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Explain to me the cons of basing our culture off religion.

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Immortalis

Active Member
First of all, how many Muslims have you met first hand?

And with first hand you mean people I actually KNOW or just have seen or I've personally had some kind of experience with them?

Second, your example is bad. Skinheads are much, much more specific than Muslims. Skinheads have identifiable Nazi symbols and a CLEAR objective. Of COURSE I'd be scared of a guy with a Nazi tattoo and a bald head: there is no MISTAKE they'd be a skinhead and hate me. That's the point of the club. When you see Muslims, there is no clear objective from them.

There are enough skinheads in the world that are AGAINST Nazism and Racism, in fact, a friend of mine is skinhead and he's against Nazism and Racism. And it's funny how you, when I mentioned skinheads, at once mentioned Nazi symbols while I said no such thing. See what I mean now. If you see a skinhead or hear someone say the word skinhead you would automatically think it's a Nazi. When I see a muslim I automatically think it's a bad person, just because all my past experiences with them have been bad. That's my point, I hope you finally understand it?

Okay, so you have no evidence. Then you don't even have the right to ask others for it (.. even though it's been provided for you time and time again).

I'm not asking for it anymore now. Call me ignorant, but even though "tests" show that most muslims are good persons I still wouldn't believe it just because of my own experiences.

What are you going to do when you meet a nice person and find out they're Muslim, by the way? Will you go silent? Will you run? Will you insult them endlessly?

Hmm, interesting question. That depends, first of all I've never met any white person that is a Muslim and second of all I don't really think a "traditional" muslim would come near me as I am now.
But if I got to know one against all odds I don't know what I would do, to be honest. I guess if that would happen I would come here and take my words back.

Wait, did you have a family member die anyway? If you didn't, why would you compare that to this?

Yes actually, I lost my uncle, he moved to America when I was like 6 or 7. I don't remember much because I was like 8/9 years back then. Only remember my mom came to me and said he was dead.

So as much as you hate Muslims, you wouldn't flinch near an Arabian dressed in a turban? Interesting. It's kinda hard for people to have prejudices without a mental image of the said prejudice (because after all, it'd be like hating something you never met, saw, or even identified in your life. Wait, you haven't anyway!)

Yep. Of course I would probably be watching him to see if he's doing something suspicious. How would you expect me to react?
They all look different, but they're still muslim, and they're easy to recognize.
And what was the last thing you said? That I haven't met, seen or identified a muslim in my life? I don't even know what the hell prejudice means so I can't answer that.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Immortalis said:
And with first hand you mean people I actually KNOW or just have seen or I've personally had some kind of experience with them?
Anything that involves an actual Muslim in front of your eyes.

There are enough skinheads in the world that are AGAINST Nazism and Racism, in fact, a friend of mine is skinhead and he's against Nazism and Racism. And it's funny how you, when I mentioned skinheads, at once mentioned Nazi symbols while I said no such thing. See what I mean now. If you see a skinhead or hear someone say the word skinhead you would automatically think it's a Nazi. When I see a muslim I automatically think it's a bad person, just because all my past experiences with them have been bad. That's my point, I hope you finally understand it?
No, because I'm talking about a specific skinhead (these are mostly the ones in the States, anyway).

If we're just talking about a bald white guy, I would feel somewhat scared alone with him, but I wouldn't act any different towards him or say that my judgment is 100% correct.

I understand that it is a fashion or a subculture that has many divisions, but IF I saw one with a Nazi sign (or anything resembling "racist connotations" other than being bald) you bet your *** I'd be out of there faster than Jesse Owens.

I'm not asking for it anymore now. Call me ignorant, but even though "tests" show that most muslims are good persons I still wouldn't believe it just because of my own experiences.
Seems like I was right about the stubborn part. Even if you were shown evidence, you wouldn't change your mind.

SO WHY DID YOU ASK FOR ANY?

second of all I don't really think a "traditional" muslim would come near me as I am now.
Why?

Yes actually, I lost my uncle, he moved to America when I was like 6 or 7. I don't remember much because I was like 8/9 years back then. Only remember my mom came to me and said he was dead.
So, the core of all this is that you've lost a family member due to a certain type of people who are identifiable by their beliefs.

But that "belief" can be held by anyone and there is a certain degree someone can hold their beliefs; especially in religion. This is where a rational person draws the line. I've never lost a family member to a "certain type of person" but I have experienced racial remarks from whites. I'm still pretty fine in terms of meeting and speaking with white people. I don't even prejudge any of them (well, unless they were bald and looking at me weird). As Sunny said, everyone experiences some type of instinctual reaction, but it's what you do with it that matters.

