor english.

Yet, since the United States is made up of more than one culture and language, is it right for one group to exercise their will over the rest of the population that doesn't speak english?
 

Malanu

Est sularus oth mith
Call me old school but yes. English is (if unofficially) The national language. Should signs be multi language, only in airports, or high tourist areas. I remember a McDonald's in Seoul before the Olympics. The Menu board took up almost 2 walls to accommodate the international tourists! I can even see a need to have multi lingual signs in boarder states as a courtesy.
 

bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
are as ineffective as they are dumb. Many states seem to think they are awesome, although they go against the Native American Languages Act. :rolleyes:
 
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Rezzo

Occasionally
The country would become divided as a whole if foreign-speaking immigrants started growing out of proportion in a certain area or state(s). People there wouldn't have to adapt to the rest of America and would still get the same treatment as a local speaking American citizen. Division as a country, especially because of language barriers, is never really much of a good thing. National language, official or not, is important.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
The general train of thought behind "English only laws" is that English is the dominant, primary language of the majority of the population.But in some parts of the country, that is changing or going to change within the next 10 years. So in 10 years when, say, Arizona or southern Texas is majority-Spanish speakers, should they be allowed to pass Spanish only laws?

I think Mitt Romney talked about this in one of the GOP debates earlier in the year. He talked about as far as managing a government, forms and signs and whatnot can be in multiple languages because it is typically adults who are already set in their ways reading the traffic signs and filling out the forms. But when it comes to children, public schools should teach in English. I tend to agree with that.

I'd wager that in 90% of the country, most of this applies to 1 other language besides English. I'd wager that it is very rare, outside of urban, coastal areas, for more than one non-English language to be spoken of in a general community (by community, I mean neighborhood type area. IE Chinatown parts of major cities obviously have both English and Chinese speakers, but you aren't likely to see someone whose primary language is Spanish in that part of town).
 

32er

TM87? I got TM32 :]
It's the same in the UK -- Anywhere you go, there will be a **** load of people speaking some language you don't understand a word of.
 
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bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
Touche. But unfortunately to the winners go the spoils. Although I would like to maybe learn Navajo.

You should tell that at parties alongside Jews in the oven jokes. @Randomspot, I agree children should learn English, but we need to take into account Generation 1.5 learners and other subgroups of ESL students in order to effectively teach them English. English Only policies do not provide this framework.
 

Malanu

Est sularus oth mith
Why shouldn't I be able to Bel9? I grew up laughing at Pollock jokes and I'm Irish and Polish! However the prominent language is English and if you live here you need to speak/learn the nations language. IF I were to move to a different country, it would be in my best interests to learn the native language. I wouldn't have the hubris to expect a nation to change their language because I don't speak it.
 

BigLutz

Banned
@Randomspot, I agree children should learn English, but we need to take into account Generation 1.5 learners and other subgroups of ESL students in order to effectively teach them English. English Only policies do not provide this framework.

And in ESL classes that can work, however now days in many parts of the country knowing Spanish is a must have requirement for many teachers even in normal classes. Thus putting many qualified teachers out of the workforce.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
You should tell that at parties alongside Jews in the oven jokes. @Randomspot, I agree children should learn English, but we need to take into account Generation 1.5 learners and other subgroups of ESL students in order to effectively teach them English. English Only policies do not provide this framework.

And I completely agree. It is much harder for adults to learn something, as in be FLUENT, in a new language than it is for children. People who come here age 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, while it would obviously be beneficial to them learning English, they shouldn't be stuck into an English only program. And of course, govt forms and signs and traffic signals should still be in the necessary languages where they are needed.

Why shouldn't I be able to Bel9? I grew up laughing at Pollock jokes and I'm Irish and Polish! However the prominent language is English and if you live here you need to speak/learn the nations language. IF I were to move to a different country, it would be in my best interests to learn the native language. I wouldn't have the hubris to expect a nation to change their language because I don't speak it.

Difference is English isn't the official language. Again, if in 10 years Spanish becomes the dominant language, would you support Spanish only laws?

There's a big misconception that people are "changing" the language when someone who primarily speaks,say, French comes here. They don't. However, people who gather and live in a community develop cultural norms and customs. And sometimes those customs get recognized by government. Major cities have had Chinatowns for hundreds of years, and despite Chinese not being the dominant language ANYWHERE in the United States, people who are Chinese who live and work and socialize primarily in Chinatowns speak Chinese and often govt and business sign and literature is in both English and Chinese. Similarly, in predominantly Jewish communities, civil courts might create separate divisions where Jewish law is followed (assuming both parties agree to the terms).

Now you go out of a Chinatown, no one is going to care in...say, Boston if you speak Chinese outside of Chinatown.
 
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bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
And in ESL classes that can work, however now days in many parts of the country knowing Spanish is a must have requirement for many teachers even in normal classes. Thus putting many qualified teachers out of the workforce.

I'm just refuting misguided and uninformed English Only initiatives which have do an effect on ESL and other programs.

If Spanish is a requirement (a qualification) than aren't the teachers unqualified? Why not make your own thread about teaching requirements?

Why shouldn't I be able to Bel9? I grew up laughing at Pollock jokes and I'm Irish and Polish!

Write a genocide joke book!

However the prominent language is English and if you live here you need to speak/learn the nations language. IF I were to move to a different country, it would be in my best interests to learn the native language.

