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Evolution VS. Creation

Which do you believe in?

  • The Theory Of Evolution

    Votes: 130 73.9%
  • Creationism

    Votes: 46 26.1%

  • Total voters
    176
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Eloi

Well-Known Member
The only reason that Muslim country had made such huge advancements was because they had access to the library of Alexandria. When after the crusades we gained it back it began the Renaissance.

Now I'm confused; do you mean the library of Alexandria that was obliterated in a fire long before Islam was even a religion? That library was burned long before Muhammad was even born; back then Christianity wasn't even a widely recognized religion yet (I admit I don't remember if the fire was BC or AD, only that it was within 50 years of the birth of Christ).
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
What the library of Alexandria was in Egypt. Egyptians are normally not white. I am not saying they copied everything, but it helps to have giants on whom to stand.
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
48 bce the library was conquered by rome. it was damaged.
300 ad Aurelian damgaed it.
391 ad Pope Theophilus damaged it
462 the muslim church destroyed it.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
"Common Knowledge" is not a citation.
That's because I assumed it was something everybody knew since it's said so much in the media but if you insist.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12021&page=41

Simple basic history shows that very religious Muslim nations made a lot of advancements in the sciences, and economic problems (like the Black Death, collapse of the Roman Empire, quarrelling nation-states, invaders) was what hindered Europe, not religion.
Oh no doubt religious societies have done it, but I can't say the same thing for the Christians who attempted to persecute people like Galileo.

Sometimes it did; sometimes it didn't, but for the most part in a Christian society that doesn't diverse, it usually did.
Correlation does not imply causation.
I didn't imply anything but the fact that the happiest are Atheist; surely at the very least that means religion has little to do with overall 'happiness'.
 

Eloi

Well-Known Member
48 bce the library was conquered by rome. it was damaged.
300 ad Aurelian damgaed it.
391 ad Pope Theophilus damaged it
462 the muslim church destroyed it.

Here is history:
Muslims won Crusades, Byzantine Empire collapsed.
Muslims established trade with Europe due to wars not taking place and the Byzantine Empire not obstructing flow of goods.
Muslim books are transfered to Europe, thus sparking scientific thought, and sense the Europeans weren't throwing their money away in abroad wars, they had the economic power to follow through on it.
Constantinople falling in 1453 and the Renaissance happening shortly thereafter is not a coincidence.
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
Ok but my point is that all the start up knowledge was from the library and not religion. I am not saying that the Islamic world did not add to it, I am just saying that religion was not the cause.
 
What the library of Alexandria was in Egypt. Egyptians are normally not white. I am not saying they copied everything, but it helps to have giants on whom to stand.

How could they have been copying a race that appeared AFTER them? The first civilizations on Earth were the river-valley civilizations, and the first one of these to develop was in either Egypt or Mesopotamia (I remember that there are four, including China, India, and Mesopotamia, but I don't remember the name of the last one; only that it was closer to Mesopotamia than the other two).
Here's how I can always remind myself of this fact, a simple quote I learned from a friend of my brother (it's definitely not politically correct; I'm a bit ashamed of it; but it is at least half true no matter who you are): "The Middle East was the first place to have a civilization and the last place to become civilized."

Egypt was thriving 3000 years BC; Rome, the most organized, intelligent, and powerful superpower in Ancient Europe, didn't even get off its feet until sometime after 1000 BC. The myth the Romans had about Romulus and Remus; the legendary twins who were raised by a she-wolf and grew up to found Rome; states that they founded it around 773 BC (give or take), and that is generally believed to be earlier than the real founding of Rome.
 

Eloi

Well-Known Member
That's because I assumed it was something everybody knew since it's said so much in the media but if you insist.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12021&page=41
Well America not being intelligent has very little baring on our conversation about theism, now does it?
Oh no doubt religious societies have done it, but I can't say the same thing for the Christians who attempted to persecute people like Galileo.

Sometimes it did; sometimes it didn't, but for the most part in a Christian society that doesn't diverse, it usually did.
Name ten people who died or were persecuted by the Catholic Church that had important scientific discoveries, with sources.

I didn't imply anything but the fact that the happiest are Atheist; surely at the very least that means religion has little to do with overall 'happiness'.
Then why mention irrelevant data?

Ok but my point is that all the start up knowledge was from the library and not religion. I am not saying that the Islamic world did not add to it, I am just saying that religion was not the cause.

But thats not what we were discussing. What we were discussing is if religion always a hindrance to science, and the Islamic world is a very clear indicator that is not the case, and their knowledge flowing into Europe is the reason of the Renaissance, not an unhealthy state of religion.
 
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ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
Ok i miss spoke earlier. let me fix that. What!!! The library of Alexandria was in Egypt. Egyptians are normally not white. I am not saying Islam copied everything, but it helps to have giants on whom to stand.
 