Yep. Of course I would probably be watching him to see if he's doing something suspicious. How would you expect me to react?
They all look different, but they're still muslim, and they're easy to recognize.
And what was the last thing you said? That I haven't met, seen or identified a muslim in my life? I don't even know what the hell prejudice means so I can't answer that.
Earlier you said "It's a good thing I don't think all Muslims look like that" and now you say they're easy to recognize. Which one is it?

You don't know what prejudice means? I've only defined it 100 times already throughout this topic.
 
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Immortalis

Active Member
Anything that involves an actual Muslim in front of your eyes.

Yes, more then enough.

Seems like I was right about the stubborn part. Even if you were shown evidence, you wouldn't change your mind SO WHY DID YOU ASK FOR ANY?

Because you kept whining about me not showing evidence so I asked you to provide evidence, since you so badly wanted to argue with evidence.


Hmm, I'm pretty tall for my age, I have pentagrams and inverted crosses pretty much everywhere, on my clothes etc, got piercings and a mohawk, large boots and stuff like that.

So, the core of all this is that you've lost a family member due to a certain type of people who are identifiable by their beliefs.

But that "belief" can be held by anyone and there is a certain degree someone can hold their beliefs; especially in religion. This is where a rational person draws the line. I've never lost a family member to a "certain type of person" but I have experienced racial remarks from whites. I'm still pretty fine in terms of meeting and speaking with white people. I don't even prejudge any of them (well, unless they were bald and looking at me weird). As Sunny said, everyone experiences some type of instinctual reaction, but it's what you do with it that matters.

Actually, my hatred towards religious people started when I was like 11 years old, then when I got older I got beat up pretty much every week in school by those muslims just because I looked different (one of the reasons we moved to Sweden, btw..), like I said before, and then I started to hate muslims. Then I remembered my uncle died in 9/11 and that only made me hate terrorists and muslims even more.

Maybe the muslims in the States are more peaceful then in the shithole I used to live in, and maybe there they actually work for their money and try to learn the language, but not in Holland.

Earlier you said "It's a good thing I don't think all Muslims look like that" and now you say they're easy to recognize. Which one is it?

It's both. They look different, but it's easy to tell when someone's a muslim or not. That's what I meant.

You don't know what prejudice means? I've only defined it 100 times already throughout this topic.

Well then, could you define it once more or shall we keep it at "nevermind"?
 

M4zz

Banned
I see where you're coming from, but you must realise it isn't the race's fault? It's them or their parents. Just because a member from another race bullies you, doesn't mean you should hate the entire race. That's just immoral.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Because you kept whining about me not showing evidence so I asked you to provide evidence, since you so badly wanted to argue with evidence.
Welcome to the debate forum.

Hmm, I'm pretty tall for my age, I have pentagrams and inverted crosses pretty much everywhere, on my clothes etc, got piercings and a mohawk, large boots and stuff like that.
That means none will come near you?

Actually, my hatred towards religious people started when I was like 11 years old, then when I got older I got beat up pretty much every week in school by those muslims just because I looked different (one of the reasons we moved to Sweden, btw..), like I said before, and then I started to hate muslims. Then I remembered my uncle died in 9/11 and that only made me hate terrorists and muslims even more.

Maybe the muslims in the States are more peaceful then in the shithole I used to live in, and maybe there they actually work for their money and try to learn the language, but not in Holland.
So, it finally comes out. You were simply bullied by Muslims. Did they actually SAY they were Muslims or did they just simply look like them? Be honest.

I am truly sorry for what happened to you. If you are absolutely 100% positive that these people were in fact Muslim, then it would take some effort to fight your prejudice.

It's both. They look different, but it's easy to tell when someone's a muslim or not. That's what I meant.
Then you clearly think all Muslims look like something.

Well then, could you define it once more or shall we keep it at "nevermind"?
A pre-judgement based on someone you have never met.
 

Immortalis

Active Member
Welcome to the debate forum.

Thanks man.

That means none will come near you?

Pretty much yeah, if they can avoid me they will.

So, it finally comes out. You were simply bullied by Muslims. Did they actually SAY they were Muslims or did they just simply look like them? Be honest.

I am truly sorry for what happened to you. If you are absolutely 100% positive that these people were in fact Muslim, then it would take some effort to fight your prejudice.

Well, they came from Marrocko, Irak and some other countries, and they were muslims, I'm 100% sure of it. They always forced other Christian kids to say there was only one God, Alla, so yeah..

Then you clearly think all Muslims look like something.