Can you point to the post in this thread where I disagree with this statement? I'm opposing English Only initiatives because of the detrimental effect they have on the groups they are "supposed" to benefit.
 

BigLutz

Banned
Difference is English isn't the official language. Again, if in 10 years Spanish becomes the dominant language, would you support Spanish only laws?

Problem with that is while Spanish may be the dominant language in small areas of the country, we still expect those citizens to be able to engage and move about with the country at large, thus it would be best to move more hastily in those areas to integrate them into the English Language.

Furthermore, one has to wonder how much of that growth in language is brought by actual immigrants, and how many are because of illegal immigrants.

bel9 said:
If Spanish is a requirement (a qualification) than aren't the teachers unqualified? Why not make your own thread about teaching requirements?

Seeing how English Only Laws would be reflected in the school room with children outside of ESL classes, I believe I am right to bring it up. Furthermore we should be judging teachers not by how many languages they speak because a few students have not learned the dominant language of the country, but how well they teach in the classroom.
 
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Malanu

Est sularus oth mith
Write a genocide joke book!
My Brother and I worked on a Leper joke book, so I probably could write one, then again I have a dark sense of humor. You act as if everyone gets offended at race jokes? I know the racial stereotypes associated with my nationalities and choose to laugh at the funny jokes and try to improve the not so funny ones.



Can you point to the post in this thread where I disagree with this statement? I'm opposing English Only initiatives because of the detrimental effect they have on the groups they are "supposed" to benefit.
It's more your tone than anything you specifically said. If you live in the US you should learn English. Until such a time that the dominate language becomes something else.

Randomspot555 said:
However, people who gather and live in a community develop cultural norms and customs.
And they can have their cultural norm in their community, but the nation primarily speaks English, so speaking English is important to learn. Until such a time as a new majority is recognized... this will be how it is.
 
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bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
Seeing how English Only Laws would be reflected in the school room with children outside of ESL classes, I believe I am right to bring it up.

I don't understand you here. Can you clarify? What is it about English Only you want to see reflected in education?

Do you want to discourage bilingualism?

Should we punish code-switchers?

Furthermore we should be judging teachers not by how many languages they speak because a few students have not learned the dominant language of the country, but how well they teach in the classroom.

Can you provide data that proves bilingual teachers are inferior to monolingual teachers?

Furthermore, one has to wonder how much of that growth in language is brought by actual immigrants, and how many are because of illegal immigrants.

No, one does not.
 
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BigLutz

Banned
I don't understand you here. Can you clarify? What is it about English Only you want to see reflected in education?

Do you want to discourage bilingualism?

Should we punish code-switchers?

I have no problem with ESL classes as stand alone, and bilingualism as a subject you can take in middle school and high school. However I do not believe that many classes ( That are not specifically ESL ) that are already over packed and understaffed need to further split the teacher's time having to explain things that are in English and Spanish because the parents did not work to teach the child English when they were 2 or 3.

Can you provide data that proves bilingual teachers are inferior to monolingual teachers?

Never said they were, however many teachers are not bilingual, thus you are immediately cutting out a good size of a already shrinking pool. By not creating ESL classes, and instead dumping them into a normal classroom they are not only limiting the number of teachers they can hire but are making it harder on the students.
 
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bel9

n3w 2 sppf :3
I have no problem with ESL classes as stand alone, and bilingualism as a subject you can take in middle school and high school. However I do not believe that many classes ( That are not specifically ESL ) that are already over packed and understaffed need to further split the teacher's time having to explain things that are in English and Spanish because the parents did not work to teach the child English when they were 2 or 3.

I'll disagree with you here because I am interested in providing gradeschoolers with bilingual opportunities. If you believe that English Only is merely a response to this phenomena than you are gravely mistaken and/or conflating it with this scenario, which only provides further frustration to those who actually have to deal with it.

Never said they were, however many teachers are not bilingual, thus you are immediately cutting out a good size of a already shrinking pool. By not creating ESL classes, and instead dumping them into a normal classroom they are not only limiting the number of teachers they can hire but are making it harder on the students.

I have never argued for such a policy. I'm just refuting English Only, which is the subject of this thread.
 

BigLutz

Banned
I'll disagree with you here because I am interested in providing gradeschoolers with bilingual opportunities. If you believe that English Only is merely a response to this phenomena than you are gravely mistaken and/or conflating it with this scenario, which only provides further frustration to those who actually have to deal with it.

Gradeschoolers need to be provided many things however by taking time out to having to reteach what the teacher has just taught to a small group of students. It not only takes away time from the rest of the class, but also shortens the class.

I have never argued for such a policy. I'm just refuting English Only, which is the subject of this thread.

A English Only policy would cut out the requirement that many schools have that a teacher must be bilingual because they dump the Spanish Speaking Children into the classes with English Speaking Students.
 

Malanu

Est sularus oth mith
I'll disagree with you here because I am interested in providing gradeschoolers with bilingual opportunities. If you believe that English Only is merely a response to this phenomena than you are gravely mistaken and/or conflating it with this scenario, which only provides further frustration to those who actually have to deal with it.



I have never argued for such a policy. I'm just refuting English Only, which is the subject of this thread.
Ah, I think I see your point here. However, English should remain a PRIMARY language taught in school as it is the major language spoke. Learning second or even forth languages is not without it's place in education, but English should take priority. Plus how do we determine what should be the 2nd language taught? Should it be by proximity? or which is spoke 2nd most commonly? Or even by language aptitude testing?
 
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