Eloi

Well-Known Member
Ok i miss spoke earlier. let me fix that. What!!! The library of Alexandria was in Egypt. Egyptians are normally not white. I am not saying Islam copied everything, but it helps to have giants on whom to stand.

In terms of Giant-Standing the Europeans did it too. Renaissance Europeans stood on Romans who stood on Greeks who stood on- guess what- Egyptians.

Also, no, Alexandria was a Greek city, with Greek people, and the Library was a repository of Greek works, all in Hellenistic Egypt.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Well America not being intelligent has very little baring on our conversation about theism, now does it?
It's hard to graduate in science and math when you have our religious speakers and institutions either putting it in a wrong light or out right discouraging it.

Not to mention that a person is simply less likely to take sciences seriously because they constantly fight with their religious beliefs; ie, cognitive dissonance. The less dissonance there is, the better.

Name ten people who died or were persecuted by the Catholic Church that had important scientific discoveries, with sources.
It doesn't matter how many I present. It's the simple fact that you would be persecuted. As long as you establish that, not many people are going to be willing to discover much.

Then why mention irrelevant data?
It's not irrelevant. Are you not looking at my reply to SunnyC?
 
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Eloi

Well-Known Member
It's hard to graduate in science and math when you have our religious speakers and institutions either putting it in a wrong light or out right discouraging it.
That is an opinion.
Not to mention that a person is simply less likely to take sciences seriously because they constantly fight with their religious beliefs; ie, cognitive dissonance. The less dissonance there is, the better.
Yeah, I heard Christians are campaigning hard against Chemists, Programmers, and Psychologists.

It doesn't matter how many I present. It's the simple fact that you would be persecuted. As long as you establish that, not many people are going to be willing to discover much.
No, so far you have established is that Galileo was persecuted.


It's not irrelevant. Are you not looking at my reply to SunnyC?
Can you please make plain what you want to say instead of pointing to other posts and dancing around the questions?
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
In terms of Giant-Standing the Europeans did it too. Renaissance Europeans stood on Romans who stood on Greeks who stood on- guess what- Egyptians.

Also, no, Alexandria was a Greek city, with Greek people, and the Library was a repository of Greek works, all in Hellenistic Egypt.

Alexandria was originally Egyptian. Conquered by Alexander the great then made Greek and then Rome and finally fell to the Islamic world.
 

Eloi

Well-Known Member
Alexandria was originally Egyptian. Conquered by Alexander the great then made Greek and then Rome and finally fell to the Islamic world.

Actually no, Alexandra was founded in April 331 BC as Ἀλεξάνδρεια (Alexándreia), a Greek city.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
That is an opinion.
Or is it? It's a trend if there is one. Out of those developed countries, guess which one has the most vocal religious people?

It's not like our scientific curriculum is flawed either. It's just simple dissonance. It's easier to learn about the world around us when we already haven't made up our minds about it.

Yeah, I heard Christians are campaigning hard against Chemists, Programmers, and Psychologists.
But many do compaign against stem-cell research, birth control, and suggest AIDs is brought to homosexuals by God..

No, so far you have established is that Galileo was persecuted.
What do you mean no? The fact that you would get persecuted makes scientific discoveries weaker.

But if you really insist on finding at least a list.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-sciencechristianity.htm

Scroll until you see names in bold. I'm not going to give you and a biography of each and every scientist ever scared to publish studies in the last 500 years. I'm not asking you to do your homework with that other religious side debate going on; I don't see why something as simple as this requires such delicate reading.

Can you please make plain what you want to say instead of pointing to other posts and dancing around the questions?
READ. MY. REPLY. TO. SUNNCY. You jumped in. Do it yourself.
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
That is an opinion.
Yeah, I heard Christians are campaigning hard against Chemists, Programmers, and Psychologists. Here is what they do campaign against. Atomic science (radiometric dating), quantum science,(Stating god controls everything) Evolution, biology, geology, geogrophy (Flat earth) Astronomy, environmental science. need I go on?


No, so far you have established is that Galileo was persecuted. Darwin, Copernicus,



Can you please make plain what you want to say instead of pointing to other posts and dancing around the questions?
Here you go. Science is stalled by religion.
 

Eloi

Well-Known Member
Here you go. Science is stalled by religion.

And yet it moves. Regardless of what a vocal minority of Christians do, Science is still here, everyone you have mentioned still got their ideas out into the community. Thus, religion has yet to be a good hindrance to science.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
He said stalls. Not stops. If you hold back important discoveries and discourage them, that is considered stalling and hindering knowledge.

Like I said, if we increased our general knowledge of the world at a steady rate even a few hundred years ago, we'd be farther ahead than we are today.
 

ebilly99

Americanreigon champ
Slowing down science is not enough WOW Is all I can say. You are telling me as long as we are moving forward we are ok!!! Yeah as long as science does not destroy Knowledge it is ok to not allow new knowledge. Friend I don't think anyone can debate that. If you want knowledge that is stunted well WOW
 
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