Well maybe I do actually.. They're easy to recognize because of their skin color, you know. I know there are Christian immigrants too so no need to point that out ;) This may be really ignorant, I know, but it's an easy way to just make a quick short summary. Here we have Somalian people and they're pretty much all Muslim, and they're even more extreme with their believes then the ones in Holland, only here they're still a minority in most schools.

A pre-judgement based on someone you have never met.

I do that quiet alot without thinking of it to be honest without paying attention to it, it's really annoying and I'm trying to "un-learn" it.
 

waffle_x_v

Fun stuff
They always forced other Christian kids to say there was only one God, Alla, so yeah..

Force? Whatever you may believe it is in fact against the religion's teachings to force beliefs onto someone else.
I've been reading your comments for quite a while and it seems you're just making sh1t up.
You only make excuses not to be prejudice and on top of that almost everything you said is as ignorant as hell.

Well maybe I do actually.. They're easy to recognize because of their skin color, you know.
You're a fool aren't you? Yes the majority of Muslims may be middle eastern but Islam is a religion not a culture.
Muslims can be black, white, Asian ect. Same goes for middle eastern people, they can be Muslim, Christian, jew, whatever. There is no one culture still defined by only one religion.

I don't know what kind of experience you may have had with Muslims,
but it either seems as if you're exaggerating or you must have done something to make them angry judging by your awfully offensive words.
 

ShinySandshrew

†God Follower†
Force? Whatever you may believe it is in fact against the religion's teachings to force beliefs onto someone else.
Although I can't find anything that says Muslims should force others to convert, I can find a good number of passages that say that Muslims should fight against and conquer non-Muslims. Qu'ran Sura 9:29 says, Muslims are told to "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. " That doesn't sound too happy, now does it?

Furthermore, such places as Sura 9:123, Sura 9:73, and Sura 8:59-60 condone violence against unbelievers. Also a forced conversion is mentioned in Bukhari 59:643.


You're a fool aren't you? Yes the majority of Muslims may be middle eastern but Islam is a religion not a culture.
Muslims can be black, white, Asian ect. Same goes for middle eastern people, they can be Muslim, Christian, jew, whatever. There is no one culture still defined by only one religion.
While I agree that Muslims can come from any ethnic background, what you are forgetting to account for is the ethnic mix of the Muslims in Holland (where Immortalis said he lived). According to this article, in 2006, 38% of Muslims in the Netherlands were from Turkey, 31% were from Morocco, and 26% were of other non-western ethnic origin. That means it is highly likely that Immortalis could tell who was a Muslim and who wasn't by skin tone. That doesn't mean he should be prejudiced against them, though.

I don't know what kind of experience you may have had with Muslims,
but it either seems as if you're exaggerating or you must have done something to make them angry judging by your awfully offensive words.
Exaggerating? Making it up? Why? Because the actions of the Muslims doesn't fit your pre-conceived notions of what Muslims act like? From this direction it looks like you're committing a "No True Muslim" fallacy. You have no right to say that Immortalis is exaggerating or making things up. You have no knowledge of what did or did not happen to him. Furthermore, calling him a fool for judging people is uncalled for. Why? Right at the end of his post, he said that he realized that he judge people without knowing them and...was trying to stop!

I do that quiet alot without thinking of it to be honest without paying attention to it, it's really annoying and I'm trying to "un-learn" it.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
He only said that now. The past few weeks, he was acting proud he even had the belief in the first place.

ShinySandshrew said:
According to this article, in 2006, 38% of Muslims in the Netherlands were from Turkey, 31% were from Morocco, and 26% were of other non-western ethnic origin.
You know the color of these nation's people?
 

Immortalis

Active Member
Force? Whatever you may believe it is in fact against the religion's teachings to force beliefs onto someone else.
I've been reading your comments for quite a while and it seems you're just making sh1t up.
You only make excuses not to be prejudice and on top of that almost everything you said is as ignorant as hell.

It's also against a religion's teachings to hurt/kill people, and it still happens every day. There are many religious wars going on right now, and that's the saddest part of it all.

I don't know what kind of experience you may have had with Muslims,
but it either seems as if you're exaggerating or you must have done something to make them angry judging by your awfully offensive words.

You say you've read all my posts, and you're wondering what kind of experience I have had with Muslims in the past?
Actually, wanna know what schools look like where I lived?
Cops came to our schools once a week to check all the lockers to see if they found any drugs, weapons, illegal stuff etc. (and they never once left barehanded.)
We hade a wh0re house down the street, with a coffee shop right next to it.
+ you had groups everywhere, in the lunchroom it was like: black people on one table, Muslims on another, white people there, Christians here. Almost like a freaking prison man really. And since Muslims were the majority, Christians often got forced into stuff they didn't believe in or whatsoever.
Now tell me again I've made it up.

And what kinda "awfully offensive words" are that, if I may ask?
 

waffle_x_v

Fun stuff
@shinysandshrew Your post is much too tedious for me quote so accept a reply in this form.

1. First of all the the passages you mentioned have to be interpreted precisely meaning that those words were took out of context.
The quaran's text have to be studied accurately a simple translation will lead to misinterpretation.
You're forgetting these passages were revealed in the times of war and these words were only supposed to be used if the said person was completely threatened, such actions are last resorts.

2. Don't you dare call me conceded. I'm a lot of things and I have my faults, but do not call me conceited.
The reason why I thought it was an exaggeration is because the credibility of others on the internet isn't so appealing.
The other reason is all there was coming form this guy was complaining and empathetic sad stories which I frankly don't care much about.
Somebody can write a life story about themselves on the internet but each word may be just be a lie.
I'm not straight up calling this guy a lier this is just what I PERSONALLY believe due to the information that was presented to me.
 
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M4zz

Banned
We hade a wh0re house down the street, with a coffee shop right next to it.
Wh0res + Coffee = Win

@Shiny Sandshrew, please do concider, that over time, a harrassed experience with a certain group can lead to direct emotions. Immortalis also raises a good point. What awful words may I too ask did he post?
 

waffle_x_v

Fun stuff
^ The simple generalizations and the fact the he put a whole group of people in one category is pretty offensive to me. I would list it but I really don't feel like it.
 

M4zz

Banned
^ The simple generalizations and the fact the he put a whole group of people in one category is pretty offensive to me. I would list it but I really don't feel like it.

Henceforth see my comment within my quote. A harrassed experience with a certain group can lead to direct emotions. You cannot blame someone's judgement on what has happened to them.
 

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
The way I see it, Immortalis puts across some unpopular statements not based on phobia, but on his past experiences, which are understandable. He lived in a community where Muslims bullied him, and his uncle died on 9/11. It is prejudice, don't get me wrong, but some people are crossing the line developing a prejudice against Immortalis in return. This is wrong, because contempt begets more contempt. It's crossing over into other threads and it is quite ugly to watch people disagree with blunt facts just because they have a vendetta against the person saying them. Immortalis hasn't been cooperative, but he hasn't belted out a whole bunch of racial slurs either.
 

Profesco

gone gently
Yes, like SunnyC said, Immortalis has formed his opinions based on an unfortunate series of personal events. He is not a 'bad person' simply for reacting to the events fate has thrown at him, and that fact ought well be remembered when communicating with him.

Even more important than understanding that something or someone is wrong is understanding how or why it or he/she is wrong. With that mindset, we can coexist far more peacefully and pleasantly.

First of all the the passages you mentioned have to be interpreted precisely meaning that those words were took out of context.
The quaran's text have to be studied accurately a simple translation will lead to misinterpretation.
You're forgetting these passages were revealed in the times of war and these words were only supposed to be used if the said person was completely threatened, such actions are last resorts.

Like the Bible, and indeed like all religious texts and manifestos, I would wager, passages can be interpreted and contextualized in various ways. Critics of the Quran would do well to recall this useful footnote.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
So what past experience is acceptable? Bullying? One instance of death? Two?

Sure, we can give him the skip if he has a valid reason psychologically speaking, but how do we truly know it can't be helped? What if Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. just said "Okay, I've been threatened by too many white people. **** all of you."
 

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
So what past experience is acceptable? Bullying? One instance of death? Two?

Sure, we can give him the skip if he has a valid reason psychologically speaking, but how do we truly know it can't be helped? What if Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. just said "Okay, I've been threatened by too many white people. **** all of you."

A miracle like Dr. King came about by his own merits and by the grace of God/fate/whatever, not because SPPF watchdogs got together and debated with him until they meticulously taught him what was right and wrong.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
And?

It just goes to show that if he could fight something arguably worse..
 

Lulu_used_SunnyDay

Petal Blizzard
So, why do some people have such a profound hate for religion? I really don't understand it. It helps out culture in many ways, and hurts little. Let's take a look.
The big pros of it are that it instills morals and goodwill and provides mental security/piece of mind

Morals and goodwill?!
If you're lucky enough to believe in a religion that teaches respect and love, that might be true (but still not completely 'cause you're not doing good to others because you want to, but because you fear hell), but what if you're not? What if you're Islamic, and sincerely believe that covering women's bodies completely and putting in prison someone that named her teddybear as your god (this one really happened, no I'm not kidding here) is "good"?

HURTS LITTLE?!
Alright, so you say that all the countless victims of all religion wars throughout history is little. Interesting. This even without counting the ridiculous issue of not teaching Darwin in american schools.
 
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